rugbyunion
Latest News:
We are The Warriors! The Mighty Worcester Warriors!

This message board is for all things Warriors' and Rugby.
When posting please be aware that posts may be read by youngsters and respect other posters.
Click Here for the Message Board Rules


misunderstood
Serious for the pests
misunderstood (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 11:55
This is not good in anyones world

[www.coventrytelegraph.net]



Always misunderstood

 
Offa
Re: Serious for the pests
Offa (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 12:49
I have no idea how serious this is, but many of our fellow posters are well informed about such things and I look forward to their thoughts.

 
usa warrior
Re: Serious for the pests
usa warrior (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 12:57
As detailed in the other thread, the potential threat of a £27 million shortfall on the alleged undervalued sale of the Ricoh could be looming larger!!

They are, as I type, awaiting a verdict from a judge. *Seems this is a written verdict so could take weeks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/06/2018 14:31 by usa warrior.

 
A38
Re: Serious for the pests
A38 (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 13:01
A number of our opposite numbers on the Wasps board has expressed scepticism about the accuracy / import of this and similar reports.

[www.rugbynetwork.net]


See also the Danny Wilson thread where there is overlap.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: Serious for the pests
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 14:36
Quote:
A38
A number of our opposite numbers on the Wasps board has expressed scepticism about the accuracy / import of this and similar reports.
[www.rugbynetwork.net]


See also the Danny Wilson thread where there is overlap.

There are some on the Wasps board who would express scepticism that there was anything wrong if they turned up to a home game to find bailiffs carrying the scoreboard and posts out and their season ticket didn't work in the machine.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
usa warrior
Re: Serious for the pests
usa warrior (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 14:41
Have you any professional knowledge/opinions of the goings on here BB?

 
misunderstood
Re: Serious for the pests
misunderstood (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 19:18
Whilst this article may or may not be accurate
in my world and i am not an accounting professional, this is the equivalent of financial suicide.
Auditors of the scale of PWC do not do this lightly, it is after all their reputation at stake, not that of the client.

discuss......



Always misunderstood

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Serious for the pests
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
28 June, 2018 22:16
In my experience, auditors resigning is code for them basically admitting that they were misled, and fell for it.

Embarrassing for PWC, very bad news indeed for Wasps.

 
FlipFlop
Re: Serious for the pests
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 05:21
.... Wasps Directors have chosen to go elsewhere if they donít believe PwC to be good enough, or PwC have decided to focus on more mainstream Co Audits or had to drop the client due to Audit regulations or......

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Serious for the pests
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 07:32
Quote:
FlipFlop
.... Wasps Directors have chosen to go elsewhere if they donít believe PwC to be good enough, or PwC have decided to focus on more mainstream Co Audits or had to drop the client due to Audit regulations or......

None of which lead to a resignation within an agreed contract. Those things are simply a non-renewal, would not be commented on other than in Waspsí year-end funancials.

No, This is smelly.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Serious for the pests
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 08:05
Quote:
TeflonTed
Quote:
FlipFlop
.... Wasps Directors have chosen to go elsewhere if they donít believe PwC to be good enough, or PwC have decided to focus on more mainstream Co Audits or had to drop the client due to Audit regulations or......

None of which lead to a resignation within an agreed contract. Those things are simply a non-renewal, would not be commented on other than in Waspsí year-end funancials.

No, This is smelly.

Quite - falsified information is as serious as it gets.

And PWC are massive. Absolutely massive - they are unlikely to drop a rugby club as it is non-mainstream.

ETA: A perusal of the Danny Wilson thread shows that PWC have submitted their resignation to companies house and the (publicly available) letter states it is due to falsified records



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/06/2018 08:07 by TVM Rides Again.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Serious for the pests
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 09:43
So in layman's terms what exactly does all of this mean?

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Serious for the pests
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 10:19
Something In Wasps accounts could not be resolved with the supporting documentation (invoices, payment records etc) to the satisfaction of their auditors, who have in turn stated they believe at least elements of these inputs to be falsified.


It really covers a multitude of sins - and we can't guess. All we know is that PWC believe that Wasps have fudged SOMETHING, be it an account, some invoices - whatever - to create a picture of their financial position which does not reflect reality.

We don't know if the alleged activity is significant or minor and what it was designed to achieve. Usually these things either falsely inflate profitability to appease shareholders or increase the value - or inflate costs in order to reduce profitability and the resultant tax burden.


It is likely now, however, that they will come under some pressure - HMRC are like a dog with a bone if they think you've been fudging it. Don't expect a quick resolution however.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 29/06/2018 10:26 by TVM Rides Again.

 
Freypal
Re: Serious for the pests
Freypal (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 11:06
I heard an interesting article on R4 the other morning which was saying the financial watchdogs are currently in a big push to improve the quality of financial auditing following high profile cases like BHS. PWC were one of those named.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Serious for the pests
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 12:07
The auditing culture in the Big 4 has been seen as too cosy for too long

I think you're right and they've decided they need to be seen to be pulling up their socks.

 
usa warrior
Re: Serious for the pests
usa warrior (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 12:46
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Something In Wasps accounts could not be resolved with the supporting documentation (invoices, payment records etc) to the satisfaction of their auditors, who have in turn stated they believe at least elements of these inputs to be falsified.

It really covers a multitude of sins - and we can't guess. All we know is that PWC believe that Wasps have fudged SOMETHING, be it an account, some invoices - whatever - to create a picture of their financial position which does not reflect reality.

We don't know if the alleged activity is significant or minor and what it was designed to achieve. Usually these things either falsely inflate profitability to appease shareholders or increase the value - or inflate costs in order to reduce profitability and the resultant tax burden.



I am most definitely not an accountant, but here's the details from the finance report.

From their accounts...

"During the audit of the draft 2017 Wasps Holdings Ltd Group results it was identified that a shareholder
contribution of £1.1 m had been incorrectly treated as revenue instead of as a capital contribution; and that the
required balance on the interest reserve account had not been maintained. Consequently, the Group had failed
to maintain a ratio of consolidated EBITDAt0 consolidated Finance costs of at least 1.5:1.0 as at 3Qth June
2017, as required by the Wasps Finance plc bond.
Page 3
DIRECTORSí REPORT
FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 2017
As a result of this a proposal was put to Bondholders to waive this breach; to amend the covenant in order to
allow any shareholder contributions to be included within the covenant calculation; and to replenish the interest
reserve account by way of a shareholder contribution. These proposals were approved by the Bondholders on
191h January 2018, with 98.88% of votes cast, voting in favour.
The auditors were also presented with evidence which their testing revealed to have been falsified. Following
the presentation of PwCís findings, the board of directors conducted a broader review of the financial
processes, systems and controls across the Group, which has culminated in the implementation of various
steps to strengthen the robustness of its reporting and accounting procedures. In particular, the Chief Executive
Officer, has final sign-off on the terms and accounting treatment of any revenue contract with a value of in
excess of £100,000 per annum."

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: Serious for the pests
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 16:08
Thanks TVM - be interesting to see how this plays out

 
FlipFlop
Re: Serious for the pests
FlipFlop (IP Logged)
29 June, 2018 16:50
Sports companies are not prestigious for Big4 and increasingly some of the schemes they have to validate within sport ( albeit from Tax Advice of their own firms or others) make these types of orgs less attractive as clients.

It seems clear they are unhappy and have voted with their feet. Even Prof Indemnity Insurance only gets you so far, as as TVM suggests this could be a nudge towards demonstrating its Audit integrity to the peers that be given that PwC have been in amongst previous investigations over business failures and their roles in and around.

Reviewing client portfolio or enforced move away is less probable but not out of the question.

 
LiveInHope
Re: Serious for the pests
LiveInHope (IP Logged)
01 July, 2018 08:20
I donít think itís any more serious for the pests than any other rugby club.
There is a lot of questions being asked about the big 4 auditors following Carillon & a report showing 30% of their audits are worthless.
Currently as I understand it, all auditors, are reviewing their clients, what they have been told & thus the assumption made.
Feel a bit sorry for Wasps as no doubt it was very common practice a couple of years ago to be creative, but in todayís post Carillon itís not. I donít think they will be the last rugby or football club to lose their auditor and would not be surprised if several clubs are reviewing their returns and proactively going to their auditors with revisions.
What does make Wasp situation interesting is their bond, but would not be surprised if this is underwritten to another company.

As I understand it there are several rugby clubs where their sugar daddy over pays for sponsorship or other services to increase the turnover & thus income of the club. Whereas others just give soft loans.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Serious for the pests
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
01 July, 2018 08:24
Sane comments as ever LiH, good to hear from you.

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: Serious for the pests
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
01 July, 2018 15:51
Before my father's untimely death in 1999 he was working for PWC ,known as Coopers and Lybrand Deloitte back then.



Eats,Shoots And Leaves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2018 21:57 by w4rriorz1980.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: Serious for the pests
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
02 July, 2018 08:03
Were Delloite's not their own thing? I remember when Coopers and Lybrand and Price Waterhouse.



Re: what has been posted above -it sounds maybe like a bit of a fudge of procedure regarding refinancing - but sounds like it is all between inter related companies - so no third party affected?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Serious for the pests
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
02 July, 2018 08:12
[quote TVM Rides Again]Were Delloite's not their own thing? I remember when Coopers and Lybrand and Price Waterhouse.

Coopers & Lybrand and the UK firm of Deloitte Haskins & Sells adopted the business name Coopers & Lybrand Deloitte from 15 January 1990 and merged on 29 April 1990.

July 1st 1998 Price Waterhouse and Coopers & Lybrand merged to form PwC.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Serious for the pests
Abberley (IP Logged)
02 July, 2018 19:15
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Were Delloite's not their own thing?

Private Eye frequently referred to Dolittle Plunder and Grabbit, which ISTR referred at the time to something like Deloitte Plender Griffiths?

 
PMB
Re: Serious for the pests
PMB (IP Logged)
04 July, 2018 15:04
Surely not the "Big Four" actually starting to do the work properly that they have charged millions for in the past? Who would have thought it.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?