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usa warrior
CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 14:16
[www.rugbypass.com]

Club coffers look to be boosted!!

Interesting to see how this takes shape over the next few months.

 
Ronster
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Drahm for England (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 14:51
I would imagine ring-fencing will be firmly back on the table if this pans out. The windfall to clubs will dwarf anything Championship clubs can budget for effectively rendering promotion & relegation null and void.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 14:52
Has to be good for the game and the clubs.

This could be a step change in proffessional rugby union in England.

JP

 
centrethere
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
centrethere (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 15:10
Good news money coming in but after prem rugby ltd take their cut and you divide by 12 it would probably cover our annual losses for 1 year?

 
usa warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 15:17
Yep, wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that ringfencing was a part of this deal in some capactity. We've now got 13 teams who's earning potential could be significantly boosted through various streams.

Question is will CVC want them all in one league? Are they a more valuable commodity like that?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 15:22
16 p shares 3 to prem rugby 1 to each to the 13 clubs, could be somwhere in the region og £15million to each club.

JP

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 15:48
Remember that this was the organisation that ripped up the history book with F1 and sold races to the highest bidder (we nearly lost the British GP). They will have no problem with a 12 or 10 team league if that suits them,

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 15:56
Well if they want to reduce to 10 clubs it is going to cost them a fortune in compensation to the remaining 3 clubs

CVC increased the F1 races grew the worldwide support base and the value of F1, I dont believe shrinking is their mantra. Growth and increased value certainly is.

Maybe the embryoniv starting of a European League??

JP

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 18:01
Well let’s hope they don’t go the same way as F1 when it comes to admission prices. (I know the clubs currently set their own, but who knows?) a decent seat in the Stowe Corner B grandstand for the 2019 Silverstone Grand Prix (Sunday race day only) is £245...(plus £10.50 handling fee).

 
Patgadd
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Patgadd (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 18:39
£245 to watch an event that surely vies with synchronised swimming as the world's most boring sport - makes my season ticket seem cheap!

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 20:06
Remember they only have a 30% share and will only have a say on the commercial side of things. Think the league is pretty safe and will largely continue as it is.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 20:42
Not sure how safe the league is. In the past, when a few clubs have wanted to do something controversial the majority have been able to keep them in check.

If CVC have 30% then they only need the support of 3-4 clubs to have more than 50% of the shares in a vote, unless they have a lesser class of share/only the clubs have voting rights.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 21:27
The PRL have come out and said they will run the league. Surely that means promotion amd relegation?

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 21:42
Quote:
WorcesterSauce
The PRL have come out and said they will run the league. Surely that means promotion amd relegation?

Pay them enough money and they will do as they are told ..

 
inatthebreakdown
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
inatthebreakdown (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 21:55
Quote:
WorcesterSauce
The PRL have come out and said they will run the league. Surely that means promotion amd relegation?

It's clearly the thin end of the wedge. Anyone thinking a body is going to invest £200-million and not have an opinion on how the league is run, needs to think again.

 
usa warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
27 November, 2018 22:09
Bit more detail here. Looks like commercial only.

[www.theguardian.com]

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 00:10
Of course PRL will still run the league and the Professional Game Board will continue to carry out its role.

The point is that there is now a significant minority shareholder in PRL that isn't one of the clubs. Presumably, that shareholder will also now have at least one seat on the Board of PRL. If so, whether that Board member will be able to vote on decisions affecting the structure of the league, promotion/relegation, etc, isn't really covered in the Guardian article.

Even if the deal with CVC is such that they do not have any direct influence over PRL's decisions, it is easy to see how they could have an indirect influence.

Let's suppose CVC go to the market and come back with, say, a proposed offer for a new TV deal or league sponsorship of £x million per annum but they state the offer could be worth £1.5x million if the league moved to a 14 team league without promotion/relegation from/to the Championship? What about moving more games abroad, to developing markets, like with F1? What about the timing or structure of the season, or when games are played, to be more attractive to other tv markets?

I guess the real bellweather of the deal will be Bruce Craig's reaction: if he's enthusiastic then it's probably a bad thing. (Sm14)



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 05:15
Quote:
TeflonTed
Well let’s hope they don’t go the same way as F1 when it comes to admission prices. (I know the clubs currently set their own, but who knows?) a decent seat in the Stowe Corner B grandstand for the 2019 Silverstone Grand Prix (Sunday race day only) is £245...(plus £10.50 handling fee).

I think prices are set by the promoting clubs still (British Racing Drivers Club in Silverstones case) - however, they all pay Liberty Media a fee to get the circus to come to them.

So prices vary pretty significantly depending on the race, i understand.

You can still get a day at Shelsley Walsh for £16 or so mind - worth it for the commentary alone winking smiley

 
usa warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 07:02
It's difficult isn't it. As BB states, they will have influence for sure.

Is that such a terrible thing if they can make our, and all, clubs more sustainable in the longer term?

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 08:16
Quote:
usa warrior
It's difficult isn't it. As BB states, they will have influence for sure.
Is that such a terrible thing if they can make our, and all, clubs more sustainable in the longer term?

Depends if half of “our clubs” games are moved to Dubai or whether all of our prices are suddenly whacked up to £100+ a game... i can’t see this being good for the standard working fan, to be honest.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 08:38
I think the last two posts, by usa and Sauce, neatly encapsulate the points I was trying to make, only rather more succinctly.

Given the amounts being lost each season across the league as a whole, for the clubs to become more sustainable, even profitable, someone is going to have to pay.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 10:07
People seem to be focussed on attendance and tickets.

That is where clubs make some extra bunce - but in football and formula 1 (to cite two examples as 1 close cousin and 1 former CVC business) the BIG money comes from TV rights.

That will be the thrust of the push. Actual matchday attendance is a very small slice of the pie for those two so that is what I think will happen

 
BishBash
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
BishBash (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 10:30
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
People seem to be focussed on attendance and tickets.
That is where clubs make some extra bunce - but in football and formula 1 (to cite two examples as 1 close cousin and 1 former CVC business) the BIG money comes from TV rights.

That will be the thrust of the push. Actual matchday attendance is a very small slice of the pie for those two so that is what I think will happen

It's a shame cricket went chasing £TV.00, viewing figures nosedived. To build the sport and the following you need to get people watching and temp kids to take it up. TMS is great for cricket coverage but I can't see many kids tuning into the radio, same with RU, it needs more free to air terrestrial TV coverage, whether it's Premiership Trophy, ECC or Championship, build the support and then charge for Premiership.

BB

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 11:05
Professional Rugby cannot be allowed to wither on the vine.

We have to drive the income streams, to give it away to "free to air" services would kill the clubs.

We have over 500 kids on a Sunday playing rugby, this is what we have to grow actual kids participation not sitting watching.

If the new owners can encourage, invest and increase their participation we are may get into that "Virtuous Circle" we are are searching for.

JP

 
Freypal
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Freypal (IP Logged)
28 November, 2018 16:17
I agree with the points above regarding the main income potential streams being through advertising and tv rights. In a way, the risk of rugby ending up like cricket is reduced as the majority of professional club games are already on subscription services. I guess CVC believe they can do a better job of selling the advertising potential of the sport to increase the value of future TV deals.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Abberley (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 10:29
There are some telling observations in the Grauniad article quoted above by @USA Warrior, but an earlier piece by them, prior to the rejected takeover bid, is probably still relevant.

Quote:
Grauniad - September

The then deputy team principal of Force India, Bob Fernley, accused CVC during that time of “raping the sport”. In 2016 he summed up everything abut the firm’s relationship with F1 in a single sentence. “All their actions have been taken to extract as much money from the sport as possible and put as little in as possible,” he said.

With virtually all Premiership clubs losing money and in debt, this looks like a fire sale. The one-off £20m windfall might might clear some owners' current debts but in returm for a massive gamble on future viability.

CVC would need to almost double TV revenues etc. just to reinstate the immediate 30% dilution of Club's income from PRL.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 10:57
They did ok with F1, why not with rugby nationally a bigger sport than F1

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Abberley (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 11:34
Quote:
Faithful_City
They did ok with F1, why not with rugby nationally a bigger sport than F1

CVC did more than OK from F1, but I'm a Warriors ST holder, not a CVC shareholder.

Quote:
ibid

When they did sell, F1 was valued at £8bn but the sport was poorer...

...The hosting fees for race promoters rose exponentially as state-backed venues willing to pay a fortune for the PR value of hosting F1 left the classic European tracks repeatedly making a loss and, in cases such as Silverstone and Monza, in danger of bankruptcy...

...Good numbers for CVC but not so the dwindling worldwide audience that has fallen by 137m since 2010....

...The pursuit of profit may also have led to failure of governance, so profound that in 2016 the drivers took the unprecedented step of openly criticising the way the sport was run...

 
usa warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 11:52
What was their ownership model in F1?

 
Sutton Warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Sutton Warrior (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 12:08
The underlying problem is that professional rugby only continues because of the massive input from the club owners. At the moment the spectator numbers are so low as to make anything more than minimum wage a bit of an aspiration for the players ( I exaggerate but you know what i mean) so its about TV and commercial revenue.I don't have the figures but is the live gate for games any different to 10 years ago - even if you include the odd bumper crowd at twickers etc. CVC are not Father Christmas and will want a return on their investment but they have a greater interest in gross income to PRL growing than one club has so it could be a win:win.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 15:15
Quote:
usa warrior
What was their ownership model in F1?

Without looking this up (so it may be wrong!)

They owned the majority share (since sold to Liberty media) in Formula One Group (formerly FOCA - for those in the know). They are responsible for the promotion and the commercial rights of the sport. That is to say, it owns the intellectual property (including all the TV rights), and the contracts to host races - as well as marketing the sport as a whole.

The FIA still sanctions and administers the sport - and is what gives it its credibility as a world championship etc - don;t think they own any of it though.

 
chastt
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
chastt (IP Logged)
29 November, 2018 18:28
CVC bought the Commercial Rights of F1 from Bernie Eccelstone's family trust, and then employed him to run it for them.
They built up several income streams,
1) TV rights
2) Hosting Fees (this is the huge amount of money the local circuit/promoter/Government would pay CVC in order to host a GP -it was then up to the circuit/promoter/Government to sell tickets at whatever price they could -the ticket price never had anything to do with CVC)
3) Circuit signage, again colossal amounts of money
4) Hospitality -try £5000/ticket
....and all they had to do to earn this money was to make sure that the race teams turned up with the superstar drivers...and all they had to do for this to happen was to pay the top 3 teams (Ferrari, Mercedes & Red Bull) enough money to stop them forming a breakaway series.
With Ferrari and two decent competitors signed up the other teams were then given Hobson's choice. Take part in F1 but only receive 1/3 of the money of the top teams or go and do something else with their 500-employees and multi-million pound factories.

Somehow I don't think they CVC will choose the Warriors to be one of the favoured top teams. Bath, Harlequins and Leicester would be the three I'd choose if it were my money.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 07:38
Well - here's the thing - and its why Rugby and F1 are different beasts.

In rugby - there are 12 teams, each playing each other home and away in 6 seperate games a week - and so 132 games in total a year.

In Formula one the 22 teams - all essentially playing in the same game in different locations, 19 or 20 times a year (or whatever the absurd number is now - and I say that as a genuine fanatic of the sport).

These venues can therefore all bid to host the show -as teams don't really have homes (per se).

I can see the 'risk' of games abroad - but ultimately all the biggest sports franchises int he world still operate home and away fixtures, with all teams having regular homes, which are the club's financial domain, not that of the league.

So the risk of ever spiraling hosting fees a la formula one as venues duke it out to host the circus is not part of the business model - as its a different kettle of fish.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Fiver (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 07:52
I wonder if those matches in the USA did anything to help the Premiership?

When the NFL rocks up at Wembley the stadium gets filled with 90,000 fans and keeps interest going in the sport. The stadiums in the USA weren't full for the rugby matches (just 6000 in an 18,500 seater stadium in Philadelphia). Considering the larger population and smaller stadiums used, that's just poor.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 07:59
Quote:
Fiver
I wonder if those matches in the USA did anything to help the Premiership?
When the NFL rocks up at Wembley the stadium gets filled with 90,000 fans and keeps interest going in the sport. The stadiums in the USA weren't full for the rugby matches (just 6000 in an 18,500 seater stadium in Philadelphia). Considering the larger population and smaller stadiums used, that's just poor.

I think there's a cultural thing there. The UK looks to America as things that are modern and cool. America are rather more culturally insular smiling smiley

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Fiver (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 08:09
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Quote:
Fiver
I wonder if those matches in the USA did anything to help the Premiership?
When the NFL rocks up at Wembley the stadium gets filled with 90,000 fans and keeps interest going in the sport. The stadiums in the USA weren't full for the rugby matches (just 6000 in an 18,500 seater stadium in Philadelphia). Considering the larger population and smaller stadiums used, that's just poor.

I think there's a cultural thing there. The UK looks to America as things that are modern and cool. America are rather more culturally insular smiling smiley

As such, what was the point of going? It seemed doomed to fail from what I could see.

Would PRL be better placed taking the roadshow to other countries where there is a less insular outlook? If so, where are these countries and would they be interested in buying our TV rights?

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 08:56
There isnt enough clout to take it anywhere in my opinion. The reason NFL works is because the NFL is a huge world wide brand. Premiership rugby isnt and neither are any of the teams within it. As has been said the US experiment was always destined to fail.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 09:02
Which countries may wish to watch the English Premiership

Argentina
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
Japan
USA

Possibly

Russia
Romania
Ukraine
Georgia

For a few

We have so many international players playing in the Premiership and if we had 14 Clubs we could even have more to make it even more interesting for other countries to follow the competition

Maybe expand to the British Premiership with 2 divisions

JP

 
samlee99
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
samlee99 (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 13:33
Whatever is done will be done for money first and rugby second.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 16:39
Quote:
samlee99
Whatever is done will be done for money first and rugby second.

Welcome to the world of demanding players of sufficient quality that they need to be full time players and expecting millionaires to bank roll peoples weekend viewing habits.

It’s easy to have ideals when you aren’t picking up the tab

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 17:39
On a related topic - jersey reds have to rely on a government handout to survive the season .

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 18:29
Deleted post



Eats,Shoots And Leaves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/11/2018 21:00 by w4rriorz1980.

 
w4rriorz1980
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
w4rriorz1980 (IP Logged)
30 November, 2018 18:37
Quote:
Garym
On a related topic - jersey reds have to rely on a government handout to survive the season .
[www.bbc.co.uk]
Quite.
The difference between our Championship and the French equivalent (Pro D2) is astronomical.
I know the subject has been touched on before and there are a multitude of reasons why our Championship is not like the Pro D2 but if the French can get their 2nd tier right,why can't we?
I know we're the richest union (although aren't the RFU in financial trouble?) but money isn't everything and obviously doesn't get you a fully professional English Championship.
Didn't Steve Brown step down because of differences relating to RFU finances?



Eats,Shoots And Leaves

 
samlee99
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
samlee99 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2018 11:39
Quote:
TVM Rides Again
Quote:
samlee99
Whatever is done will be done for money first and rugby second.

Welcome to the world of demanding players of sufficient quality that they need to be full time players and expecting millionaires to bank roll peoples weekend viewing habits.

It’s easy to have ideals when you aren’t picking up the tab

That might be you world but it's not mine.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
01 December, 2018 12:45
Yes but is it the "real World"?

JP

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Fiver (IP Logged)
01 December, 2018 12:49
Quote:
Faithful_City
Yes but is it the "real World"?
JP

I think it's the bit where you have to do stuff for yourself and it costs a fortune.

 
usa warrior
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
usa warrior (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 07:07
CVC vote happening today.

"The Premiership clubs are expected to agree to sell a minority stake of around 30% to CVC Capital Partners when they put the £240m bid to a vote at Tuesday’s board meeting."

[www.theguardian.com]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 09:34
They refused £275million for 51% which is £161million for 30% so £250million seems like a much better offer all round

About £15million per club and £45million to Prem Rugby Ltd - kerching!!!

No brainer.

JP

 
A38
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
A38 (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 09:51
Well, I think that it may actually be a "brainer".

We will have to see what the other side of the deal looks like before coming to any conclusion, I suggest.

CVC will want a return for their money. It's how it will do this is the big question, as is whether it will diminish the clubs' commercial returns in the medium / long term.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 10:23
Kerching in the short term.

Longer term pain will follow as CVC scoop up revenue.

Interesting article in TRP this week.

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 10:37
Quote:
TeflonTed
........
Interesting article in TRP this week.

Which states ....

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 13:10
You’ll have to invest in a copy Gary!

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 14:41
Quote:
TeflonTed
You’ll have to invest in a copy Gary!
well thanks for nothing, about as much use as a chocolate fireplace - we will have to take your word for it

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 17:38
Well, it’s a bit hard to précis a full page article and a well argued reader’s letter!

Nick Cain reports on Nigel Melville’s comments re. relegation and restructuring, the key point being Melville saying :-

“I think expansion (is the best way). If you expand, you have to into a conference structure....you would go to 14 or 16 teams....two eights would give you a true geographic spread...you’d have to divide the money by 16, which makes a difference”

Makes a difference....that’s for sure!

A reader makes some good points in a long letter, arguing that the CVC deal will result in a one-off payment to clubs, but will in the future take its share of cash distribution resulting in significant reduction in future payments to the clubs.

 
gmem
Re: CVC Buy a "Substantial Minority" of Prem Rugby
Garym (IP Logged)
11 December, 2018 21:44
Thanks .... the précis helps


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