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MESSAGES->author
13 team premiership with immediate effect?
IanRed (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 17:31
According to mail online

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

 
Stephen Abootman
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Stephen Abootman (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 17:43
What chance of that meeting happening if we'd gone down I wonder.

Anyway, 13 teams with a play-off at the end of the season would be fine with me.

 
A38
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
A38 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 18:42
Timing is right with the 12 th place in the Premiership decided.

Money will be the driver here - particularly increased funding for the Championship.

The Newcastle board mentions an article in the Telegraph which has much the same story.

 
kiddykid
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
kiddykid (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 19:18
I have never quite got my head around the fact that 13 clubs hold Prem shares - but only 12 can play!! It couldn't happen anywhere else......could it?

A 13 - strong Prem with a play off? Yup, it could work. Let's try it and pray that we are not the 13th!

 
Abmatt
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Abmatt (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 19:34
Get it done and put this to bed.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 20:01
Really bad “solution” to the problem, this.

If they want to shut up shop, then p1ss thousands of fans off and shut up shop. If they want to keep the league open, then just leave it open.

Don’t bring in an end of season play off that would mean:

A- Neither the Championship team nor the 13th Premiership team would be able to recruit until June
B - The relegated Premiership side would very possibly go bust, due to the fact that they wouldn’t then come back up.

Imagine if we finished 13th and got relegated, only to find us winning the Championship by a landslide by then facing Leicester home and away to get promoted. We wouldn’t get near to winning and we’d then be screwed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2019 23:34 by WorcesterSauce.

 
A38
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
A38 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 21:23
WS: I believe that your point A shouldn't have a double negative. But that's being picky. You are quite right.

What we don't also know is what would happen to the parachute payment.But you are quite right again. If a Championship team, having been a Premiership team, could not get back to the Premiership then a great deal of rationalisation would be required.

 
Stephen Abootman
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Stephen Abootman (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 21:45
Quote:
WorcesterSauce
Don’t bring in an end of season play off that would mean:

A- Neither the Championship team and 13th Premiership team couldn’t recruit until June
B - The relegated Premiership side would very possibly go bust, due to the fact that they wouldn’t then come back up.

Imagine if we finished 13th and got relegated, only to find us winning the Championship by a landslide by then facing Leicester home and away to get promoted. We wouldn’t get near to winning and we’d then be screwed.

Don't quite follow the logic there. We rarely know what league we'll be in until about May anyway but still manage to recruit well beforehand. And if Leicester fall so far that they can't get more points in the league than Ealing or whoever, I don't think we should be overly concerned.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
12 May, 2019 23:37
A38 - picky but right, it made little sense!

SA - quite right, although i think we do struggle with recruitment because we are constantly in the relegation battle this probably wouldn’t change by much. My point was more that this would be extended to the Championship... i very much doubt that London Irish would have snapped up their already announced players if they had a play off vs Newcastle still to come, for instance.

 
dudleywarrior88
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
dudleywarrior88 (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 00:02
If anyone other than Ealing got promoted to the premiership they would likely go bankrupt based on current financial models or wouldn't be able to sign any quality players therefore finishing bottom and probably lose the play off anyway. By only allowing clubs with enough up front capital to run the club in the premiership would probably be a requirement of promotion.

Equally no grounds in the championship other than Leeds would meet premiership standards.

Surely if one of the 13 dropped out they would use any of the above to prevent the championship team getting promotion. This would be a great way to close up shop by not actually stopping relegation but making in difficult for the championship team to actually get promoted.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Fiver (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 08:13
Ringfencing, but without actually ringfencing, was tried years ago with the aim to keep out the likes of us and Rotherham. It didn't work, both Exeter and Warriors built the stadiums necessary and got into the big time. Welsh needed a legal team, but in fairness should have taken the hint.

The simple fact is that the finances simply don't add up for promotion and relegation anymore. It doesn't matter what a handful of fans really want. Clubs will start going bust if we carry on with a 12 team premiership. England players aren't getting the proper development because you panic and sign a southern hemisphere player instead. Why did Sale fly in the Du Preez brothers? Why didn't they pluck from the academy like they do in Ireland?

How many fans will leave if we lose promotion/relegation? Hardly any most likely, you might even gain a few if the likes of Worcester can now sign some big name players. You might even get a broader spread of England players around more teams. That will increase attendances also.

The facts are what they are. Whether you like it or not, it's inevitable. As soon as Newcastle got relegated CVC were always going to try something to keep them up. The money dictates that you need a presence across as much of the country as possible. As such, I'm not so sure they'd have worried about us. Nothing personal, it's just geography.

 
TVM Rides Again....Again
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 08:27
Quote:
Stephen Abootman
What chance of that meeting happening if we'd gone down I wonder.

Exactly the same. Moving on.

 
Malvern Man
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Malvern Man (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 10:58
This seems quite sensible to me. There are 13 clubs with professional facilities, players and aspirations, so why shouldn't they be the Premiership. There should always be a chink in the door for any rising Championship club, and the two-leg play-off offers this.

In the professional era, two clubs have broken through. Exeter have risen to the heights and Worcester have hung on, only just at times. Would either have beaten the bottom Premiership club to get promoted? Exeter certainly would, and I reckon we'd have got there in the end.

Another advantage of a bigger league is an increased number of proper fixtures against cup games.

The struggle at the bottom of the league would still be fierce. Would anybody fancy the play-off? I don't think so.

 
Devonianwarrior
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Devonianwarrior (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 11:57
Exeter wouldn't have been in the play off in the proposed scenario as they finished 2nd to Bristol by 4 points but beat them in the play offs the year they came up.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 12:33
Quote:
Devonianwarrior
Exeter wouldn't have been in the play off in the proposed scenario as they finished 2nd to Bristol by 4 points but beat them in the play offs the year they came up.

Ditto for us the last time we came up, under Ryan. Bristol finished top that season, too.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
usa warrior
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
usa warrior (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 12:35
Announcement from HQ this afternoon...

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Faithful_City (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 17:19
A bit late then??

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 18:11
Quote:
Fiver
Ringfencing, but without actually ringfencing, was tried years ago with the aim to keep out the likes of us and Rotherham. It didn't work, both Exeter and Warriors built the stadiums necessary and got into the big time. Welsh needed a legal team, but in fairness should have taken the hint.
The simple fact is that the finances simply don't add up for promotion and relegation anymore. It doesn't matter what a handful of fans really want. Clubs will start going bust if we carry on with a 12 team premiership. England players aren't getting the proper development because you panic and sign a southern hemisphere player instead. Why did Sale fly in the Du Preez brothers? Why didn't they pluck from the academy like they do in Ireland?

How many fans will leave if we lose promotion/relegation? Hardly any most likely, you might even gain a few if the likes of Worcester can now sign some big name players. You might even get a broader spread of England players around more teams. That will increase attendances also.

The facts are what they are. Whether you like it or not, it's inevitable. As soon as Newcastle got relegated CVC were always going to try something to keep them up. The money dictates that you need a presence across as much of the country as possible. As such, I'm not so sure they'd have worried about us. Nothing personal, it's just geography.

So what i’m taking from this is....

London Welsh should’ve taken the hint the big boys didn’t want the nasty little championship team in the Prem and bowed down and not accepted promotion. They should not have then not taken the relevant governing body to court (and won) and not been the victim of a terrible fraud offence whereby the perpetrator ended up in prison...

That “only a handful” of fans want promotion and relegation despite the fact that loads of polls on social media suggest it is very much the majority, including many many players and journalists.

That clubs will definitely start going bust from now on if promotion/relegation remains.

That ring fencing will mean world class overseas players like Hougaard being blocked by a substandard scrum half, in the name of them being English (essentially we all become England feeder clubs).

That Worcester would somehow be suddenly able to sign some “big name players” (but of course they wouldn’t be able to be overseas players)...

That somehow these big name English players we sign will increase attendances and that attendances would most likely increase, despite the fact that our biggest attendances, historically are almost always when they have a lot riding on them in terms of going up or down.

That had we gone down we’d have been thrown under the bus by CVC


The facts are what they are, though...

 
usa warrior
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
usa warrior (IP Logged)
13 May, 2019 21:23
Quote:
Faithful_City
A bit late then??

Announced that they were giving 1000 tickets to military families for the Prem final. Laudable, but not sure that’s what was expected.

 
PMB
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
PMB (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 08:20
Sadly I think that this will happen sooner rather than later although you could argue that the disparity in funding between the championship and prem is part ring fencing anyway. Talk of promoted sides to the prem facing going bust is a tad harsh, how many existing prem side are "trading while insolvent"? Only Exeter make a profit the others rely on funding from elsewhere writing off debts on a regular basis.

Incidentally, the Sarries limited company "scam" seems to have gone very quiet, is that the sound of carpets being lifted and brushes at the ready that I can hear?

If ring fencing existed now how much interest would there have been in the recent rounds of matches?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
West Brom Warrior (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 09:07
I am not against a monetary pause on relegation as there are no clubs in the championship other than London Irish who have the facilities to play in the premiership and when Newcastle are in the championship next year it will only be them. The key to doing it right is to use the pause to help form a proper championship league with decent funding and investment in facilities. The RFU needs to get its head out of the sand and help develop and grow rugby union.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Fiver (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 09:28
Sadly Saucie, I think you missed my point entirely.

Welsh should have taken the hint that they didn't have the financials to compete. At no point did I suggest it was personal.

As for a world class scrum half, who knows as most of our English players don't get the chance to develop properly. In any case, there would still be foreign signings, but perhaps less of them. The Irish teams still sign foreign players but perhaps they go for those of higher quality and ignore foreign 'squad' players.

As for names to attract fans, not all fans are hugely knowledgeable. I'm sure they've heard of the England players, but perhaps not that guy who plays for Samoa, or has 3 caps for South Africa. If the England team players are spread across the premiership then I think more fans will come to watch what they might consider to be 'their' players.

As for attendances due to a relegation battle, we get one or two big crowds a year because of this. I could pull out all of the figures across the season but frankly would be wasting my time. We already know what they are.

Never mind though, social media polls have spoken, and they're, as we all know, fact.

 
Malvern Man
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Malvern Man (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 09:58
Going back to the point of the two-leg play-off offering a chance to ambitious interlopers, in Worcester's break-through year 2004 Rotherham were the relegated team with no wins and three bonus points to show for the season. We had a 100% record in the Championship that year and I reckon we'd have beaten them easily.

Exeter did come second the year they won the play-offs, but I guess they'd have made it the following year.

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 10:00
Quote:
Fiver
Sadly Saucie, I think you missed my point entirely.
Welsh should have taken the hint that they didn't have the financials to compete. At no point did I suggest it was personal.

As for a world class scrum half, who knows as most of our English players don't get the chance to develop properly. In any case, there would still be foreign signings, but perhaps less of them. The Irish teams still sign foreign players but perhaps they go for those of higher quality and ignore foreign 'squad' players.

As for names to attract fans, not all fans are hugely knowledgeable. I'm sure they've heard of the England players, but perhaps not that guy who plays for Samoa, or has 3 caps for South Africa. If the England team players are spread across the premiership then I think more fans will come to watch what they might consider to be 'their' players.

As for attendances due to a relegation battle, we get one or two big crowds a year because of this. I could pull out all of the figures across the season but frankly would be wasting my time. We already know what they are.

Never mind though, social media polls have spoken, and they're, as we all know, fact.

No point missing here.

''Taken the hint that they didn't have the financials to compete'' Again, taken the hint that the Premiership didn't want a little Championship club to break the cartel. Why didn't they ''have the financials''? Was it because they were forced to move to Oxford or was it because they were forced to pay into the academy pot despite not being allowed an academy? Or was it because they were forced to sign players in June? They took the PRL to court AND WON. The hint that they didn't have the financials to compete was the very flawed laws that implicitly made it unfair on them/any other promoted team.

As before, if you want a league of substandard English players instead of your Hougaards, Reinachs, Corderros, Liam Williams so be it, but that is not the way to a successful or exciting league and that is not what the Premiership as grown with. To compare an England player with a 3 Cap Samoan clearly shows the limitations of your point. Let's compare like for like, a 0 cap England player would be known just as much as a 0 cap Samoan player.

As for this bizarre ''England players spread'' theory', I'm really not sure where this has been dreamt up from. At my last count we had the most players we have ever had either in or on the cusp of the England squad. All whilst being 10th/11th in the league. Perhaps you have evidence to suggest otherwise, but I don't see attendances rocketing to see ''our'' Ted Hill, or ''our'' Ollie Lawrence, or dare I say ''our'' Ben Teo. Do you?

Yes, we get 1 or 2 big crowds a year. 1 or 2 more than we'd get without, and who knows how many 100 are swollen onto our general match day attendances due to big games we have to win. We will never know, but you only have to look at media interest to see that relegation battles sell papers and engage the public. It isn't outlandish to suggest that this interest translates into attendances.

I'm using polls and facts to back up my point as well as case law, but I'm yet to see literally anything to back up your own argument. Social media polls are clearly not gospel, but when they are done by the lead broadcaster (BT Sport), and have thousands and thousands of votes it would be unwise to discount completely, but I guess if you have nothing to back up your argument with, every straw will be clutched at. As you say ''only a handful'' of fans want promotion and relegation. I'm guessing those 26,000 who watched Worcester vs Bristol in the Championship final back in 2015 only constitute ''a handful'' - big hand you've got

 
WorcesterSauce
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
WorcesterSauce (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 10:01
Quote:
Malvern Man
Going back to the point of the two-leg play-off offering a chance to ambitious interlopers, in Worcester's break-through year 2004 Rotherham were the relegated team with no wins and three bonus points to show for the season. We had a 100% record in the Championship that year and I reckon we'd have beaten them easily.
Exeter did come second the year they won the play-offs, but I guess they'd have made it the following year.

This is where my worry comes in with this play off system. If we (or whoever) do end up going down, it could be ridiculously hard to get back up. What then?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Fiver (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 11:46
Well Saucie, you clearly have your views and nothing I ever say will change your mind. That's fine, if we all agreed it would be dull.

My main concern is this, London Welsh don't exist anymore, or certainly not in the way they used to if indeed they are still playing (I've not bothered to look it up). They couldn't afford to play in the premiership. It doesn't matter what the legal battles were or weren't, they lost every game because they couldn't afford the squad etc... and and after relegation couldn't afford to exist anymore. As facts go, I'm pretty sure this is one of them. This is a big risk in the modern era for all clubs, even for clubs who 'currently' have a wealthy backer.

As for the play off system, I don't like it because we just go back to the same situation we had before regarding recruitment and planning.

The simple fact is there is no ideal situation, which I guess is why we're not all in agreement.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 11:58
Fiver, for your interest, London Welsh are in good shape as a club, just won the M’sex Bowl Cup by beating Finsbury Park last month.

The professional club was disbanded in Jan 2017, and reconstituted as an amateur club, currently playing in London 3 North West league, and still based at Old Deer Park.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Fiver (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 12:01
Cheers Ted. Good to hear they didn't completely disappear.

 
Brummagem Bertie
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 18:20
Quote:
TeflonTed
Fiver, for your interest, London Welsh are in good shape as a club, ... currently playing in London 3 North West league... .

Kind of, sort of, but not any more.

Their season has already ended and they finished top, comfortably, so have earnt promotion.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: 13 team premiership with immediate effect?
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
14 May, 2019 18:41
Quote:
Brummagem Bertie
Quote:
TeflonTed
Fiver, for your interest, London Welsh are in good shape as a club, ... currently playing in London 3 North West league... .

Kind of, sort of, but not any more.

Their season has already ended and they finished top, comfortably, so have earnt promotion.

Even better then!


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