Comes on, kicks away all good possession, and then when he has a chance to set up a line-out deep down into the French half with the final penalty, he bunts it pathetically 15m.

My 95 year old granny could do better than that over-rated waste of space...

I suppose you are allowed to say that. If I had said it ....

The game itself was weird. France don't play well when there is a lot to lose.

Now, I have a moan. is this ok?

Brian Moore spent the entire game moaning about the (admittedly pretty dreadful) NZ referee. One of his major moans is not binding. The English front row didn't bind yet Moore moaned about the penalties. His anguish at the badness of the refereeing was far, far more intense when England suffered. In fact he often missed English misdemeanours.

The better team lost and I as a neutral would have been far more unhappy about this if Moore had not been such a prat.

France seem to get referees to favour them, I recall an occasion when ........

Could she kick and penalty on wet ground from the halfway touchline??????? I doubt it. It's easy to knock, if he'd dropped a goal to win the match you'd have been singing with the rest of us.

OMG, I agree with Rara!

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Saint Morrissey
Could she kick and penalty on wet ground from the halfway touchline??????? I doubt it.

No need, she'd have gone for touch and given quick ball to the backline who would have gone under the posts for a try, putting England in front and changing the tone of the game.

Wilkinson was exposed (again) tonight, his booting away of the ball is unexcusable.

The bind is almost impossible with these really tight (wet) shirts, surely the front row need a specially designed shirt to allow players to get a good handfull????
The ref was dire but Moody to his credit said that it wasn't up to the ref but the players to play the game (something like that) All in all, England looked 100% better and much more dangerous, we'll be peaking just at the right time when everyone else have lost form, just like the last World Cup. The French won't travel well and will choke, pressure heaped on NZ at home.

Wilkinson came on and kicked a goal that a lot of people wouldn’t have had the skill to kick.

Now, i have been one of Wilkinson's major critics, as we all have, but he did nothing wrong in this game.

The above criticism of Wilkinson, is just criticising for criticising sake.

The point on the referee was summed up for me by Lewis Moody, saying something along the lines of 'you can blame the referee all you want but its us that didn’t take advantage of chances to win the game', and he is quite right.

England played a lot better and had the chances to beat France, who played very under par, but it wasn’t to be and we now have a platform to build on for the summer.

Lets look forwards not backwards.

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Formerly Super 14.

As a Saints fan I don't need to told about running rugby, i just find Jonny knocking a bit boring and typical of what we do in this country ie-build them up to knock them back down. All he wants to do is win for England. Bet you have a go at Beckham too?

While I think of it, we need a different inside centre as Flutey was also pretty meh (and he's not really English)...

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Saint Morrissey
i just find Jonny knocking a bit boring and typical of what we do in this country ie-build them up to knock them back down.

I, for one, have never built Wilko up - he's got a good boot and that's about it. His boot has also been lacking for the majority of the 6N anyway, and it was tonight as well bar one kick which arguably should have gone to touch.

Good job your bet is worthless because I don't care about football either.

OK Rink, we won't agree and I don't care that much for wendy ball either, just making a point. I enjoyed that Wilkinson moment in 2003 even if you moaned and argued that he should have ran the ball. He's had to battle back from dreadful injuries on a number of occasions and for that reason alone he has my respect. If he's getting picked it's on merit and probably a lack of decent alternatives.

One kick does not a fly-half make. I didn't think he'd get it, and fair play to him - it was a fantastic strike. But he has been rubbish for ages, and he did kick away a few crucial pieces of possession (when we were losing).

I'm not going to harp on about it, but I'm not doing a U-turn on the guy because he made one great kick. So did Flood, and nobody's calling him Grant Fox.

I'm with Super14 on the ref - had to make same point to the people I was watching the game with - the ref sucked, but so what - get on with it. The chances not taken / stuffed up would have cancelled out the poor decisions.

Reason we lost is though the back line was having moments where it functioned well it's not had time to gell properly as the shortsighted England management never picked the right players.

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New players.... hooray!

Someone must have thought he was quite good! Not got the stats but i would imagine that without hime we'd have lost loads of games. A team without a kicker is not a complete team. I should know, we have 3 dodgy kickers at the Saints and we've nearly come unstuck a few times!! We were relegated because we couldn't kick consistently!!!

Morrissey, you can't be that simplistic. We've seen today how different England are without JW. To say that we'd have lost games without his goalkicking is ignoring the 97% of a game where a ball isn't on a tee.

Quote:

Saint Morrissey
Someone must have thought he was quite good! Not got the stats but i would imagine that without hime we'd have lost loads of games

Wilko's stats flashed up during the Ireland vs Scotland game, he was way down as the 7th best kicker of the tournament or something...

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We were relegated because we couldn't kick consistently!!!

You were relegated because you had too many journeymen and didn't play good rugby. You found your soul back in ND1, started playing excellent attacking rugby and have built from there to rightfully take your place near the top.

I am not going into why we went down but I rememeber many matches when we lost by 1 or 2 points with kicks being missed...fact. I'm fed up with trying to defend Wilko. I know my rugby and I know that every player has his ups and downs. Suddenly Flood is great, who next? Until you can give me an alternative Wilkinson has to be in the picture. I don't care now, Saints for the treble..... discuss!!!!

Easter's kick wasn't bad!!

Not sure Flood is the answer to be honest.

Balls, I typed a long post and lost it - can't be bothered to retype it all but here's a quick summary;

Wilko out, Hodgson in.

Stick with Flood as starting 10, with an eye on bringing through other youngsters such as Cipriani and Geraghty in the near(ish) future when they find form.

I think the point from today is that by using Flood, Foden and Ashton it's clear that if we pick players who can run the ball from pivotal positions we actively score 7 point tries, rather than kicking for position and passively hoping for 3 point kicks.

Basically, if you don't attack then you rely on kick success. If we'd run the ball against Scotland we could have been 10 points ahead and not have to worry about dropping a goal under pressure in the last minute...

No future in Hodgson on bench. Either start him, or keep him out of the squad.

Wilkinson was playing to a gameplan, your 'pathetic' jibes should be directed at Johnson

Quote:

clutch
No future in Hodgson on bench. Either start him, or keep him out of the squad.

Uhh, why? All he's needed for is cover, why does he have to start or not at all?

Flood has proven he is the starting FH, there was no need to force him to centre today.

Sale bias in that.

What is the point in having a 30 year old as cover, especially one with a reputation of being shaky under pressure.

Flood is fine, but I don't see him as the future. The other mavericks are more talented, and I would have them on the bench.

Wilkinson has never been re-programmed from the type of game England adopted up until 2003 or so.

He did everything you would have expected him to do except, apart from the goal, he did them worse than usual. The kick for a lineout was not the worst thing he did. For example at one stage the ball had been moved out till it got to him whereupon he kicked, quite a good kick, for touch. But at that moment the further movement of the ball by hand was required, keep the thing in your own team's possession.

It reminded me of the time last autumn when England kicked a penalty for touch, won the lineout and scooted the ball to Wilkinson who took an unsuccessful drop goal. You were behind on the scoreboard then too.

He just doesn't cut it. I've been of that opinion for over 10 years. During the world cup victory and around that time he had a brain. His name was Mike Catt.

Wilkinson hit a very good penalty, granted. Some people seem to think reading this however that Toby Flood isn't capable of doing just that. In truth, he did start kicking too much away and didn't play head up as needed.

It's well worth a note that England didn't look nearly as dangerous after his addition as they did before. Nothing to do with the rain.

The sad thing is, Flutey (who was dire) needed to be taken off and Wilkinson was the only back left on the bench. Time for Anthony Allen to earn his recall as the England 12.

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Sir Jonny is picked for two main reasons - kicks well and is defensively strong. Everyone knows he is not great with ball in hand but if England are playing an ultra conservative i.e very dull, kicking game then that plays to Wilkinson's strengths. I suppose there is a certain irony that England play glorified 10 man Rugby and Sir Jonny has a bit of a wobble with the boot (by his high standards) but considering what he has done, both directly and indirectly, for English Rugby and for the numerous serious injuries he has battled back from he is deserving of everyones respect. Ultimately it is not his fault he is in the England squad, he is there because the alternatives are not consistent and/or never will be good enough for international Rugby and so long as he is treated fairly i.e dropped when not kicking well or benched when a running game is being played then there can be no complaints.

cherrycherry: Agree with you. I also think many on here have a club bias toward Wilkinson wearing the no10 shirt i.e. their no10 is far better etc.,

and before anyone starts I also think it is time to move on from Wilkinson but I do think to kick a guy when perhaps down and also doing what is being asked is despicable and shows the type of character that floats around on these boards

fair enough give your opinion but some just comments on here are just not fair to JW.

I would like to see another player come back from injury as he has done and save England's bacon with the boot.

Too easy to stick in the boot here........and those who do if you knew how this guy will be torturing himself mentally now you might just lay off.

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Kath.

I would like to see another player come back from injury as he has done and save England's bacon with the boot.

Cipriani has gone through worse and I'll stick my neck on the line and wager that he will come back to save England's bacon with attractive running rugby instead (much harder achievement).

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and those who do if you knew how this guy will be torturing himself mentally now you might just lay off.

Well if he wants to be a freak and wallow in self-pity, let him. A great player will analyse his game and address his shortcomings so as not to make the same mistakes in the future.

The bind in the scrum is not being penalised enough.to bind on the arm allows the scrum to be pulled down hence the number of injuries.Refs should be told to penalise this straight away or send to player off for 10 minutes.Also they seem to allow pulling the scrum around.If the scrum does'nt go straight its illegal and should be stopped.it might save a few necks

Rinkadink: So Cips list is better than this one is it?


Wilkinson's Injury List

2002: May - Suffers ankle ligament damage in Newcastle's defeat by Gloucester,
ruling him out for the rest of the season.

2003: December 13 - Newcastle confirm Wilkinson has fractured a facet in his
shoulder - known as a 'stinger'. Falcons predict an absence of two to three
weeks.



December 28 - Suffers a recurrence of his shoulder injury and has to come off during Newcastle's win over Northampton.


2004: February - Ruled out of Six Nations after shoulder operation.

October - Ruled out for up to six weeks with a haematoma in the upper right arm and has to stand down as England captain for autumn Tests.

2005: January - Suffers knee ligament damage in Newcastle's Heineken Cup defeat in Perpignan.

March - Suffers medial ligament damage on Newcastle comeback against Harlequins.

July - Suffers shoulder injury in British and Irish Lions' second Test defeat
in New Zealand and misses third match.

September - Ruled out of early season action after undergoing an appendix
operation.



November - Has a major operation for related groin problems.

2006: January - Suffers a torn adductor muscle.

September - Forced off with a knee ligament injury during Newcastle's home game
against Worcester, effectively ending his hopes of playing in the autumn Tests.




November - Makes comeback for Newcastle against Bristol but suffers kidney damage and requires one month's rest.

2007: September - Suffers fresh injury blow as a twisted ankle in training
rules him out of England World Cup opener against USA.

2008: May - Undergoes shoulder surgery which keeps him out of England's summer
tour of New Zealand.

September 30 - Suffers suspected knee ligament damage during Newcastle's Guinness Premiership defeat at Gloucester.

Quote:

Well if he wants to be a freak and wallow in self-pity, let him. A great player will analyse his game and address his shortcomings so as not to make the same mistakes in the future.

lack of knowledge by you again, he is always trying to improve and does try - that is why Professionals have the greatest respect for him - unlike some fans who with the greatest respect talk without knowing

I simply cannot fathom why people are slating Wilkinson. Disgraceful.

As far as I'm concerned he got us to two World Cup Finals and no one has been able to fill his shoes when they have been given the opportunity: Flood, Goode or Hodgson. None of these would have been able to slot that penalty yesterday. The guy is, and always will be, a legend. End of.

Quote:

Wilkinson's Injury List
Blablabla, moderately damaged shoulder cauing most of the problems.

Needs to change tackle technique.

Cips' foot was facing the wrong way and it was feared he'd never play again - he has also had a real mauling in the press and by fans, something Mr. Wilkinson has never experienced. He was also treated very badly by the England management (he's not alone in this either), why are so many allowances made for Jonny?

Quote:

lack of knowledge by you again, he is always trying to improve and does try

Then why does he keep making the same mistakes? Why has his kicking gone to pot? Check the statistics for the 6N if you think he's performing well. LOL

Quote:

that is why Professionals have the greatest respect for him - unlike some fans who with the greatest respect talk without knowing

What did Stransky have to say about him? "Jonny Wilkinson has lost his aura as the man who won the Cup for and his game is becoming strewn with errors.

'The end comes to all great players, I don't think Jonny's the player he was. The zip has gone. He looks a little cumbersome and is making too many mistakes. He has become predictable and has lost his polish."

Now if one of us had said that we'd be accused of "slating" or "Sir Jonny Bashing" - when a player does it it's fine! There is nothing wrong with stating the truth, which is exactly what you deluded sycophants do not wish to hear. Polls are all in favour of dropping him, it's not 2003 any more... get with the times.

Rinkadink: I am sure Wasps fans are really proud of you. As for the rest of us what was it........?

deluded sycophants

my,my had a good breakfast have we

Go Away, and play now eh

Staggsy, living in the past has been England Rugby's problem for 7 years now, I agree Jonny of 2002/3 was outstanding, it p*sses me off hugely to hear people today claim that he never could play properly (his fellow professional players voted him the best in the world in 2003, I don't believe they are swayed by the English press). Had he not had his succession of injuries, then his game may have adapted and evolved as the rest of the game has (though successive Enlgnad managements may have hampered that), unforutnaley JW has largely sat out for 7 years, and the game has moved on without him. Jonny's current Enlgand form is pants, end of, legend or not. He may be playing to a flawed gameplan, but that doesn't explain how Flood, presumably playing to the same gameplan, can get the back line moving but Jonny can't. Jonny's kikcing from hand has been dreadful for a number of years. This year, even his goal kicking has failed to meet his own exacting standards and we are beginning to see holes in his defence. I have long stated that JW needed extended gametime at club level to (re)discover form and earn his selection on true merit, he has never been afforded that luxury and has been searching for form under the microscope, which makes it even tougher, but does not exempt him from criticism. Flood is clearly the form English 10 at the moment (assuming we are ignoring Charlie Hodgson, and for the record, his failures to capitalise on the international opportunities handed to him lead me to believe it is right to ignore him in this discussion), it took until this weekend for Englnad selectors to realise that, we are surely right to question why.

Finally, what evidence do you have that Flood would not have kicked that penalty (assuming the decision would have been that same without JW on the pitch).

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We are the angry mob. We read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate, but we're also easily swayed.

who are the top teams in the world at present and are we able to pick players that are comparable to them.The southern Hemp teams seem to pick powerful atheletes that are also able to play rugby.We managed to cope with them with our lions team and when we added a few more powerful players towards the end of the tour we caused them real problems.International players have moved on and you can notice the difference in our teams when players from abroad are added to the squad.

In my opinion and purely my opinion, Sir Johnny has gone from leading edge to journeyman, he does not have the class he had in 2002 (in my opinion he was already fading in 2003 due to injuries) and, again in my opinion, the England 10 shirt is not the place for him to regain form, the 10 shirt should be occpuied by teh best we have to offer, keep him in the squad by all means and let him prove his worth there before giving him a starting berth

Why keep him in the squad though. If he isn't the best 10, then where do you rank him?

I genuinely wouldn't have him in the squad, nor the Saxons. Combination of not been good enough, and too old to develop. His whole selection, is a Johnson bias towards people he's played with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/03/2010 11:09 by clutch.

as a wasps fan, I dont think that Cips is fit to lace JW boots in terms of:

1. His proven track recored
2. His team spirit
3. His desire to dog it out
4. His behaviour
5. His public life
6. His kicking

I thought Cips was going to be the best player england has produced, I know think he is a naughty boy and needs to grow up!

He will be another Gavin Henson, only with less caps

As a wasps fan, I am anything but proud of tidlywink or whatever his name is!

Wilkinson is far from pathetic,he has been great and unfortuneately is now paying for all the injuries he has had through being too brave when others should have been protecting him.Think of the times when he has tackled much bigger players and saved his team even when he himself was carrying an injury.If he gets picked just support him