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Moosemagic
Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 13:07
However, with many City fans refusing to go to Birmingham St Andrews to watch Cov City home games, i am sure that Cov Rugby should take on this opportunity and offer them something to do on a Saturday afternoon.



Phil Reynolds

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
AdminBTCov (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 13:16
Agreed. But the implications are far wider-reaching for that for sport in Coventry.

Disgraceful situation when the city's football club can't play in its own city and at a ground that was built for it (and yes I'm aware of all the shenanigans involving the owners, the EFL, and the other clowns at the Ricoh).

Disgusted.

 
Mick J Shaw
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Mick J Shaw (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 20:25
I feel so sorry for the genuine sky blues supporters who follow their team week in week out only to be sold down the river by sisu,Coventry city council and wasps

 
Moosemagic
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 21:02
Quote:
Mick J Shaw
I feel so sorry for the genuine sky blues supporters who follow their team week in week out only to be sold down the river by sisu,Coventry city council and wasps
Why do people still insist that the council and wasps are to blame. There is only one antagonist here and that is Sisu.
Let's be clear:
They had a chance to buy the stadium, they didn't
They stopped paying the rent to distress ACL
They moved the club to Northampton
Wasps offer to lease the Ricoh
Council agree a long term agreement but keep the freehold
Wasps offere Sisu a deal to come back they agree and they sign a deal
Sisu take wasps to court
Sisu lose again
Wasps say ok you can play here if you drop legal action
Talks begin
Sisu take legal action
Wasps say drop your legal action and you can play here
Sisu say no we are going to brum

So please tell me again, wtf have wasps and the council done wrong?



Phil Reynolds



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2019 21:07 by Moosemagic.

 
Cov_InPeace
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Cov_InPeace (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 21:48
Quote:
Moosemagic
Quote:
Mick J Shaw
I feel so sorry for the genuine sky blues supporters who follow their team week in week out only to be sold down the river by sisu,Coventry city council and wasps
Why do people still insist that the council and wasps are to blame. There is only one antagonist here and that is Sisu.
Let's be clear:
They had a chance to buy the stadium, they didn't
They stopped paying the rent to distress ACL
They moved the club to Northampton
Wasps offer to lease the Ricoh
Council agree a long term agreement but keep the freehold
Wasps offere Sisu a deal to come back they agree and they sign a deal
Sisu take wasps to court
Sisu lose again
Wasps say ok you can play here if you drop legal action
Talks begin
Sisu take legal action
Wasps say drop your legal action and you can play here
Sisu say no we are going to brum

So please tell me again, wtf have wasps and the council done wrong?

Where to start, Phil, where to start. I've got to say that I think you're rather oversimplifying things here.

I'm just going to make this point, disregarding all of the shenanigans around ACL way, way back in the past, the fact is that the Council said they wanted to rebuild trust with the club when Coventry City returned from Northampton, and then discuss ownership of the Ricoh. At that very same point in time, they were doing a secret deal with Wasps to sell the place.

Even then the Council said that they wouldn't sign-off on a deal with Wasps that could threaten the future of the CCFC (or Cov Rugby for that matter), whilst putting in place precisely no provision or covenant to support that promise to either local team. (Remember how Wasps were just going to play 'home' games on Sundays?).

Moving to the current situation, as well as demanding that CCFC/SISU stop all legal action that involves them (a request which SISU say that they have now complied with) according to all of the reports that I've read Wasps have also demanded that CCFC indemnify them against future damages should the EU find that the Council have done something wrong.

Why on earth would CCFC want to do that? In the unlikely event that the EU (via the complaint mechanism that SISU triggered) did find that the Council have behaved counter to EU law, and that there was some impact on Wasps, why should CCFC be obliged to pay the bill for that wrongdoing? If Wasps wanted an indemnity against the Council's actions when completing the sale, then they should have asked the Council at that point. It isn't as though Wasps weren't aware of the history between SISU and the Council when they upped sticks 80+ miles to move here (and let's not even start on the morality of that). But presumably the deal was just too good to turn down.

As for SISU choosing to go to Brum, that's not quite the case either is it? Wasps have said that they're not willing to talk further without the indemnities etc., if CCFC want to survive they've got no choice but to go somewhere else.

And before you think I'm defending SISU, I'm not. They're bloody awful owners and on the day that they finally go I'll celebrate long and loud. But they're far from the only party responsible here, imho.

And I don't think I'm ever going to post on this matter on this board again - I'm not here to stop anyone talking about it, but in truth it irks me far too much to get drawn into it. I'd rather just talk about Cov RFC.

 
Moosemagic
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 22:05
Over simplifying? Or just stating facts Russ,?
You seem to be forgetting that every Court in the Land has thrown out every Sisu case.
Instead of accepting that and moving on Sisu still continues it relentless quest for compensation and in doing so is using Ccfc as its toy to play on peoples emotions.
Any conditions that Wasps are putting on the deal are purely as a result of Sisu being so untrustworthy, the fact that Wasps even sat down with them amazes me, but hey ho maybe Wasps have the city of Coventry at heart, this however will never be said about Sisu!
Also never forget the mantra of Tim Fisher "we will batter them in the Courts"....
So for all the people who blame Wasps and the Council please do your research and then tell me why?



Phil Reynolds



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2019 22:14 by Moosemagic.

 
HoboAl
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
HoboAl (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 22:14
Quote:
Moosemagic
Quote:
Mick J Shaw
I feel so sorry for the genuine sky blues supporters who follow their team week in week out only to be sold down the river by sisu,Coventry city council and wasps
Why do people still insist that the council and wasps are to blame. There is only one antagonist here and that is Sisu.
Let's be clear:
They had a chance to buy the stadium, they didn't
They stopped paying the rent to distress ACL
They moved the club to Northampton
Wasps offer to lease the Ricoh
Council agree a long term agreement but keep the freehold
Wasps offere Sisu a deal to come back they agree and they sign a deal
Sisu take wasps to court
Sisu lose again
Wasps say ok you can play here if you drop legal action
Talks begin
Sisu take legal action
Wasps say drop your legal action and you can play here
Sisu say no we are going to brum

So please tell me again, wtf have wasps and the council done wrong?

One leg of a fat Ox! Previous owners, SISU, CCC have all sold the football club and fans down the river. Wasps joined the party to muddy the waters and I have no time for them or tbeir fans disparaging remarks and lack of understanding of the situation.

 
Moosemagic
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 22:31
Al
I think you will find that I am not or never have been a Wasps fan, however I was a season ticket holder at cov city for many years and now a season ticket holder at cov rugby for the past 6 or 7 years, so I do think that entitles me to an opinion.
Sisu are sharks nothing more nothing less, stripping the carcass and trying to make a profit.
But obviously Sisu are blame free and the innocent party in all this, as all unsundry think that others are to blame.



Phil Reynolds

 
steve from cov
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
steve from cov (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 23:30
The fact that the leaders of both the Local Labour and Conservative groups are consistently on the same page with their criticsm of sisu tells me something.

It is remarkable.

 
Moosemagic
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 23:38
[quote steve from cov]The fact that the leaders of both the Local Labour and Conservative groups are consistently on the same page with their criticsm of sisu tells me something.

It is remarkable.[/quote

It does indeed Steve and that is a massive point which people seem to miss.



Phil Reynolds

 
covkid53
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
covkid53 (IP Logged)
07 June, 2019 23:57
SiSu are 100 % to blame, no one else. They were gifted all the fans shares (including mine) and Geoffrey Robinson's 8m stake as a prerequisite to buy, a 12m sweetener. The hope was they would buy their Ricoh share from Higgs, they didn't. The rest we know.

Glad they're gone, the council will help the innocent as they helped us at Cov with the BPA, but not while SiSu are owners. Someone the council never invited in.

 
Diesel74
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Diesel74 (IP Logged)
08 June, 2019 12:30
A slightly different view here:

[markdieselforster.wordpress.com]

THere is no doubt in my mind that SISU, and previous Sky Blues managements, are to blame for this silly position.

But the city council has done little to cover itself in glory.

There has been no transparency in its dealings with, let's face it, taxpayers' money, mine included.

I would never have believed, growing up in Coventry, that Highfield Road or Coundon Road, would go. Like the big car factories, I guess. And my beloved Coventry Evening Telegraph.

Lest we forget, Coventry Rugby Club could have become a famous casualty of the greed of the professional age. There are more issues surrounding top class sport, mainly due to greed, spending money that isn't there and whoring out the game to the big spenders.

Mark

 
Cov_InPeace
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Cov_InPeace (IP Logged)
08 June, 2019 23:15
Quote:
Moosemagic
Over simplifying? Or just stating facts Russ,?
You seem to be forgetting that every Court in the Land has thrown out every Sisu case.
Instead of accepting that and moving on Sisu still continues it relentless quest for compensation and in doing so is using Ccfc as its toy to play on peoples emotions.
Any conditions that Wasps are putting on the deal are purely as a result of Sisu being so untrustworthy, the fact that Wasps even sat down with them amazes me, but hey ho maybe Wasps have the city of Coventry at heart, this however will never be said about Sisu!
Also never forget the mantra of Tim Fisher "we will batter them in the Courts"....
So for all the people who blame Wasps and the Council please do your research and then tell me why?

Phil, politely, Coventry City has been a very big a part of my life for a very long time. I'll give you a little research, if that's what you want...

Let's go back to just after the club came back from Northampton. This is the acting leader of the City Council talking about building trust before discussing ownership.

In the same article, he says:

If the football club is successful, the Ricoh is successful and the city is successful. The club will be paying rent, providing jobs and will make the Ricoh a more powerful sporting location.

That was August 2014. A few weeks later they'd agreed a sale with Wasps, who they'd been dealing with in secret.

A key criteria of the sale? "Let me be clear, any deal around the future of the Ricoh Arena must not happen if it threatens the future of the Sky Blues or Coventry Rugby Club... No one here has ever been prepared to sell the Ricoh Arena or the leasehold unless we can be completely satisfied our original aims can be met and include a home for the football club" Anne Lucas: Council Leader: Oct 2014

Actual protection given to CCFC (or CRFC) when finalising the deal? None.

Were the football club ever given a chance to purchase on the same terms, with a 250-year lease extension shortly following the original deal? No, obviously not - you can read CCFC's CEO view on it if you like.

In fact the only time that the Council have since got involved with CCFC (other than court cases) was to try to cut off any chance of a groundshare at the Butts, to 'protect their interests'. Now whether a groundhsare would ever have been in Cov RFC's interests is another debate, but regardless why exactly was it in the Council's interests to kill this off (in attempted secrecy)?

As for Wasps having the City of Coventry's best interests at heart, are you really sure about that? The job creating academy that they were apparently going to build in the city has long since fallen by the wayside. (Lucky for Coventry City, incidentally, as the current users of that facility). If you think that Wasps' owners are any less cynical than the people running Coventry City, then look at the evidence.

They were happy to uproot the entire club from playing just outside their traditional London base, to Coventry (a City with it's own rugby club) regardless of the opinions of a large part of their loyal supporters. They falsified their own accounts, causing their auditors to quit and the FCA to investigate. And now, even though everyone says that Coventry City Council have done nothing wrong, they want the CCFC to indemnify them against any and all costs just in case the EU say different. And you're pitching them as the innocents here?

Feel free to come back with your own research, Phil, and tell me what bits of this are wrong.

I suspect the only thing we'll agree on is that SISU are hideous people to have at the helm of CCFC; unlike you though, for me that doesn't justify the failings of the other parties involved in this mess.

Anyway, I've wasted enough of my night (and life) arguing about this. Look beyond the 'SISU are evil and that makes everything everyone else did acceptable' trope though, that's all I'd ask.

Russ.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
AdminBTCov (IP Logged)
08 June, 2019 23:52
Above +1

 
thomas senior
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
tom snr (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 10:16
well said Russ this coincides with what i was told by someone in the council at the time.Wasps had also been in talks with Bham City over their ground as a way to force Cov City council to quickly agree the sweetheart deal.

 
Moosemagic
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Moosemagic (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 13:54
Sisu stopped paying their rent, is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault?
Sisu took CCFC to Northampton is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
Sisu tried to distress AH trust is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
I am not saying that Wasps or the Council are whiter than white but the instigators for this whole sorry saga are Sisu, they have broken all trust within the city!
What happened to the new stadium that Fisher was gloating about all those years back? Never had any intention of building one and never will.
If they are unsuccessful in the European courts they will sell up or as I fear, liquidate the club.



Phil Reynolds

 
timdouglas1
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
timdouglas1 (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 14:12
Phil and Russ, you are both so correct in everything you say. The unfortunate ones here are the loyal supporters getting shafted again and again by nothing short of corruption in all departments

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
OldNick (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 14:52
Where to start?

Im sorry, but Id start with the old management of CCFC.

They are the ones who decided to leave Highfield Road (probably a necessary decision) but failed to ensure they had enough money to complete their new ground.

They are the ones who appeared to be imitating Leicester City, in bankrupting a builder when they moved from Filbert Street to the Walker stadium, but had to back down very quickly when the football authorities changed the rules and said rheyd Throw the book at any who played that stunt again.

Had they left enough money in the kitty to complete the ground, none of this would have happened, none of us would have heard of the vile Sisu, and the Sky Blues would have their own ground.

There seemed to be a bit of a trend back then for boosting pensions at the cost of the clubs that were moving.

 
CovBlueLou
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
CovBlueLou (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 17:14
Wasps fans on their forum trying to claim Covs on field success has been in part thanks to their arrival! Absolutely deluded!

 
HoboAl
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
HoboAl (IP Logged)
09 June, 2019 19:13
Quote:
Moosemagic
Sisu stopped paying their rent, is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault?
Sisu took CCFC to Northampton is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
Sisu tried to distress AH trust is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
I am not saying that Wasps or the Council are whiter than white but the instigators for this whole sorry saga are Sisu, they have broken all trust within the city!
What happened to the new stadium that Fisher was gloating about all those years back? Never had any intention of building one and never will.
If they are unsuccessful in the European courts they will sell up or as I fear, liquidate the club.

SISU taking Coventry to Northampton was wrong.
Another hedge fund bringing Wasps to Coventry seems fine..
How some people can castigate one while embracing the other is beyond me and that is just the top surface before I dig down.

Coventry City Council endorsed SISU then fell out with them. They have done little to support Coventry City FC (forget the owners).

They have also shown preferencial treatment to a London Rugby team over its traditional team Coventry Rugby.

Every sports fan should be concerned about owners like SISU. Not snide and derogarotry to fellow sports fans like Wasps fans are. Wasps are like CCFC and on a last throw of a dice; it remains to be seen whether they throw a 1 or a 6.

 
covkid53
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
covkid53 (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 13:46
Quote:
AdminBTCov
Agreed. But the implications are far wider-reaching for that for sport in Coventry.
Disgraceful situation when the city's football club can't play in its own city and at a ground that was built for it (and yes I'm aware of all the shenanigans involving the owners, the EFL, and the other clowns at the Ricoh).

Disgusted.

It was built in spite of them not for them. Remember they left CC high and dry, pulling out leaving a 21m black hole. CC had to find a partner (Higgs) to put in 6.5m and raise a 15m mortgage on the unfinished stadium complex to complete it. ACL were set up as a 50/50 partnership to run the stadium. The rent CCFC paid only covered the mortgage and capital repayments, so their lie about the high rent is plain to see. Their pulling out caused the 21m hole in the 113m regeneration project.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
AdminBTCov (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 15:13
There's an echo chamber over at Wasps' unoffy. But of course you already know that as a Wasps fan.

 
covkid53
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
covkid53 (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 15:31
Actually, I am not. I was a season ticket holder at Highfield road for 20 odd years. But I now go to Cov Rugby games at the BPA. I have never seen a Wasps game at the Ricoh and never will. However I am also a NOPM supporter.

I am John Stretton on other media platforms.

 
Cov_InPeace
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
Cov_InPeace (IP Logged)
13 June, 2019 22:07
Quote:
Moosemagic
Sisu stopped paying their rent, is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault?
Sisu took CCFC to Northampton is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
Sisu tried to distress AH trust is that Wasps fault or the Councils fault
I am not saying that Wasps or the Council are whiter than white but the instigators for this whole sorry saga are Sisu, they have broken all trust within the city!
What happened to the new stadium that Fisher was gloating about all those years back? Never had any intention of building one and never will.
If they are unsuccessful in the European courts they will sell up or as I fear, liquidate the club.

Pretty much everything you're talking about here happened prior to the return from Northampton. Even then, it's not entirely clear that the Council were acting entirely in good faith when negotiating the sale of ACL - there's the High Court summary here which shows the Council making some interesting moves of its own, trying to deal with Yorkshire Bank behind closed doors, using the rent strike as a lever to get the loan at a discount. Then there's all the tomfoolery around around whether ACL was a profitable business (in short, yes, when the Council wanted to bail it out to the tune of 14.4m, no, when it wanted to sell in secret to Wasps).

But for me, the key point in time was after the return from Northampton. That was the chance to rebuild trust, as the council promised. What a pity that promise wasn't given a chance to bear fruit instead of selling in secret to a rugby team from London. Who really broke trust at that point in time?

Anyway my point still is that SISU have mismanaged the club for a very long time, but selling the Ricoh to Wasps without any genuine care as to the future of CCFC is what put the final nail in the coffin.

One day, SISU will be gone, but assuming Wasps survive the Ricoh will be theirs for another couple of centuries.

Last point - there is no European Court action taking place; in fact currently there's no more court action anywhere planned. There's just an investigation by the EU into whether Coventry City Council acted according to EU law.

The sticking point between Wasps and CCFC now seems to be that Wasps want an unlimited indemnity from CCFC if the EU find the Council have acted irregularly and that impacts them. Two questions spring to mind here:

1) Why would CCFC want to expose themselves to an unlimited risk?

2) If everyone is so completely confident that the council have done no wrong, why is an indemnity even required?

(Again, politely, I think I'm wasting my time here. A lot of people can't see much further than SISU are horrible and therefore everything the Council and Wasps do is entirely acceptable. It's not a point of view that I can subscribe to.)

Russ.

 
covmick1/Michael Carter
Re: Sisu? What a shambles.
13 June, 2019 22:11
Well blame aplenty, I do feel sorry for the fans. Over the last few years, fans have suffered badly. Now once again leaving the city of the clubs name. Hope the club survives and moves forward through the troubled times.



covmick/Michael Carter

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