rugbyunion
Latest News:

..... Chiefs win AW Cup....next up it's Glaws at Sandy Park.. .... Go Well Go Hard Go Chiefs ...... the fun continues .......


Welcome to The Tribe, web site for Exeter Chiefs Fans, PLEASE ensure you credit your sources when posting information you've read elsewhere, and preferably post a link to the original material (if found electronically), Thanks....Opinions expressed on these messageboards are those of individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors. This site is run independently of all external organisations, and readers and posters are referred to the Exeter Chiefs Official website for their views. Any hyperlink will be removed at the request of the original site owner

MESSAGES->author
Standards of Refereeing
Lowerwatha (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 11:55
Was not at the game yesterday but listened to it on Radio Devon and both Nigel and John were incredulous at the decision not to review the first Newcastle Try.
The following is an extract from the Telegraph report of the game:

This match ultimately turned on two Falcons tries in three minutes midway through the first half. The first remains controversial given that it contained two offences, the first when lock Sean Robinson came from offside at a ruck to strip Exeter scrum-half Nick White. Falcons scrum-half Mike Young then broke down the blindside and prop Rob Vickers fed Sinoti Sinoti with a clearly forward pass.
After receiving the ball in his own half, the wing did exceptionally well to squeeze over in the corner, with Toby Flood sensibly picking up the ball and smacking an unsuccessful but quick drop-kick before the score could be reviewed.

“It’s not why we lost, but there are obvious markers that there’s something wrong with a try when a team takes a quick conversion,” said Baxter.

I watch a lot of televised rugby and in some games you can hear the ref, assistant refs and the TMO talking, asking or giving advice on possible infringements but clearly this did not happen in this case. Referees like Wayne Barnes, J P Doyle and Nigel Owens do this constantly but some not so much. I would like to see more consistency by the officials! There are 4 officials in every game, use them!

Rob’s comment about the quick conversion is also pertinent, this is becoming more prevalent of late, I think Steeno did the same in the Quins game recently. I have no objection to the kicker taking a quick drop conversion near the end of a game to speed up the restart and give them a chance of a bonus point or a win but to take a quick kick to stop the ref reviewing a dubious try is wrong IMHO.

 
NorfolkFalcon
Re: Standards of Refereeing
NorfolkFalcon (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 13:03
Ultimately it was a forward pass for the first try but with all due respect I thought you got away with a lot more than we did yesterday. The referee's decisions against us in the second half were absolutely shocking.

 
Exeforever
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Exeforever (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 13:56
Quote:
Lowerwatha
Was not at the game yesterday but listened to it on Radio Devon and both Nigel and John were incredulous at the decision not to review the first Newcastle Try.
The following is an extract from the Telegraph report of the game:

This match ultimately turned on two Falcons tries in three minutes midway through the first half. The first remains controversial given that it contained two offences, the first when lock Sean Robinson came from offside at a ruck to strip Exeter scrum-half Nick White. Falcons scrum-half Mike Young then broke down the blindside and prop Rob Vickers fed Sinoti Sinoti with a clearly forward pass.
After receiving the ball in his own half, the wing did exceptionally well to squeeze over in the corner, with Toby Flood sensibly picking up the ball and smacking an unsuccessful but quick drop-kick before the score could be reviewed.

“It’s not why we lost, but there are obvious markers that there’s something wrong with a try when a team takes a quick conversion,” said Baxter.

I watch a lot of televised rugby and in some games you can hear the ref, assistant refs and the TMO talking, asking or giving advice on possible infringements but clearly this did not happen in this case. Referees like Wayne Barnes, J P Doyle and Nigel Owens do this constantly but some not so much. I would like to see more consistency by the officials! There are 4 officials in every game, use them!

Rob’s comment about the quick conversion is also pertinent, this is becoming more prevalent of late, I think Steeno did the same in the Quins game recently. I have no objection to the kicker taking a quick drop conversion near the end of a game to speed up the restart and give them a chance of a bonus point or a win but to take a quick kick to stop the ref reviewing a dubious try is wrong IMHO.

The quick conversion is as much of a nonsense as the scrum put-in after a choke tackle and needs addressing by the lawmakers.

I still favour coaches having one challenge per half (a bit like in the NFL). If you win it you keep it if you lose it the opposition keeps whatever advantage it is that you have challenged; you're only going to use it for scores from foul play or forward passes or possibly a red card foul by an opposition player that has gone unnoticed by the officials.

It might also help the RFU with the performance management of certain referees as the stats of whose decisions were the most challenged would be interesting...

 
ukms
Re: Standards of Refereeing
ukms (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 14:37
Quote:
Exeforever
Quote:
Lowerwatha
Was not at the game yesterday but listened to it on Radio Devon and both Nigel and John were incredulous at the decision not to review the first Newcastle Try.
The following is an extract from the Telegraph report of the game:

This match ultimately turned on two Falcons tries in three minutes midway through the first half. The first remains controversial given that it contained two offences, the first when lock Sean Robinson came from offside at a ruck to strip Exeter scrum-half Nick White. Falcons scrum-half Mike Young then broke down the blindside and prop Rob Vickers fed Sinoti Sinoti with a clearly forward pass.
After receiving the ball in his own half, the wing did exceptionally well to squeeze over in the corner, with Toby Flood sensibly picking up the ball and smacking an unsuccessful but quick drop-kick before the score could be reviewed.

“It’s not why we lost, but there are obvious markers that there’s something wrong with a try when a team takes a quick conversion,” said Baxter.

I watch a lot of televised rugby and in some games you can hear the ref, assistant refs and the TMO talking, asking or giving advice on possible infringements but clearly this did not happen in this case. Referees like Wayne Barnes, J P Doyle and Nigel Owens do this constantly but some not so much. I would like to see more consistency by the officials! There are 4 officials in every game, use them!

Rob’s comment about the quick conversion is also pertinent, this is becoming more prevalent of late, I think Steeno did the same in the Quins game recently. I have no objection to the kicker taking a quick drop conversion near the end of a game to speed up the restart and give them a chance of a bonus point or a win but to take a quick kick to stop the ref reviewing a dubious try is wrong IMHO.

The quick conversion is as much of a nonsense as the scrum put-in after a choke tackle and needs addressing by the lawmakers.

I still favour coaches having one challenge per half (a bit like in the NFL). If you win it you keep it if you lose it the opposition keeps whatever advantage it is that you have challenged; you're only going to use it for scores from foul play or forward passes or possibly a red card foul by an opposition player that has gone unnoticed by the officials.

It might also help the RFU with the performance management of certain referees as the stats of whose decisions were the most challenged would be interesting...

And who would be the final decision maker of the review ? ... are you suggesting a 5th independent official ?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Lowerwatha (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 15:22
The final decision should always down to the man in the middle, but consistency from Premiership referees as a first and eventually across Europe!

 
Peter Ord
Re: Standards of Refereeing
OAP (Over a pint) (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 16:04
It seems many are not satisfied with TMO's and the like and some would like even more stoppages through the use of a challenge. Personally I'd return to the days when the ref made a decision and the players got on with it. Recently Luke the lad dropped a clamber when his touch judge gave Robson in touch. As the line out was taking place a player suggested he look at the big screen. Luke simply said he trusted his team just like the players did so let's just get on with it and they did. It's not perfect but it does keep the game moving.

 
Trebor1892
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Trebor1892 (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 16:26
Quote:
OAP (Over a pint)
It seems many are not satisfied with TMO's and the like and some would like even more stoppages through the use of a challenge. Personally I'd return to the days when the ref made a decision and the players got on with it. Recently Luke the lad dropped a clamber when his touch judge gave Robson in touch. As the line out was taking place a player suggested he look at the big screen. Luke simply said he trusted his team just like the players did so let's just get on with it and they did. It's not perfect but it does keep the game moving.

Couldn’t have put it better myself. Nail on head - close the thread!

 
Chief RedWine
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Chief Redwine (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 19:17
Never seen a referee miss a tackle.

 
Zyder head
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Zyder head (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 20:51
With the speed of the game now we have to accept that on field referees will miss more than they used to which is where the TMO comes in.
My main and probably only real irk with the TMO is who makes the final decision. We have seen several times that the TMO even with the benefit of replays gets things badly wrong,as in the Thrush try against us at Gloucester. My wish is that we just have the on field referee view the replay on the big screen,no dialogue of opinions between TMO and on field Sir,just facts as in "no further camera angles available Wayne" etc and then then on field Sir makes the final call. I really hate this "do you agree with me?" conversation! If you are the referee you are capable of making a decision on your own on what you see not asking someone else's opinion.
I am sure that the quick conversion option will disappear at the end of the season.

 
ukms
Re: Standards of Refereeing
ukms (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 02:37
Quote:
Zyder head
With the speed of the game now we have to accept that on field referees will miss more than they used to which is where the TMO comes in.
My main and probably only real irk with the TMO is who makes the final decision. We have seen several times that the TMO even with the benefit of replays gets things badly wrong,as in the Thrush try against us at Gloucester. My wish is that we just have the on field referee view the replay on the big screen,no dialogue of opinions between TMO and on field Sir,just facts as in "no further camera angles available Wayne" etc and then then on field Sir makes the final call. I really hate this "do you agree with me?" conversation! If you are the referee you are capable of making a decision on your own on what you see not asking someone else's opinion.
I am sure that the quick conversion option will disappear at the end of the season.

That’s all well and good if every club has the same standard of screen and the ref can see it properly but they differ and many decisions rest on fine margins that the ref can’t always see.

It does amuse me how referee bashing on a forum only happens when a team loses and a decision has gone against them. You haven’t been discussing many ref decisions that go in your favour when you win (I know there have been some). Refs are human, do their best in the main and will never be robotically consistent and so will make mistakes, they all even them self out over a season.

There has been a lot of talk in the press lately about how players are losing respect for refs with back chat etc .... supporters are doing much the same with frequent ref bashing generally when their team loses (whether they blame the ref for the loss or not).

 
Zyder head
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Zyder head (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 06:56
Quote:
ukms
Quote:
Zyder head
With the speed of the game now we have to accept that on field referees will miss more than they used to which is where the TMO comes in.
My main and probably only real irk with the TMO is who makes the final decision. We have seen several times that the TMO even with the benefit of replays gets things badly wrong,as in the Thrush try against us at Gloucester. My wish is that we just have the on field referee view the replay on the big screen,no dialogue of opinions between TMO and on field Sir,just facts as in "no further camera angles available Wayne" etc and then then on field Sir makes the final call. I really hate this "do you agree with me?" conversation! If you are the referee you are capabl
e of making a decision on your own on what you see not asking someone else's opinion.
I am sure that the quick conversion option will disappear at the end of the season.

That’s all well and good if every club has the same standard of screen and the ref can see it properly but they differ and many decisions rest on fine margins that the ref can’t always see.

It does amuse me how referee bashing on a forum only happens when a team loses and a decision has gone against them. You haven’t been discussing many ref decisions that go in your favour when you win (I know there have been some). Refs are human, do their best in the main and will never be robotically consistent and so will make mistakes, they all even them self out over a season.

There has been a lot of talk in the press lately about how players are losing respect for refs with back chat etc .... supporters are doing much the same with frequent ref bashing generally when their team loses (whether they blame the ref for the loss or not).

1- No ref bashing from this weekend in my post above.
We lost fair and square and even if there was a forward pass (not sure that rule is really relevant anymore) we would still be beaten in the scheme of things.
2- If every team in the premiership has the same rules they should have the same standard of screens,whether that is paid for by the league or teams shouldn't matter,it should be a prerequisite of being part of the Premiership

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Geronimo Jim (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 10:46
Watch your ticket price rise as Sandy Park invest in ultra high definition wide-screen video screens for the benefit of the referee!

 
Garnett
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Garnett (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 13:32
I choose to look at the positive examples of refereeing that I see. Rob has spent alot of time AT Members Forum explaining why they did not get into the 'blaming the ref' game. You have an RFU Rep, analysis by both teams by independent companies and an independent RFU company all trying to ensure that all is fair of all is exploited to the max depending on the brief! There was also the ability for the DIR to make a written representation about the game. That stopped because 2 DIRs complained every week and the rest remained silent. Both were former England Forwards and both lost their jobs in the Prem!

You have to love Nigel Owens if you listen during a game with the Ref in a Box. This year my stand out Ref was Romain Poite in the Leinster game. He went to the TMO for a the first try. Lots of the conversation in French but he asked the TMO Try Yes or Know? I am looking for a grounding. Lots of review time. TMO - you can award the Try. Romain Poite - That was not the question you were asked - Did you see a grounding? TMO - No. Romain Poite - No Try.

It was pure professionalism and a pleasure to listen to.

I think it is important that we applaud great reffing when we see it rather than winge when we legitimately lost a game that we had no business winning due to complacency.

Garnett

 
ukms
Re: Standards of Refereeing
ukms (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 13:41
Quote:
Zyder head
Quote:
ukms
Quote:
Zyder head
With the speed of the game now we have to accept that on field referees will miss more than they used to which is where the TMO comes in.
My main and probably only real irk with the TMO is who makes the final decision. We have seen several times that the TMO even with the benefit of replays gets things badly wrong,as in the Thrush try against us at Gloucester. My wish is that we just have the on field referee view the replay on the big screen,no dialogue of opinions between TMO and on field Sir,just facts as in "no further camera angles available Wayne" etc and then then on field Sir makes the final call. I really hate this "do you agree with me?" conversation! If you are the referee you are capabl
e of making a decision on your own on what you see not asking someone else's opinion.
I am sure that the quick conversion option will disappear at the end of the season.

That’s all well and good if every club has the same standard of screen and the ref can see it properly but they differ and many decisions rest on fine margins that the ref can’t always see.

It does amuse me how referee bashing on a forum only happens when a team loses and a decision has gone against them. You haven’t been discussing many ref decisions that go in your favour when you win (I know there have been some). Refs are human, do their best in the main and will never be robotically consistent and so will make mistakes, they all even them self out over a season.

There has been a lot of talk in the press lately about how players are losing respect for refs with back chat etc .... supporters are doing much the same with frequent ref bashing generally when their team loses (whether they blame the ref for the loss or not).

1- No ref bashing from this weekend in my post above.
We lost fair and square and even if there was a forward pass (not sure that rule is really relevant anymore) we would still be beaten in the scheme of things.
2- If every team in the premiership has the same rules they should have the same standard of screens,whether that is paid for by the league or teams shouldn't matter,it should be a prerequisite of being part of the Premiership

I’ll rephrase that as “official” bashing/criticism...... I know you didn’t blame the loss on the ref but my point being is that it’s unlikely that you post about the ref when you win winking smiley

I don’t disagree about the screens but the reality is it ain’t going to happen because that’s why the TMO watches screens in a very expensive truck.

In relation to the dialogue the good book states ......

”When the TMO has concluded their analysis, he/she will provide the match referee with their advice and recommendations. The referee should repeat the TMO’s recommendation to ensure that he/she is absolutely satisfied that they have heard what has been recommended”

Perhaps that’s why you get the dialogue you don’t like ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2018 13:50 by ukms.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Standards of Refereeing
clalan (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 14:29
Quote:
Geronimo Jim
Watch your ticket price rise as Sandy Park invest in ultra high definition wide-screen video screens for the benefit of the referee!

Don't give TR another reason

 
mommentum
Re: Standards of Refereeing
mommentum (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 17:57
Many times the ref will ask the tmo to look at something while the game is allowed to play on. If you take is away from the ref he would have to stop the game to look at the screen

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Standards of Refereeing
fatheralice (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 20:22
Good article on refs in the Telegraph today

Quote:
charlie Morgan in the Telegraph


Charlie Morgan
9 JANUARY 2018 • 7:06 PM
“This takes me back,” declares Matthew Carley, who sent off England prop Joe Marler on Saturday at the AJ Bell Stadium in Salford. The rangy, amusing 33-year-old breaks from some stretches to shuffle his shoulders as club classic Show Me Love by Robin S pulses across the gym. Carley’s dancing draws a laugh out of Sara Cox, the RFU’s first professional female referee.

Welcome to Twickenham Stadium, and the first day of the working week for the best full- and part-time officials in England. The camaraderie among an eclectic blend of characters is upbeat and infectious – exactly as you would expect from any successful team in any walk of life.

A friendly Tom Foley shows me back through the tunnel to a changing room, where two more members of the Premiership panel – the engaging Ian Tempest and Wayne Barnes, a criminal barrister as well as the senior figure of this group – are locked in an earnest conversation about how the best touch-judges and television match officials communicate. Another, Karl Dickson, is on hand to wind them up when the tone becomes too serious for a Monday morning. The innate mischievousness of a scrum-half does not diminish.

Earlier this season, his first in the full-time program after retiring from playing, the 35-year-old former Harlequin caused a stir by suggesting that referees were fitter than those they oversaw. Indeed, body shapes are strikingly athletic and triangular across the board. That soon makes sense.

Dedicated strength and conditioning coach Alex Reid, part of a strong and varied support network that now includes a psychologist, outlines the forthcoming fitness session. Those who refereed on Sunday or had a particularly taxing match – their running loads are carefully monitored – have a ‘flush’ cycle to begin. Those who oversaw matches on Friday evening and Saturday and those feeling fresh enough have pyramid intervals to get through. So do I.

This comprises of 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off, 30 on, 30 off, 45 on, 45 off, one minute on, one minute off. You climb the set and go back down the other side twice. It proves to be a sweaty 20 minutes.

Everyone heads upstairs to a fleet of Wattbikes. I am sandwiched between Barnes and Foley. Trying, and miserably failing, to keep pace with the latter, I am soon too breathless to chat to the former. Barnes reveals that he has seen amazing strides in professionalism since he started in 2005. Reid counts experience with Fulham FC, Tottenham Hotspur, the FA and England Athletics on an impressive CV. She is now into her eighth season and has clearly been a significant influence.

“I’m so proud of them,” she says. “The aim has been to encourage an autonomy about their training and we have definitely done that. Some of them hit level 21 on yo-yo tests. They often get asked if they are sevens players.” On cue, Cox comes over and asks for some jellybeans, having emptied herself on the Wattbike. “She’s a star,” grins Reid as Cox turns away again. “She’ll keep up with a lot of the lads in the running we do.”


Carley giggles on a wobble board as I topple off another balance ball: “Don’t worry mate. We’ll shift some tin in a minute.” And they do.

The referees’ two team training days, Monday and Tuesday, both feature weights and foreshadow a week of preparation that can include helping out at club training sessions. Today, bench press and pull-ups are on the agenda in the upper-body split. Interestingly, image is as important as function here. As long as their cardiovascular levels are up to scratch, Reid wants her charges to fill their shirts so they can have a “presence” alongside hefty players. Dickson pairs off with Hamish Smales, an ex-England Students, Counties and Sevens representative.

He is one of four part-time assistant referees, who oversee Championship games and run touch in the Premiership, sometimes over the same weekend.

Adam Leal is another of these promising up-and-comers. Over an inevitably healthy lunch in the canteen, he tells me about assisting Barnes, which he did at the Ricoh Arena on Sunday as Wasps welcomed Saracens.

Prior to his matches, Barnes routinely holds a conference call with his tough-judges and TMO. They have already prepared individually, studying team selection and analysing the props on show to pick up likely scrummaging patterns.

“This isn’t so we go in with a pre-conceived idea,” Leal stresses. “We just want to know what could happen. So, for instance, we knew that [Saracens tighthead] Vincent Koch and [Wasps loosehead] Ben Harris like to bind low. We thought there might be a few collapses, but it wasn’t a problem in the end.”

Leal believes Barnes can exude calm on match-day, answering fans’ photo requests on the way to the stadium, because of this diligence beforehand.

The next section of the day, a game review, illustrates what he means more fully. In a box overlooking the Twickenham pitch, Barnes is joined by Leal and the inimitable Tony Spreadbury. Foley, who had a rare Premiership round off, is there too. Like Barnes and Leal, he has watched the game back and made notes – yet more evidence of teamwork.

By this point, less than 24 hours after the final whistle, Barnes has submitted a report that goes to both teams as well as Spreadbury, his personal coach and the RFU’s head of referees. This outlines how he feels he has managed set-pieces, breakdowns, the offside line and “high-impact decisions” leading to tries, cards or an emotional spike. Now, with his own notes, he goes through footage of the match. The detail is staggering.

With a big screen pausing regularly – once every 45 seconds, on average – Leal and Barnes discuss the occasion as they saw it play out. Spreadbury and Foley chip in with questions and observations. Most soundbites focus on technicalities and on-field dialogue, but there are also enthusiastic comments of well-informed rugby fans. Throughout, accountability is palpable.

Barnes clarifies decisions and freely admits errors, voicing slight irritation at himself for missing an early clear-out from James Gaskell that goes too far beyond the ruck – not because it should have been penalised, but because mentioning it to Gaskell at the next stoppage may have set a stronger tone. He also highlights calls that he is pleased with, such as Owen Farrell’s yellow card, brandished authoritatively without consulting TMO Sean Davey.

Greyer areas and incidents that merit debate, like a muscular charge-down on Willie Le Roux from Michael Rhodes that might have drawn a penalty, are clipped out and sent to analyst Lewis Heathorn for the group session to come. The four officials in the room do not always agree. They also applaud players for intelligence that challenges law interpretation – such as Farrell draining the clock by taking 80 seconds of his allocated 90 to kick a conversion in the dying moments. Gamekeepers appreciating poachers – this is a refreshing impression to bring away from an exhaustive review that truly reflects rugby’s nuances.


Next, Barnes, Leal and Foley file out of the box. Spreadbury stays behind with the rest of the management group, among them national referee academy manager Chris White. They consider appointments for the next round of Premiership games.

“We’ve got to get the right man for the right game,” says Spreadbury. “Form is a consideration. That’s tough, but it’s the world we’re in.”

All of the referees return for the final part of the day. One by one, the six men who took charge of a Premiership fixture in round 13 offer a brief presentation, giving an overview of any flashpoints, team and player behaviours and trends that could extend later into the season. A couple of clips from each match are put to the floor for a fascinating debate that is frank yet collaborative. JP Doyle and Carley are both vocal and insightful.

Player safety and spectator experience are two constant concerns and their razor-sharp empathy with the sport is obvious. They know to watch out for opportunistic players drop-kicking guilty conversions because there might have been a knock-on in the build-up to a try. They realise they could miss a punch-up by running towards the posts after awarding a penalty try. They believe that subtle offences that do not overly affect the flow of a game often warrant a stern word rather than a penalty. Occasionally, a player who scraps hard and fair at the breakdown can be given the benefit of the doubt.

Tempest sums up this up brilliantly: “We could give 200 technical decisions in a game, I guess. Then nobody would come next week.” As scrutiny on referees continues to climb while rugby matures as a professional sport, it is worth remembering the standards these men and women expect of themselves and strive to achieve




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2018 21:16 by fatheralice.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Standards of Refereeing
Lowerwatha (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 07:54
Just read the same article FA, excellent read, here is the Link if anyone wants the the pictures in the article!


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?