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Wampum
Box Kicks
Wampum (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 11:08
I often have discussions after a game about this so open it up for comment. We seem to kick quite long and then chase and defend close to the halfway line. Is this a poor kick or a tactic? Should our chase and challenge be better like Sarries seem to do?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 12:11
When Sarries kicked, They generally kicked short. The intention was to try and get a man underneath to challenge and win the ball back, This was something they did a couple of times with Nathan Earle. On the other hand Exeter's tactic wasn't about winning the ball back, It was more about kicking them back. The idea is that with a decent chase you can force a mistake or a mis-kick and get a better position in terms of overall territory gain and field position.

Chiefs kick and chase game is more about field position and territory rather than a quick gain from getting someone under the ball. If they do it then great, But its more about either forcing the mistake or trying to get better field position to attack from.

Its high risk, But its also high reward.

 
Footy Chief
Re: Box Kicks
Footy Chief (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 12:30
I’d say that the Sarries short kick to compete system is far higher risk.

kick short, knock on - opposition attacking scrum in your half
Kick long and chase well opposition back in their own half

It’s about playing the percentages, often a short box kick hands the ball back to your opponent and you’re back defending in your own half

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 12:43
Problem is it depends who your kicking at. Kick directly down the throat of a fullback with a good running game (like Tigers fullback Telusa Veainu for instance) and any defence can if the chase is not good enough find themselves gaining very little

 
Peter Ord
Re: Box Kicks
OAP (Over a pint) (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 16:45
I’m still very old fashioned and if in your own 22 kick it as far as possible so that the game restarts with a line out rather than defending broken play

 
Footy Chief
Re: Box Kicks
Footy Chief (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 17:09
Quote:
OAP (Over a pint)
I’m still very old fashioned and if in your own 22 kick it as far as possible so that the game restarts with a line out rather than defending broken play

Same, Especially if you’re up on the scoreboard.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
fatheralice (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 19:36
the 1014 have done a good video about how the game has changed over the last few years.
They have a copy of an international team's playbook, which is over 120 pages long,
giving you some idea of how structured all aspects of the game have become (and why players don't normally just walk into a new team!)
Very interesting content -worth a watch, along with most of their other stuff....

Regarding the box kicks on Sunday, I think the wind had a big influence - both sides sytuggled when playing towards the NT, as the wind made judging the ball and reclaiming it very tricky







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2018 19:42 by fatheralice.

 
Garnett
Re: Box Kicks
Garnett (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 20:11
I asked Rob about this last year.

I agree it could be more accurate and Stu kicking left footed is interesting. This weekend we dummy kicked a lot which confused Sarries as that was not what they expected.

I was told it is about us having the highest 'in play' time in the country. Around 44 minutes? NZ do this all the time. We made a decision to be the fittest team in the land. We can control that and achieve it without cost.We dont have the money to buy a super team. Last year we saw big teams break at 50 minutes and we ran away. The final and extra time was the ultimate example.

Put simply if you kick it back and give them no rest the fittest team will win. We know Sarries are very close in fitness so we played a different game and took penalties.

That is my take.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
07 March, 2018 23:20
Quote:
OAP (Over a pint)
I’m still very old fashioned and if in your own 22 kick it as far as possible so that the game restarts with a line out rather than defending broken play

Teams like Exe aren't to concerned with defending deep. Ideally any kicks should perhaps go as far off the field as possible, But as Garnett notes, You're giving the opposition forwards a rest while they restart with their own lineout. If Exe are fitter than the rest I suppose they think its better to Keep it in field and force the error from a chase, Then you have the ball and you have not given the opponents time to recover. All part of grinding the opposition down physically I suppose.

 
ukms
Re: Box Kicks
ukms (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 04:56
Quote:
Garnett
I asked Rob about this last year.
I agree it could be more accurate and Stu kicking left footed is interesting. This weekend we dummy kicked a lot which confused Sarries as that was not what they expected.

I was told it is about us having the highest 'in play' time in the country. Around 44 minutes? NZ do this all the time. We made a decision to be the fittest team in the land. We can control that and achieve it without cost.We dont have the money to buy a super team. Last year we saw big teams break at 50 minutes and we ran away. The final and extra time was the ultimate example.

Put simply if you kick it back and give them no rest the fittest team will win. We know Sarries are very close in fitness so we played a different game and took penalties.

That is my take.

Interesting viewpoint, and funny how some have to slip money into a tactical discussion smiling smiley You might find that Exeter are not the small spending little club they once were !

You must have watched a different final to me...... if my memory serves me correctly you drew level very late in the game and kicked a pen at 97 minutes to deservedly win it. Hardly the ultimate example of breaking a team at 50 and running away with the game though. Not suggesting fatigue didn’t come into play but it was a finer margin than you describe. IMHO of course.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 05:33 by ukms.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Geronimo Jim (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 07:00
UKMS, you pick one game as a counter argument?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Lowerwatha (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 08:03
Nic White gets more distance on his box kicks than Chudders but agree it has nigh on impossible for the kick chasers to challenge for the ball when he gives it full welly.
I think we play better when we play into the wind at SP because we keep the ball in hand and play multiple phases.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 08:24
Quote:
ukms
Interesting viewpoint, and funny how some have to slip money into a tactical discussion smiling smiley You might find that Exeter are not the small spending little club they once were !

You must have watched a different final to me...... if my memory serves me correctly you drew level very late in the game and kicked a pen at 97 minutes to deservedly win it. Hardly the ultimate example of breaking a team at 50 and running away with the game though. Not suggesting fatigue didn’t come into play but it was a finer margin than you describe. IMHO of course.

If memory recalls Exeter didn't kick much in the final, From what I can recall they Preferred to run more at Wasps through the forwards.

Undeniably Exeter where the better team on both possession and territory stats for the final and considering how tired the Wasps players where at the final whistle can you really say they where fitter at the same time?

Breaking down a team is is really just a translation for running them off their feet and tiring them out, Chiefs kept their forwards going backwards and that burned them out to the point where Nathan Hughes and Matt Mullen gave away silly and sloppy penalties that cost you the game..

 
ukms
Re: Box Kicks
ukms (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 10:22
Quote:
Geronimo Jim
UKMS, you pick one game as a counter argument?

I'm not arguing ...... Just responding and commenting on the one game used by Garnett as the 'ultimate example'

Like I said there is no denying fitness and season fatigue played a part ...... my point was really that Exeter didn't run away with the game from 50 mins, so the final doesn't really support Garnetts 'Ultimate example' of running away with games from 50 because of fitness.

 
ukms
Re: Box Kicks
ukms (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 11:01
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
ukms
Interesting viewpoint, and funny how some have to slip money into a tactical discussion smiling smiley You might find that Exeter are not the small spending little club they once were !

You must have watched a different final to me...... if my memory serves me correctly you drew level very late in the game and kicked a pen at 97 minutes to deservedly win it. Hardly the ultimate example of breaking a team at 50 and running away with the game though. Not suggesting fatigue didn’t come into play but it was a finer margin than you describe. IMHO of course.

If memory recalls Exeter didn't kick much in the final, From what I can recall they Preferred to run more at Wasps through the forwards.

Undeniably Exeter where the better team on both possession and territory stats for the final and considering how tired the Wasps players where at the final whistle can you really say they where fitter at the same time?

Breaking down a team is is really just a translation for running them off their feet and tiring them out, Chiefs kept their forwards going backwards and that burned them out to the point where Nathan Hughes and Matt Mullen gave away silly and sloppy penalties that cost you the game..

I don't disagree with you at all .... however tiring players out at 97 minutes in a 3 point game is very different to running away with a game from 50 mins

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Box Kicks
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 13:53
Quote:
ukms
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
ukms
Interesting viewpoint, and funny how some have to slip money into a tactical discussion smiling smiley You might find that Exeter are not the small spending little club they once were !

You must have watched a different final to me...... if my memory serves me correctly you drew level very late in the game and kicked a pen at 97 minutes to deservedly win it. Hardly the ultimate example of breaking a team at 50 and running away with the game though. Not suggesting fatigue didn’t come into play but it was a finer margin than you describe. IMHO of course.

If memory recalls Exeter didn't kick much in the final, From what I can recall they Preferred to run more at Wasps through the forwards.

Undeniably Exeter where the better team on both possession and territory stats for the final and considering how tired the Wasps players where at the final whistle can you really say they where fitter at the same time?

Breaking down a team is is really just a translation for running them off their feet and tiring them out, Chiefs kept their forwards going backwards and that burned them out to the point where Nathan Hughes and Matt Mullen gave away silly and sloppy penalties that cost you the game..

I don't disagree with you at all .... however tiring players out at 97 minutes in a 3 point game is very different to running away with a game from 50 mins

Nobody said they ran away with the game, But they did tire out the Wasps forwards who where seemingly not as fit as their counterparts. Does the score really matter much in this situation? Not really considering there was no bonus points on the line and it was simply a win at all costs game. Exeter controlled the breakdowns and also controlled the field position which is all part of grinding teams down in order to gain these advantages to get yourself into those positions to win the game. It doesn't really matter much what the score difference was at the end of the day really in the grand scheme of things.

 
ukms
Re: Box Kicks
ukms (IP Logged)
08 March, 2018 16:32
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
ukms
Quote:
Tom A Hawk
Quote:
ukms
Interesting viewpoint, and funny how some have to slip money into a tactical discussion smiling smiley You might find that Exeter are not the small spending little club they once were !

You must have watched a different final to me...... if my memory serves me correctly you drew level very late in the game and kicked a pen at 97 minutes to deservedly win it. Hardly the ultimate example of breaking a team at 50 and running away with the game though. Not suggesting fatigue didn’t come into play but it was a finer margin than you describe. IMHO of course.

If memory recalls Exeter didn't kick much in the final, From what I can recall they Preferred to run more at Wasps through the forwards.

Undeniably Exeter where the better team on both possession and territory stats for the final and considering how tired the Wasps players where at the final whistle can you really say they where fitter at the same time?

Breaking down a team is is really just a translation for running them off their feet and tiring them out, Chiefs kept their forwards going backwards and that burned them out to the point where Nathan Hughes and Matt Mullen gave away silly and sloppy penalties that cost you the game..

I don't disagree with you at all .... however tiring players out at 97 minutes in a 3 point game is very different to running away with a game from 50 mins

Nobody said they ran away with the game, But they did tire out the Wasps forwards who where seemingly not as fit as their counterparts. Does the score really matter much in this situation? Not really considering there was no bonus points on the line and it was simply a win at all costs game. Exeter controlled the breakdowns and also controlled the field position which is all part of grinding teams down in order to gain these advantages to get yourself into those positions to win the game. It doesn't really matter much what the score difference was at the end of the day really in the grand scheme of things.

agree with your views .... somebody did say they ran away .... the context of my reply was not to you but in response to Garrett implying that the final was the ‘ultimate example’ of Chiefs running away with the game after 50 mins because of their fitness.

 
Wampum
Re: Box Kicks
Wampum (IP Logged)
09 March, 2018 15:28
Err thanks for the relevant comments and to those that are not get off my post pls.

 
ukms
Re: Box Kicks
ukms (IP Logged)
09 March, 2018 17:07
Quote:
Wampum
Err thanks for the relevant comments and to those that are not get off my post pls.

“Get off my post” ...... are we a little sensitive ? winking smiley ...... most threads on sport network end up swerving off topic ...... chill out smiling smiley


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