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Re: Deano?
Rich W 28 February, 2012 10:50
I wasn't aware that I suggested we should not disapprove his behaviour. Nor that his actions were not wrong.

I simply said that in terms of his crime and the penalty paid for it he has in, the vernaccular, served his time (as laid down in law and adjudged by an impartial and approved judiciary) and should be allowed to continue his career.

To prevent him from so doing would be perverse and unjust.

To adjudge his moral worth without knowing his personality in the light of his sentence is both impossible and also unjust. One might argue that it is down to those who might interview him for future employment to use their skills and judgement to decide whether he has been rehabilitated and worthy of a further chance. But it would be wholly unfair to refuse him that opportunity.



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Re: Deano?
scrum1/2 28 February, 2012 13:01
Hmmm, prisons are full of re-offenders, don't bank on him having learned his lessons.

Re: Deano?
citizen-slacker 28 February, 2012 13:14
I wonder how many people will condemn the Murdochs, News of the Screws & the Sun, but keep their Sky boxes?

I believe in punishment & rehabilitation. It forms the central basis of my job, so if the rehabilitation has not worked then it can be the fault of the sentencing body.

I also believe in spent convictions not being held over people for former misdemeanours. If he reoffends, that is his choice (or was he pushed to do so at 'Quins?) & then the knives can come back out.

If he comes to the Falcons then he comes with a history, but not just a negative one. If, though, if.

Re: Deano?
Oxonian 28 February, 2012 13:19
If rehabilitation does not work it is the sole fault of the offender not the sentencing body!

Re: Deano?
Rich W 28 February, 2012 13:33
So if the wrong penalty is imposed encouraging the offender to believe that his/her offence was nugatory it isn't the fault of the sentencing body? Odd.

There are those who believe that Dean should have been banned for life (I'm not one of them - I don't believe in refusing the opportunity of rehabilitation - hence my key objection to the death penalty) but at least I can understand their view - they deem the penalty inadequate. But to seek to over-rule that penalty by imposing further punishment because you don't agree with the original is not the rule of law - it's called vigilantism. It's like a player deciding that the referee's sanction of another player is inadequate and chosing to right the perceived wrong himself - this usually results in the dismissal of the the retaliator.

If he has not learned his lesson - further - more swingeing penalty will follow any future infraction. I don't think we can make any safe assumptions about contrition and rehabilitation without further evidence. So at this point we have to assume (and to accept) that his punishment was fair, has been served, and that he deserves a second chance.



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Re: Deano?
Quin Kong 28 February, 2012 13:37
A great bloke you'll be very lucky having him.



QUIN KONG

Re: Deano?
citizen-slacker 28 February, 2012 13:38
Quote:
Oxo
If rehabilitation does not work it is the sole fault of the offender not the sentencing body

If you offer the wrong rehabilitation (or indeed none) then all you have done is go for retribution, not offer justice. If somebody chooses not to engage in rehabilitation then they will probably reoffend & be back at square one.

Hell fire, reasoned debate over crime & punishment, this board HAS changed for the better (Sm152)

Re: Deano?
Monkey1 28 February, 2012 13:53
Taking all of the above into account I would reckon that Deans punishment was if anything on the severe side of things, he has been punished, we move on from there. It is now in the past, history, over with.

Anybody who fails to understand that simple principle is either a bigot or a vigilante & I dislike both.

Re: Deano?
Leipziger 28 February, 2012 13:54
I'm going to go with Oxonian on this, it is the offender that chooses to re-offend. One solution is to pass a sentence that means the offender is either deterred from re-offending or is not able to re-offend.

Re: Deano?
Rich W 28 February, 2012 14:09
But the point is that failure to impose such a sentence that the offender considers re-offending reasonable is the failure of the sentencing authority.

This is not about absolving offenders of responsibility but ensuring that penalties imposed are appropriate and effective in ensuring that they accept responsibility for their actions.



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Re: Deano?
citizen-slacker 28 February, 2012 14:33
Effective erehabilitation is getting the offender to realise their resposibilities & have them face the consequences of their actions.

Locking somebody in a glorified cage for 23 hours a day is punative but ineffective at preventing further offending.

Likewise, the death penalty does not lower the murder rate in any country that it is imposed.

Just banning Deano may have been enough to satisfy the blood thirsty (pun intended) but if (big if) it was his decision to use fake replacements then he could/should have been put in to a more wothy or worthwhile position, coaching, mentoring, educating on his own time as part of the reparation. Same that soem players have been forced to work with younger players, train to be referees or undertake promtional work as part of their bans.


I'd like to think of him as still having some integrity - when Quins were relegated Richards told all his players to buy their opposite number a drink after the game, to show that there was still tradition worth keeping in rugby & also that as a team they were not above their Championship rivals.

Re: Deano?
Kwa444 28 February, 2012 14:41
My feeling is that DR isn't stupid and loves the game. He wants to be England manager at some point and will probably make a good one too.

With that unfinished business he would be very foolish to re-offend and particularly as he will know he will be scrutinised far more than others because of previous form (whether we like that or not).

I think the only thing about the whole affair that still sticks a little in the gullet for me is that on the whole rugby playing planet he was the only one even remotely linked to cheating of any sort really. I think it would be naive to think he was the only one in the premiership, let alone the UK, let alone the rugby world.

Justice is only justice when it applies to all equally, not when some are more equal than others or when someone is made an example of.

Re: Deano?
Rich W 28 February, 2012 15:06
But - in fairness - who else should have been punished? No-one else was caught. You can't absolve Dean simply because he was the only caught.

What is wrong is how little action seems to have been taken to identify and catch others.



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Re: Deano?
lizard118 28 February, 2012 16:16
Everyone deserves a second chance fundamentally. He cheated was caught and served his time, so he must be allowed to do his job. My understanding last time I checked is that he didnt receive a life ban, so from a legal point he is free from whence his ban finishes to contract with whomever he wishes.

Morally, he has also paid his debt to society through his conscience, pocket, and general perception by others. I'm sure this has not affected just him but also his immediate family and anyone connected with him, in varying degrees.

Should his punishment continue without end just because some think what he did was morally reprehensible?

It's not as if he killed someone. Even murderers get a second chance so why shouldnt he? He has done his time and I'm sure the episode will play on his conscience long after his ban has finished, That's enough punishement for me. Give the man a break to continue with his trade.Let he who hasn't sinned be the first to throw the stone....

Re: Deano?
limpopo 28 February, 2012 17:05
God.....this is getting serious and there was I thinking it was a topic board about rugby and the Falcons in particular!!!

Re: Deano?
Happy Hooker 28 February, 2012 17:28
If Deano reads this thread he's probably decided he doesn't want the job anyway!

Re: Deano?
limpopo 28 February, 2012 17:40
Too right, you wouldn't get odds that's for sure!

Re: Deano?
steve1888 28 February, 2012 18:54
I love the goodie goodie folk that post online condemning anyone that has done wrong - i'm pretty sure we'll have all done something we regret in the past.

People still love Epi on here and he bit someone on the pitch - blood capsule is nowt compared to an act like that or stamping or eye gouging yet a much longer ban.

I'd welcome him and his experience and winning mentality !

Re: Deano?
Monkey1 28 February, 2012 19:22
I think he will get critical comments wherever he goes, I suppose it is something he has to live with. Despite a few who will not let the past go, I think the majority would welcome him to KP.

I think he was punished harshly for his part in what went on, he has acted since with good grace, as far as I am concerned he would be arriving at Kingston Park with a clean slate & a warm welcome.

Re: Deano?
ninjaboy 29 February, 2012 20:26
Quote:
Monkey1
Taking all of the above into account I would reckon that Deans punishment was if anything on the severe side of things, he has been punished, we move on from there. It is now in the past, history, over with.
Anybody who fails to understand that simple principle is either a bigot or a vigilante & I dislike both.
Prossional cricketers currently in jail for offences of cheating. Makes his "punishment" sound less severe in those circumstances.

Re: Deano?
Rich W 29 February, 2012 20:48
They committed a criminal offence. There's the difference.



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Re: Deano?
lizard118 01 March, 2012 00:12
The arguments against DR taking over are really not persuading me much as I would also try to understand the point of view of those against his appointment, if indeed we want him to come.
How does the cricketers who bet for money, dealing with criminals and the underworld compare to what happened with DR? There is no comparison whatsoever and those cricketers are rightly where they should be.

This thread is going nowhere and these very rigid ideas that someone should be punished for all eternity just because they cheated in a game of rugby, have no place in modern society.I have not been persuaded in a substantive way by the arguments against.

Re: Deano?
Getitright 01 March, 2012 09:03
Luckily the thoughts of those on this subject will have no bearing on whether DR comes to KP or not.

At the moment though I'd say it's a better than even chance!

No knowledge, just MO.

Re: Deano?
Cantabrian 01 March, 2012 09:41
GIR, the sources that inform your betting instincts must be persuasive.

Re: Deano?
There's 35 seconds to go 01 March, 2012 09:46
If he comes and then goes about sullying the good name of the falcons with Heineken cup rugby and championship playoffs I will be gutted...

Re: Deano?
Almostan Oldgit 01 March, 2012 09:54
I would be happy to see DR here if GG does not want to stay (could possibly even persuade myself that it would be good even if GG wants to stay), though I do have reservations about the amount of time he has spent out of the game and how much it has changed in the intervening years. But I cannot agree that his punishment was too severe Monkey. I think a strong punishment was needed to make a statement that the game will not tolerate blatant cheating - it was far more serious imho than "bending the rules", "using experience", "operating on the edge of the law" or any amount of other euphemisms for cheating of the nature that goes on week after week at all levels of the game. He organised artificial blood to be brought onto the pitch and instructed a player to fein injury by using the blood so that he could bring a specialist onto the pitch. Such pre-meditated cheating is not tolerable and could lead to further more widespread detioration of the game. Further such offences, by any perpetrator, should be even more severly punished until such practices are stopped. I would estimate that the practice of resting props has greatly reduced since Bloodgate, certainly at KP, which to me says that the message got through. The debate about the fairness of DR being the only one caught is a different matter all together, clearly there was a lot more pre-meditated cheating going on. But a statement was made and seems to have had an effect, DR has served his time with good grace, and I believe now he should have the right to resume his job.

Re: Deano?
Leipziger 01 March, 2012 10:02
Quote:
There's 35 seconds to go
If he comes and then goes about sullying the good name of the falcons with Heineken cup rugby and championship playoffs I will be gutted...

(Sm22) Whatever would we do without our annual relegation battle?

Re: Deano?
Monkey1 01 March, 2012 10:12
Quote:
lizard118
The arguments against DR taking over are really not persuading me much.....

Actually Lizard, if you read the thread from top to bottom there are no arguments against. Lukelisa is the only one not in favour if you ignore the umpteen pointless contributions from Ninja who doesn't even appear to be a Falcons supporter. Everybody else very much in favour so it looks like DR would be welcomed to Kingston Park if Gold is moving on in the summer.

Re: Deano?
DB23 01 March, 2012 11:46
I would welcome DR to KP. I thought his punishment was severe; to deprive someone of their livelihood for three years is punitive. The Bloodgate episode was almost comical but I do understand it in the context of the seriousness regarding fair play in a rugby match.

Cheating in rugby matches is certainly not at an end and players, with coaches’ acquiescence or instruction, continue to push the boundaries.

Rich W quite rightly pointed out it was not a criminal offence. His time is served, has kept a dignified silence in accepting his punishment, and it’s time to move on. He will find employment with us or another club and I’m sure he will do a good job.

I do also hope GG is being considered, if he is making himself available, as I am very impressed with his management so far.

Re: Deano?
ninjaboy 01 March, 2012 12:56
Don't get personal Monkey. It is rude. I've bought a lot of tickets and watched the falcons a lot of times not to be a "supporter". Feel free to ignore my contributions if you don't like them. It is difficult to ignore your comments, but well worth the effort.

Re: Deano?
Quinten Poulsen 01 March, 2012 15:01
Quote:
ninjaboy
Don't get personal Monkey. It is rude. I've bought a lot of tickets and watched the falcons a lot of times not to be a "supporter". Feel free to ignore my contributions if you don't like them. It is difficult to ignore your comments, but well worth the effort.

It's difficult to ignore your comments also - some of them are so facile.

Re: Deano?
Leipziger 03 March, 2012 21:26
Daily Mail reckons Richards will be joining us. Not that I'd consider a tabloid to be the bastion of truth on club rugby.

Re: Deano?
Running Rugby 03 March, 2012 22:16
With Dean Richards ban ending in August, and the rumours of an appointment around that time, then it doesn't leave a great deal of room for contract renewals and new signings, but I guess that if it happened, then Deano would be working on all of these things backstage so to speak and out of the limelight with Semore Kurdi.

Going to be interesting times whatever happens.

Re: Deano?
Kwa444 05 March, 2012 12:53
The Leicester Mercury had Deano joining us a couple of days ago too. Usually pretty reliable once they print something on rugby.

Re: Deano?
London_Falcon 06 March, 2012 07:55
Deano will be joining us. His appointment is not dependent on us avoiding the drop either.

Re: Deano?
Monkey1 06 March, 2012 09:37
I assume you have a good sauce LF.
(Sm3)

Re: Deano?
Thespence_uk 08 March, 2012 20:56

Re: Deano?
Bedfordshire Boy 13 March, 2012 22:44
[quote citizen-slacker]Effective erehabilitation is getting the offender to realise their resposibilities & have them face the consequences of their actions.

Locking somebody in a glorified cage for 23 hours a day is punative but ineffective at preventing further offending.

Likewise, the death penalty does not lower the murder rate in any country that it is imposed.

Just banning Deano may have been enough to satisfy the blood thirsty (pun intended) but if (big if) ???? Who else was it then? it was his decision to use fake replacements then he could/should have been put in to a more wothy or worthwhile position, coaching, mentoring, educating on his own time as part of the reparation. Same that soem players have been forced to work with younger players, train to be referees or undertake promtional work as part of their bans.

[quote citizen-slacker]I wonder how many people will condemn the Murdochs, News of the Screws & the Sun, but keep their Sky boxes?

I believe in punishment & rehabilitation. It forms the central basis of my job, so if the rehabilitation has not worked then it can be the fault of the sentencing body.

I also believe in spent convictions not being held over people for former misdemeanours. If he reoffends, that is his choice (or was he pushed to do so at 'Quins? So it wasn`t Deano at all but some mysterious person at Quins!!) & then the knives can come back out.



I'd like to think of him as still having some integrity - when Quins were relegated Richards told all his players to buy their opposite number a drink after the game, to show that there was still tradition worth keeping in rugby & also that as a team they were not above their Championship rivals.[/quote]

Re: Deano?
Getitright 14 March, 2012 07:37
BB,

Don't worry! When we announce his arrival you can be sure that he will start his rehabilitation in the North East. We'll look after him!

Re: Deano?
Monkey1 14 March, 2012 08:09
Indeed GiR, I will more than happily buy him a pint & make him welcome here.
(Sm128)

Re: Deano?
citizen-slacker 14 March, 2012 11:43
Quote:
Bedfordshire Boy
Who else was it then?

I doubt we'll find that out until Deano's posthumous autobiography. If ever.

Re: Deano?
ra 14 March, 2012 11:47
Quote:
posthumous autobiography
(Sm8)

Re: Deano?
Bedfordshire Boy 14 March, 2012 12:32
Quote:
citizen-slacker
Quote:
Bedfordshire Boy
Who else was it then?

I doubt we'll find that out until Deano's posthumous autobiography. If ever.

So in fact your statements are pure conjecture.

I am a great Deano fan - he made a mistake and has paid the price. At the time everybody got on their high horse and a public hanging was too good for him. Now all of a sudden he is on his way to Falcons and it appears perhaps that he had nothing to do with Bloodgate at all but it was the Club (Quins). At least accept the past for what it is and move on as us lot down south have had to do.
As I said earlier, good luck to the man and the club.

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