Latest news:

Welcome to the Newcastle Falcons Fans Forum

This forum is for all Falcons' fans, and is independent of the both the club and the supporters association. If you have something to say about Newcastle Falcons this is the place to say it. However please keep it clean and non abusive, and respect the other users of this board!

While the editors of this site monitor the board, they are not responsible for the content of the postings. Any concerns, complaints etc... should be emailed to Sportnetwork. If you want to spam, please goelsewhere any spamming will be deleted.

Next two matches

Saturday 21 September 2019 v Jersey Reds at Stade Santander International, 3.00pm (Cup)

Sunday 29 September 2019 v Doncaster Knights at Kingston Park, 3.00pm (Cup)


Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2
Time to relegate relegation?
Discussion started by FalconsRugby.org.uk , 04 July, 2016 22:12
Time to relegate relegation?
FalconsRugby.org.uk 04 July, 2016 22:12
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
limpopo 05 July, 2016 11:19
Excellently summed up monkey and so true, perhaps 14 teams in the Premiership, but one apart from London Irish?

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
DJMc 05 July, 2016 12:09
A very interesting piece and I especially like the analogy of 13 teams trying to fit into 12 places. There is certainly a yo-yo effect with the relegated team coming straight back up (apart from Bristol). However despite your cogent argument I am still in favour of promotion and relegation. As for Bedford being happy to stay in the Championship, there teams such as Cornish Pirates itching to go come up and test their strength against the "big boys" and looking to make the investment to allow that to happen.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
limpopo 05 July, 2016 12:37
As yet the Pirates stadium is not up to Premiership requirements and the County Council seem to be dragging their feet regarding Truro and funding for the proposed new centre

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
steve1888 05 July, 2016 13:25
Leeds/Yorkshire seem to have invested for next season to give Irish a run and Jersey seem to be steadily building - could they be the next Exeter in a couple of seasons? Also no promotion would put off would be investors that could transform clubs.

Other clubs could argue well why not cut the premiership to 10 and add a couple in the Championship make it more competitive and add interest perhaps as those at the bottom seem to be there more often than not.

Also how many dead rubber games once the top 6 are out of reach ? Would that result in lower crowds and less interest?

There's probably not a perfect way off doing it but for me decent as it is or have a play off between 2nd bottom in prem and 2nd bottom in championship maybe.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
DJMc 05 July, 2016 13:37
I know that Cornish Pirates ground doesn't currently meet Premiership standards but the will to change is there and when everything is in place they should be able to compete and take promotion should they top the Championship table. I appreciate that Bedford have made a different decision but there are ambitious clubs in the Championship.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Monkey1 05 July, 2016 14:57
The only way that I can see promotion & relegation remaining viable is to bring the salary cap down to something that the top Championship clubs can aspire to, perhaps as low as 3m for example, and have it stringently enforced. Otherwise the jump up is always going to be too great unless a club (like Bristol) has somebody uber wealthy supporting it, and the drop is also too big for clubs heading in the opposite direction.

The reality is that even the poorest Premiership clubs are operating with budgets of 6m or more. You cannot expect them to survive a drop to the Championship where they will be lucky to scratch together a budget of 2m. Any business put in that position over a short time scale will go bust, and rugby clubs are no different.

Similarly a Championship club like Pirates may have ambition, but unless they can operate at Premiership standard and budget for perhaps years in the Championship, they don't stand a chance in hell of ever being promoted, never mind surviving their first season up.

You can dream about the ideals if you wish, but the reality is that promotion & relegation is already history. No Championship club will ever step up unless somebody backs them with a stupid amount of money, and no Premiership club will ever leave the cartel of 13 unless they go bust or fall apart in some other terminal way.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Kwa444 05 July, 2016 15:00
How ironic for poor (!) Bristol. The season they finally make it through the minefield, it is finally removed. Their fans must feel both relieved and slightly sick....

Very well written article. I still wholly support the idea of a ring fenced 14 team premiership, slowly expanding as Championship teams reach a competitive level (in all areas not just on the pitch). This is what the Super 12, then 14, 15 and is it now 18? have done. Eventually we will be at 20 teams and can split to two competitive leagues with promotion and relegation again.

The good news is that London Welsh will have to properly win the Championship league for the first time in the professional era for a change - might upset their legal team though!

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
gtoughuk 05 July, 2016 15:29
I think we should increase the premiership to 14 but keep promotion and relegation. Then have winners of the championship automatically promoted and 14th in premiership automatically relegated. Then have a playoff between 13th in premier with 2nd 3rd and 4th of championship.

I know it's not the most popular option, but it encourages teams to keep trying till the end of the season. Plus it won't put off up and coming teams to invest and try and become competitive.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Osric 05 July, 2016 17:35
Yes, it is. Fourteen team prem, with no movement for a set number of years. This will allow for investment and a more expansive, attack minded game ( otherwise called entertainment).

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Monkey1 05 July, 2016 19:33
I have to say that expanding the prem to 14 and also having promotion/relegation and also bringing back the stupid play-offs but not even between the bottom or top teams is about as close to insanity as you could get while still being allowed to walk the streets.
(Sm100)

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Osric 05 July, 2016 21:17
Fourteen teams with no movement for at least five years and, preferably, a Yorkshire based team added into the mix ( for the good of the game in the north).

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Robs 06 July, 2016 00:50
Quote:
steve1888
....or have a play off between 2nd bottom in prem and 2nd bottom in championship maybe.

Might be a bit one sided!
Maybe 2nd bottom in the Prem v runner up in the Chumpionship ...?

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Monkey1 06 July, 2016 07:56
So if we now have 14 teams in the prem + 2 from the champ who could be promoted to the prem that means 16 clubs with prem budgets & facilities. What miracle is supposed to make that happen or do we just add 3 no-hopers & enjoy watching them get the living doo dah kicked out of them every year so we don't have to face possible relegation?

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
alas 06 July, 2016 08:32
A 14 team premiership is a bad idea. Would make the season too long - as in France - and divide the TV money 14 ways rather than 12 at a time when most clubs still make losses. Would probably go back to a play off between the bottom premiership club and winner of the championship so the best 12 teams are always in the premiership.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
cumbrian_falcon 06 July, 2016 09:03
I would make the premiership 14 teams, drop the lv cup so that the extra four games would be played on those weekends to avoid lengthening the season. I would then make it 2 up 2 down. Winner of the championship comes straight up with 2nd and 3rd playing off for the final spot. This gives sides better chance to bounce back but keeps the bottom end of the table interesting. There could be some awful games once sides have no chance of qualifying for the champions cup and a lot of dead rubbers. would we really get big gates for games in march and april if there was nothing to play for.

If we went down this year are folks then happy for the premiership to be ringfenced with us stuck in the championship

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
falconsfan07 06 July, 2016 10:47
I enjoy the relegation side of it me, less dead rubber games! coming towards the end of the sean if top 8 isn't in sight your fighting for your life, better crowds, better atmosphere! would be disappointed if they scrapped it, everyone deserves the opportunity to compete at the top!

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Rafpilot2000 06 July, 2016 16:33
Let's face it, the to end of the table is about as exciting as watching paint dry. I appreciate that Exeters great and deserved season brought something fresh but watching the big money joys of Leicester, Saints and Saracens steam roller the premiership is boring. The scrap at the bottom is like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyke. It's a car crash but you can't help watching. If there is no relegation then if you have a bottom club that is well adrift at the halfway point of the season they may as well give up on that campaign, and start getting ready for ing ready for the next which would be rubbish.
Obviously , from selfish perspective I want ils like it scrapped to preserve Falcons premiership status.
That said though I still feel that the top tier should be based on playing merit not size of your stadium. If a club with a tin shed and two porta-loos is the best team they should come up regardless if the ground only holds 500. London Welsh came up on playing merit then sold their soul to meet stadium criteria. That should t be the case. After our season exploring the delights of the championship I would be happy to stand in a field on Doncaster to watch the lads play

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
leemingtyke 06 July, 2016 20:30
Everyone seems very certain that the play-offs have gone.

In this interview with the rugby paper, Geech seems to suggest (right at the end) that maybe they havent.

[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Leipziger 06 July, 2016 21:08
Quote:
Osric
Fourteen teams with no movement for at least five years and, preferably, a Yorkshire based team added into the mix ( for the good of the game in the north).

If relegation were scrapped for five years, do you really think the cartel would allow it to start again? Even if they did, by then the gulf would have grown to such a point that relegation would have to be scrapped permanently anyway.

The current system, for all its faults, has one big plus point - clubs know exactly what they have to do to get promoted i.e. have access to a stadium that meets certain criteria and win the Championship in any given year. Saying "Do all this and we MIGHT let you into the Premiership in five years' time" is hardly going to encourage investment in Championship clubs.

People say we should scrap relegation to allow Premiership clubs to build sustainable businesses. Two thoughts: 1) Jersey and Cornish Pirates are building towards what they hope will be sustainable Premiership businesses, why should they be excluded because they weren't in the Premiership at some arbitrary point in time? 2) Rugby has been professional for 21 years - are we really to believe that the threat of relegation is the ONLY reason why clubs like the Falcons haven't become profitable yet?

A logical point to have ringfenced the top league might have been in 1995, when the game went pro. Bearing in mind that Newcastle Gosforth were in the second division at the time, would anyone on here have supported that?

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Osric 06 July, 2016 23:20
Personally, I prefer to watch entertaining championship rugby than negative, dull premiership rugby ( as we saw here three seasons ago).
For the good of the game, we need a geographical spread of clubs. Fourteen teams would help.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
falconsfan07 07 July, 2016 08:24
I'd just keep it the same, if you had 14 teams the bottom one would just get pumped every week, prem is fine as it is in my opinion, scrap for our lives makes it more exciting and means the game means a lot more!

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
pa8 07 July, 2016 11:31
If we did away with relegation from the top flight it might mean more patience being shown to younger EQPs and less money wasted on inferior foreign imports such as Fry, Clever, Andy Tuilagi etc etc. There'd be less need to 'fix it now' and, hopefully, more time for the academy to produce.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Northumbrian 07 July, 2016 19:16
Or, have 2 conferences of 8 teams with no relegations, Play a team in your own conference twice and the other conference teams once (22 games). Then have play-offs, which at least seem more appropriate than play-offs in one league.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Leipziger 07 July, 2016 19:29
Quote:
pa8
If we did away with relegation from the top flight it might mean more patience being shown to younger EQPs and less money wasted on inferior foreign imports such as Fry, Clever, Andy Tuilagi etc etc. There'd be less need to 'fix it now' and, hopefully, more time for the academy to produce.

The Falcons have given plenty of game time to the likes of McGuigan, Scott Wilson (when fit), Robinson, Watson.

If Fry, Clever and Andy Tuilagi played 20 league games between them for us (out of a possible 110 appearances), I'd be surprised, so it's not them who are keeping young English players out of the team.

The Falcons and other teams don't sign foreign players because they are foreign, but because they think these players are the best they can attract and afford. Thus logically, the alrernative English player must be inferior or more expensive. Either way, the club loses put by spending more or having an inferior team, and of course having an inferior team could mean reduced crowds. Of course, if a club has no interest in actually climbing the league and just wants to plod along and keep collecting the Premiership money, then that's not a problem for them, but I'm sure most supporters would like to think their club has more ambition than that.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Monkey1 07 July, 2016 20:13
If you were to ask Semore & Deano if together they could deliver a better future knowing that they can plan for at least the next 2 years, 3 years, maybe even 5 years in the Premiership I think I know what the answer would be.

I know some people are passionately wedded to the concept of relegation & promotion, but that is exactly my point, it is now just a concept, something to talk about, nothing more. It has already died, it is gone, finished, over. Maybe after the next 5 years of the same 13 teams playing a game of musical chairs with only 12 places, the annual farce of one of those teams dipping into the Championship then bouncing straight out again, and the Championship teams realising that no matter how much ambition they have, promotion is just never going to happen, people will finally accept that it is over.

RIP any meaningful promotion & relegation. I will mourn its passing as much as many others, but at least I will accept that it is now dead.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Osric 07 July, 2016 22:07
From the last three WCs there have been 8 SH semi finalists (including Argentina twice) and four from the NH. From them France (twice) and England (once) have promotion and relegation.
So 3/12.
As a Scot, it's irrelevant, but for the English fans out there could I suggest that a move to a fixed league might help the national game?

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Kwa444 08 July, 2016 08:19
Probably a very fair point that. Which goes hand in hand with the development of young English players. I don't agree with Leipy about the foreign imports being better or cheaper. They are used solely because at that time they have the experience in a results based relegation experience to hopefully keep the club up.

If relegation didn't feature do you honestly think that Deano or any other DoR would play a journeyman in front of a youngster with potential who is liable to be more committed for having the opportunity, and cheaper?

I would argue it is the reason Leicester were so strong until 2010 because until 2002 when they won a league without playoffs, they were so far in front by mid season that they could afford to risk developing players and see if they could make the grade. This carried them through for most of the decade. Imagine the players who might develop for England and the clubs if the clubs had this chance - like switching your development in F1 part way through a poor season.

At that juncture Leicester ' s academy was lauded, but I don't think it was better than others, they just gave their youngsters more of a chance, earlier.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
leemingtyke 08 July, 2016 18:24
GKIPA Championship fixtures released and Play Offs are retained.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
steve1888 08 July, 2016 18:47
Surely the club would suffer a bit with attendances without the relegation battle games and interest they generate.

Compare the pro12 and premiership rather than NH and SH.

To bring on youngsters it would be better limiting the amount of foreigners although Brexit may help that anyway if it goes through.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Kwa444 09 July, 2016 07:21
Wholly agree that would help Steve, though I think financial incentive seem to work best. As you say if there is no alternative that would work too though...

Yep play offs still seem to be in the Championship - was you statement in respect of the 2017/18 season, Monkey? - did seem rather close to the start of the season to be hearing about it for this season.

Don't agree about attendences - if the club are producing good rugby and stand a chance of winning a game, I am far more likely to watch than if they are rubbish and might just survive relegation. I have no enjoyment in watching the club scrape, and crawl and trip their way to retaining premiership survival. Just a huge sense of relief that they do.... I'm not a masochist so it's not fun and I don't want to watch.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
steve1888 09 July, 2016 09:48
I agree with you on watching Kwa but would we have got the attendances and atmosphere we did against Irish and Wuss especially without the must win game or relegation battle in there? Core support yes but doubt we would have seen the extra couple of thousand due to lack of interest.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
gtoughuk 09 July, 2016 20:50
Quote:
Osric
From the last three WCs there have been 8 SH semi finalists (including Argentina twice) and four from the NH. From them France (twice) and England (once) have promotion and relegation.
So 3/12.
As a Scot, it's irrelevant, but for the English fans out there could I suggest that a move to a fixed league might help the national game?

Don't forget France is full of foreign mercenaries who are only concerned about who is paying them a wage and not how the French national team is doing.


Quote:
Money1
I have to say that expanding the prem to 14 and also having promotion/relegation and also bringing back the stupid play-offs but not even between the bottom or top teams is about as close to insanity as you could get while still being allowed to walk the streets.

I understand your concerns about relegation, but I still feel it is needed to keep the sport competitive.

Other options for promotion/relegation include either the French system or rugby leagues super league. Neither is perfect. The French is league of 14 teams but bottom two relegated. Rugby league splits the league with bottom of the super league playing the top of the championship. Both have their pros and cons.

Whatever happens, there will still be arguments about if it's a good or bad idea.

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Leipziger 09 July, 2016 21:52
There are of course pros and cons to every type of system Gtough, as you say, but as an old romantic I can't see me ever getting on board with ringfencing. I might be a cynic, but I can't believe that any cartel members (Falcons included) are supporting the wider interests of rugby when they call for ringfencing - they are solely looking at their own interests.

What kind of playoff system, if any, is not as important to me as keeping Premiership status down solely to what happens on the pitch (yes, that means scrapping the cartel's Minimum Standards Criteria, if that would ever happen). I don't go to a game to look at how pretty a stadium is or check a club's financial solvency. If these things are so vital, should we give clubs extra league points for being profitable and having nicer stadiums with bigger crowds? No, of course not, so why should such criteria play a part in Premiership status?

Anyway, best I just agree to disagree perhaps, and go back to looking forward to the sevens :-)

Re: Time to relegate relegation?
Monkey1 10 July, 2016 13:01
Where did the news come from that the play-offs had been scrapped? That info is now looking a bit dodgy.

If we do need promotion & relegation then it has to ne realistic. The way that funding of the Premiership & Championship have been developing over the last few years, a gap has opened up that is now looking impossible to bridge. Bristol & Exeter with their moneybags backers now look like being the last teams that will ever make the move.

I don't know what the answer is, but I am far from happy with the idea that one of the thirteen clubs spends a season lording it around the Championship then bouncing back up again. That doesn't do the Championship clubs any good & almost certainly doesn't do the relegated club any good either.

Answers on a postcard please......

Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net