[url=http://[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]]Scrums[/url]

From the rugby paper - Jeff Probyn talking sense

I agree with Jeff Probyn. The scrum is now a total lottery, which takes too long to form and results in a penalty, or a collapsed scrum which the ref just ignores, as he sees the ball available at the back of the scrum, and he shouts to the scrum half to use it. Refs just ignore the rules when it suits them. Wayne Barnes allowed a scrum to wheel around in a recent game and said something like it was pivoting on its own axis, and gave a reset with the same put in. No refs punish a crooked feed which is still a law of the game, yet somehow know what one prop is doing, or not doing to another.

Watch how scrums used to be reffed. The front rows get to the mark, bind together. The locks bind and hey presto the scrum is formed without a word from Sir. Once steady, the hooker signals to the scrum half to put the ball in, strikes it back and the game goes on. Look at the old Lions tours of NZ and S Africa, and marvel at how little time is spent scrummaging.

Now it is all crouch, touchy feely, engage, Ref taps scrum half, or nods to him to put the ball in, and then gives a penalty for an illegal bind, or pull, or pre engage, or collapse, or not pushing straight. But the ref ignores the crooked feed, the easiest of all pens to spot. Why ??? Minutes are wasted on scrums being formed and re set. It drives me nuts.

Meanwhile props are getting bigger and bigger as they have so much spare time to go in the gym. Hookers don't need to hook because the scrum half just feeds the ball in crooked.

Pretty much bang on the nail.

Scrums have been refined, then improved, then further refined, then improved further, until they are no longer scrums. Put the blasted ball down the middle, compete for it, get on with the game. Stop faffing about.

Surely it can't be so difficult.

Funny, while reading it I thought ...
how about making the feed impartial?
the hooker of the team with the put in, gives a "thumbs up" once the scrums are set, and THE REF rolls the ball in down the central channel????

Along with points being gained from innocuous offences on the half way line, scrums and the time taken up with them are simply a joke. Who can forget school rugby when your hooker had to hook the ball as you were being driven back at a rate of knots by the huge kids at another school. Scrums are now just like their rugby league counterparts, pointless but in league at least there aren't multiple resets.

I've been racking what's left of my brain to come up with a solution to scrums. Sadly there is no quick fix. So how about stopping the clock when a scrum is awarded by the ref and not start it again until the scrum is completed. Refs can get back to sorting the crooked feed, it only needs a directive from the Gods above. Time then wasted on scrums will not count, and the fans will see more rugby in open play. Likewise the lineout, which seems to be taking longer and longer, as teams have a little huddle to decide what they are going to do. This will mean longer matches, but with so many replacements happening that doesn't matter. At least you will get value for money as a spectator. Perhaps one day the front rows will stop trying to con the ref to win a penalty, and for the sake of the game not collapse scrums. Just push straight, let the hookers have a fair contest, and get on with the game. We all want that I think.

Quote:

bulmer22
I've been racking what's left of my brain to come up with a solution to scrums. Sadly there is no quick fix. So how about stopping the clock when a scrum is awarded by the ref and not start it again until the scrum is completed. Refs can get back to sorting the crooked feed, it only needs a directive from the Gods above. Time then wasted on scrums will not count, and the fans will see more rugby in open play. Likewise the lineout, which seems to be taking longer and longer, as teams have a little huddle to decide what they are going to do. This will mean longer matches, but with so many replacements happening that doesn't matter. At least you will get value for money as a spectator. Perhaps one day the front rows will stop trying to con the ref to win a penalty, and for the sake of the game not collapse scrums. Just push straight, let the hookers have a fair contest, and get on with the game. We all want that I think.

That's not a bad set of ideas. At the very least, the clock should start when the scrum-half puts the ball in and stop if the referee blows the whistle to reset. It's ridiculous that a single scrum can take up two or more minutes of clock time.

Why is the fact that scrummages take a bit of time in the game such a problem? It is an important aspect of the game in my eyes, not just a "re-start". There are not that many scrums in a game anyway, so why is it a problem that they take a bit of time to sort out? The sport is for the players, the fact that a lot of people like the game and are prepared to pay to watch it, should not influence the laws or shape the format of the game imho; particularly as now the idea seems to be to grow the viewing audience so that more people watch it - if you don't like the game is it is (was) then don't watch it, it isn't right that the game I love should have to change its laws because you want to watch it but don't understand the laws or the nuances of the different aspects of the game. There are particular skills involved and particular physical attributes needed, which differentiate those players from the other players. Without these differences we would not have our game as it is, we would have some sort of bastardised league with every lump the same size and shape, with the same function.

That said, if the refs applied the laws properly, as Mr Probyn suggests, prime example being crooked feeds, then the scrum would function properly, even without the annoying crouch touch, shake hands, have a cup of tea then kiss and make up farce. Back in the day, if you struggled in the scrum then you got your 9 to put the ball in very quickly and out the back before the big lads on the other side had time to crush you - that wasn't so bad!
Come to think of it, all this bullsh!t with refs telling 9s to "use it or lose it" needs to stop as well; why should the attacking team pass the ball before they are set and ready, it is of no advantage to anyone to do so - except the opposition and the uneducated modern superfan of course!

Leave the laws alone unless the good of the game is involved, not the watching public! Rant over.

The mess of the scrum was highlighted this afternoon in the France Wales game. A lot of people rate Wayne Barnes as a top ref, but can anyone explain to me what was going on in the 20 minutes after the clock turned red after 80 minutes. Here we had a ref who ignores the law regarding crooked feeds into the scrum. This is ironic as Mr Barnes is a barrister who earns his crust upholding the law. Brian Moore in commentary made a valid rant about refs ignoring this law. Then in those last 20 minutes Wayne gets into a position where he knows France are going to score and yet doesn't give any more yellow cards for repeated penalties in the red zone. A total farce. He should have given a penalty try. The end result would have been the same.

The problem is that a penalty try can (should) only be given if the offence prevents what would have been a certain try rather than a likely try.

That must be one of the laws he chooses to uphold. He wouldn't do that in his day job.

Barnes took a lot of stick yet he was about the only honest guy on the pitch, including coaches and doctors!

Thought he dealt with the 'last scrum' with great diplomacy and integrity. It only needed him to yellow a Welsh front rower and Wales would have got out of gaol with uncontested scrums. He did what he could re the alleged biting and the questioning of the French doctor re the HIA.
Something needs to be done to sort the scrums out. For a start if the Laws state that the ball should be fed straight into the tunnel then it should be fed straight into the tunnel!
Otherwise the Laws need changing!

The fact that every referee, both league and international, fail to penalise crooked feeds suggests they've been told to do so I reckon.

I made the comment during the 20 mins redzone time that I was glad it was Barnes and not anyone else.