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Last result: Newcastle Falcons 32-27 Dragons


Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 14:07
Billy V thinks that players may strike due to the demands put upon them these days:

Planet Rugby

Simple solution; stop playing international rugby if you can't manage that as well as your club rugby, or vice versa.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 15:06
Have to agree with Billy on this one as the demands on the elite players are far too excessive and are fuelled by greed by the powers that be (and to be fair it's not just rugby that has this problem)

Whereas I certainly would not agree to strike action I believe that it really is time for the powers that be to take a serious look at this to protect the long term future of the game.

Yes, some folks will say that that are proffesional sports people and are very well paid but both the body and mind can only take so much.

I'm sure this topic will receive some mixed opinions from our posters.....

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
aidanb (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 15:29
Billy is spot on

either the clubs get more players for the salary cap or the players say enough is enough.

He's actually suggesting there that he doesn't want more cash himself as part of the salary cap increase, but actually wants bigger squads

Great concept

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Timeshock! (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 19:15
I fail to see the logic of Billy V, it is demonstrated in sport where money is awash but salary caps are not in place that top players will always take more and take the lion share. No-one could put a figure on what is a sufficient/equitable sum for players. Therefore putting a salary cap in place leaves it up to the club on where to place their money, on a few top players or reduce this figure to broaden the squad. In addition to how many games they are playing, how many of the top players/internationals are playing all the matches available, if they are international duty the are not playing league/cup matches. If they were fully available they would be rested during all but the advanced stages of cup matches. The salary cap allows club to pay whatever they wish to top players, indeed two players are exempt from the £7m squad limit. Increasing the salary cap just widens the gap between the cl,ubs and tilts advantage and success to the richer ones. If the matches are to be reduced get rid of the playoffs.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Falcons_Thunder (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 20:45
Shock a sarries player wants a bigger squad, I do believe both sarries and bath are both wanting no salary cap. Well how about professional players get paid on a pay per play basis that will give them more time

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
falconsfan07 (IP Logged)
18 September, 2017 21:33
The game knacks you in either way anyway so that's cod wallop

so it doesn't really matter, with the amount of sports recovery/offered after a game these players are more than capable of recovering after 6 days of no games.

Should be greatful that he can play the game and receive the amount of money he does, if certainly do it for that money.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
19 September, 2017 07:10
If they were truly knackered and suffering from too much game time, the coaches would not select them. No coach will select a player who isn't fit to play, not at the top level anyway, so it is a self-limiting condition.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Ol'oneeye (IP Logged)
19 September, 2017 10:45
Christian Day talks too about the demands on players.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
19 September, 2017 11:07
Agreed Monkey, or the extra wear and tear leads to injury which also removes a player from contention and enforces rest.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 16:02
Quote:
falconsfan07
The game knacks you in either way anyway so that's cod wallop
so it doesn't really matter, with the amount of sports recovery/offered after a game these players are more than capable of recovering after 6 days of no games.

Should be greatful that he can play the game and receive the amount of money he does, if certainly do it for that money.

Problem is, you couldn't.

If you read what he has said its quite clear its not about the money. Its about career longevity and not damaging his body to the extent that he's permanently impaired for the rest of his life.

6 days really isn't a long time for recovery in a high impact contact sport.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
falconsfan07 (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 16:30
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
falconsfan07
The game knacks you in either way anyway so that's cod wallop
so it doesn't really matter, with the amount of sports recovery/offered after a game these players are more than capable of recovering after 6 days of no games.

Should be greatful that he can play the game and receive the amount of money he does, if certainly do it for that money.

Problem is, you couldn't.

If you read what he has said its quite c
lear its not about the money. Its about career longevity and not damaging his body to the extent that he's permanently impaired for the rest of his life.

6 days really isn't a long time for recovery in a high impact contact sport.

Oooo hi mate, I know I couldn't I didn't say I could play at that level, I said If I could, so I don't need to be told from a moody sarries fan.

I didn't say it was about the money mate, I said he should be greatful that he can play in a job he loves and get paid what he does and has no right to strike frankly because he is very lucky, if he wants to look after his body he's in the wrong job or needs to stop playing for England. He is treat very well in terms of money and luxury unlike people who have far more important jobs but get treat very wrongly/poorly.

I know that it's about the body, that's what I said! And the game knacks you up either way in the long run, your gunna end up having niggles and knocked up joints"when your older"do you know why, because most people who aren't athletes and are overweight end up needing replacements of some sort, things wear out...like I said before

Yes 6 days is more than enough to recover from a game. Do you know why? Because on Saturdays the players play a game of rugby and then they do it again the week after that for the whole season. Did you know that they do that for a whole season!? It's mad isn't it

I played three games a week at one point, that's with no kryo recovery or therapist. And yes I know that it's at ametur level but still it can be done. Playing once a week/having 6 days without a game is achievable for an athlete.

With all the recovery that goes in, dieting and therapy that goes in these days, these guys are more than capable of performing at this level for 8 months round.

Funny....I never hear David Pocock complain about this stuff? Probably because he is a phenomenal athlete and strikes about far more important matters in the real world!

I should know all this. It's sort of my job..... I'm a PT winking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/09/2017 16:54 by falconsfan07.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 16:53
Quote:
falconsfan07
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
falconsfan07
The game knacks you in either way anyway so that's cod wallop
so it doesn't really matter, with the amount of sports recovery/offered after a game these players are more than capable of recovering after 6 days of no games.

Should be greatful that he can play the game and receive the amount of money he does, if certainly do it for that money.

Problem is, you couldn't.

If you read what he has said its quite c
lear its not about the money. Its about career longevity and not damaging his body to the extent that he's permanently impaired for the rest of his life.

6 days really isn't a long time for recovery in a high impact contact sport.

Oooo hi mate, I know I couldn't I didn't say I could play at that level, I said If I could, so I don't need to be told from a moody sarries fan.

I didn't say it was about the money mate, I said he should be greatful that he can play in a job he loves and get paid what he does and has no right to strike frankly because he is very lucky, if he wants to look after his body he's in the wrong job or needs to stop playing for England. unlike people in in other jobs who get treat very wrongly.

I know that it's about the body, that's what I said! And the game knacks you up either way...like I said before?

Yes 6 days is more than enough to recover from a game. Do you know why? Because on Saturdays the players play and then they do it again the week after that for the whole season. Did you know that they do that for a whole season!? It's mad isn't it

I played three games a week at one point, that's with no kryo recovery or therapist. And yes I know that it's at ametur level but still it can be done.

With all the recovery drinks, dieting and therapy that goes in these days, these guys are more than capable of performing at this level for 8 months round.

Funny....I never hear David Pocock complain about this stuff? Probably because he is a phenomenal athlete and strikes about far more important matters in the real world!

I should know all this. It's sort of my job..... I'm a PT winking smiley

I don't think a boy from a small fishing in Tonga needs to be told to be grateful to be honest...

Its not enough time at all, at elite level playing internationally and against the best teams in Europe puts a huge amount of pressure on the body. He missed the Lions tour due to the amount of rugby he'd played. You could say clubs have to manage it better, absolutely agree with that but you say to a player do you want to sit this one out? The answer will be no 99 times out of 100.

respect your point but 3 games a week might be aerobically demanding but you aren't playing against athletes of their nature so it won't leave the same impact.

Only got to look at Corbisiero to see these guys don't it forever no matter how much they're being paid.

No disrespect but being a PT doesn't make you understand all the fine details of the physical and psychological demands of elite level contact sports and recovery times.

I played at Kingston Park a few months ago against North East RL, I was still feeling the affects 10 days later...

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
falconsfan07 (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 17:17
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
falconsfan07
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
falconsfan07
The game knacks you in either way anyway so that's cod wallop
so it doesn't really matter, with the amount of sports recovery/offered after a game these players are more than capable of recovering after 6 days of no games.

Should be greatful that he can play the game and receive the amount of money he does, if certainly do it for that money.

Problem is, you couldn't.

If you read what he has said its quite c
lear its not about the money. Its about career longevity and not damaging his body to the extent that he's permanently impaired for the rest of his life.

6 days really isn't a long time for recovery in a high impact contact sport.

Oooo hi mate, I know I couldn't I didn't say I could play at that level, I said If I could, so I don't need to be told from a moody sarries fan.

I didn't say it was about the money mate, I said he should be greatful that he can play in a job he loves and get paid what he does and has no right to strike frankly because he is very lucky, if he wants to look after his body he's in the wrong job or needs to stop playing for England. unlike people in in other jobs who get treat very wrongly.

I know that it's about the body, that's what I said! And the game knacks you up either way...like I said before?

Yes 6 days is more than enough to recover from a game. Do you know why? Because on Saturdays the players play and then they do it again the week after that for the whole season. Did you know that they do that for a whole season!? It's mad isn't it

I played three games a week at one point, that's with no kryo recovery or therapist. And yes I know that it's at ametur level but still it can be done.

With all the recovery drinks, dieting and therapy that goes in these days, these guys are more than capable of performing at this level for 8 months round.

Funny....I never hear David Pocock complain about this stuff? Probably because he is a phenomenal athlete and strikes about far more important matters in the real world!

I should know all this. It's sort of my job..... I'm a PT winking smiley

I don't think a boy from a small fishing in Tonga needs to be told to be grateful to be honest...

Its not enough time at all, at elite level playing internationally and against the best teams in Europe puts a huge amount of pressure on the body. He missed the Lions tour due to the amount of rugby he'd played. You could say clubs have to manage it better, absolutely agree with that but you say to a player do you want to sit this one out? The answer will be no 99 times out of 100.

respect your point but 3 games a week might be aerobically demanding but you aren't playing against athletes of their nature so it won't leave the same impact.

Only got to look at Corbisiero to see these guys don't it forever no matter how much they're being paid.

No disrespect but being a PT doesn't make you understand all the fine details of the physical and psychological demands of elite level contact sports and recovery times.

I played at Kingston Park a few months ago against North East RL, I was still feeling the affects 10 days later...

Vunipola wasn't born in Tonga, and was raised in UK and played at one of the best private schools in the UK, he should be grateful that he is doing a job he loves.

I know being a PT and the fact that I played 3 matches in a week doesn't mean much, but I like to think I know how to look after myself, and like to think I kind of know a little bit about sports science and getting the best out of the body. And I know Billy doesn't do that.... an example would be.

After the cc final last season billy, got absolutely @#$%& in edinbrugh. Had to be carried out of a club when he had the prem semi final a week later, alcohol severely dehydrates and slows muscle recovery, he could of had a few beers and called it a night, but he did not look after his body.

Juan Pablo Socino played all but one game and did it last season and he really looks after himself, when I look at Vunipola/corbiserio you can tell...well they clearly like their grub and their bevs, and that is the issue you need to look after your body.

The bit that bothers me, is his fitness, because its always been an issue for him and he should look after himself better if he does not want to get injured guys in the army always get injuries from running, just like he is always going to get niggles at the least playing rugby at the very top.

Just comes across as selfish and a bit me me me...but that just my opinion, well paid pro rugby players threatening to strike when people are in far worse situations is just mad.

Agree re pressure on the body and what these guys go through, but he got injured in a top level game against the best side in England, these things happen. Tough luck for him really. These guys are absolute warriors and are really committed in everything they do so it's just a tough subject really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/09/2017 17:27 by falconsfan07.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 18:49
It all comes down to good player management, and the data & feedback that the coaches have these days is phenomenal. It is not in the interests of either club or country to expose a player to excessive game time. This is discussed in detail between club & international fitness teams, and also between fitness teams |& players. Player welfare has never been better than it is today, and no matter how much he may moan about it, no player is going to be played to the point of deterioration, never mind permanent damage.

Billy V is basically playing the Sarries PR line for abolition of the salary cap. Nobody should fall for it, because he always has the option of not playing if he feels he is not fit and ready to play.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
aidanb (IP Logged)
20 September, 2017 19:51
I would suggest you all listen to the recent rugby pod with jim Hamilton and Andy Goode.

They discuss the modern game, the dramatic improvement in player size and fitness even in the last 5 years. They also talk about he damage being done to the current players and how some of the very recently retired guys are undergoing orthopaedic surgery within 5 years of their career finishing, this surgery being the norm for people well into their 50ís

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Leipziger (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 07:46
A very interesting debate.

Despite the impression we might get when we see players getting 'running repairs' several times during a game, they are not machines, they are human beings. Sports science and recovery may have advanced massively in recent years, but the human body is still pretty much the same thing that has been around for 10,000 years. It is not made to withstand constant battering for 80 minutes, 30 times a year, year-after-year, with no resulting damage.

Back in the early 2000s, my mother worked with the Falcons' then-club doctor, and his opinion was that it takes the body THREE WEEKS to fully recover from an 80-minute rugby game. The key is probably how often it happens. A player can play again after 6 days' recovery, yes, but it's the cumulative impact that's the problem. In September, after a few months off, Vunipola can play a game and then another game a week later, and probably do that for a few weeks, with no loss of performance. But doing it consistently over the course of a season with no rest, will inevitably lead to some kind of drop in standard if he doesn't get sufficient rest time.

It's like saying that a person working an eight-hour day at a desk can do it day-in-day-out for years with no holidays because they get their evenings and nights off - we all know that isn't true. People burn out. If we bring sports science and recovery back into it - a person who works behind a desk for 35-40 hours a week won't magically be able to do 55-60 hour weeks consistently with no loss of performance, just by starting to drink 6 coffees a day.

I don't think money is relevant here either. Earlier this year, I worked 34 out of 35 days, at an average of nearly 9 hours a day, and I'd have worked the 35th one too had I not booked it off to move house. For the first 20-odd days I felt fine, but by 30 days I was hanging. Would it have been any easier had I been earning £200,000 a year? I don't think it would have been. Besides, people say that rugby isn't an important job - no it isn't. Rugby players put their bodies on the line (one bad tackle or dodgy scrum can paralyse a player for life) for nothing more important than our entertainment, so they deserve all the money their employers want to give them, in my opinion.

So we do need bigger squads to give players more rest time. One problem with this is though that clubs still pay their top players a lot of money, so they want as much game time out of them as possible. But England won't be of any help with players like Vunipola. The next problem is that if the salary cap rises by £2m, what happens at Saracens, for example (though it'll happen at all clubs), the likes of Billy V, Farrell, Burger and Itoje will likely go to the management and ask for £100,000 more on their next contract - and why not? They are the ones who fans pay to see, who sponsors pay to be associated with, and who make the difference between Saracens being a very good team and a brilliant team. It's a short and dangerous career too. But it doesn't help build bigger squads.

So I'm not sure what the answer is, but I certainly sympathise with Vunipola and Christian Day's views that players need to be managed better. The numbers retiring early through injury are already too high and I don't see them falling any time soon.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
upwardonward (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 09:36
Excellent post Leipziger.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Squawker2 (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 09:41
For a salary cap increase to really help (aside from associated negatives), you'd really have to attach it to "and if you access this additional funding, squad size must be at least x"

Hopefully with some good writing to avoid just paying 5 guys the minimum and having some free cash to then spend.

I don't think it's even in-season week on week that's the biggest issue. It's number of games played without rest time year-on-year. We frequently see players ending their careers on medical advice these days, and too many DoRs are poor at thinking that far out, so self-interest arguments (on behalf of the coaches) don't hold up.

Would rather not see the season so truncated, though the 11 month initiative must be prevented as a first step. A big break is needed alongside in-season rest. Whether the approach is "fewer games" or "more players" is tricky, both bringing similar and different issues.



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
mannin (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 10:21
Go NFL style with a set amount on the "roster" with the salary cap actually enforced.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 10:54
Quote:
mannin
Go NFL style with a set amount on the "roster" with the salary cap actually enforced.
This x 10

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
aidanb (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 12:20
[www.theguardian.com]


An interesting addition to the arguments here

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
21 September, 2017 15:05
Really good post Leipy.

Personally, I want to see Billy V in a Saracens and England shirt for as long as possible, and I don't want him to retire either early or with a broken body with a life of pain to look forward to. This goes really for any player; for a pittance compared to our football 'stars' they put their bodies through the mincer every game and you just need to hear the contacts to know that their bodies go through huge impacts.

You would hope DORs are sensible however the players need to be sensible too, I would imagine quite a few say 'fine boss' when asked about their fitness knowing they are carrying a knock, same with loads of sportspeople. I bet most would not want to be limited to, say, 10-15 games a season either.

Unfortunately there is no easy answer and this issue will rumble on for quite a bit yet.

 
Re: Vunipola can't hack it at the top
pa8 (IP Logged)
24 September, 2017 07:20
Looks like Billy's picked up another bad injury the way Mark McCall is talking.


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