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Last result: Newcastle Falcons 35-30 Sale Sharks


Ringfencing
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 15:36
Only a matter of time......?

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 16:03
Hopefully. V good piece by Owen slot in Times.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Leipziger (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 21:09
Ah, can't beat a good ringfencing article! The argument for ringfencing does seem to get stronger, and it is becoming harder to argue against. But since I've always been against stopping relegation, I'll give it a go.


The following from Owen Slot aren't good arguments, in my view:
"security at the foot of the Premiership would allow those clubs to take some risks with their up-and-coming players. As it is, their priority is survival, so they prioritise survival rugby and they recruit tried-and-tested old hands from abroad in order to play it."

Mark Wilson, Will Welch, Micky Young, Kieron Brookes, Toby Flood, George McGuigan, Mathew Tait, Alex Tait... all young English players who came through the Falcons' ranks when relegation was a threat, and no doubt there were others. We signed Dom Barrow we were about to be promoted the Championship and probably anticipating a relegation battle the following year.
On the other hand, after our first season in years without a relegation battle, we signed Mermoz, Matavesi, Mavinga, van der Merwe, and of course Flood who is unlikely to ever play for England again.


"if the fence does go up, and I suspect it is probably more a case of when, it will not be hermetically sealed. There will be doors that open, occasionally, in and out."

Presumably this means election and licensing. How often will a group of self-interested owners and the powers that be allow clubs to swap round? I looked at the criteria Super League used when they had periodic licensing: stadium facilities, finance and business performance, commercial and marketing and playing strength, including junior production and development. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I went to KP on Friday to watch the game. I didn't go to look closely the stadium facilities, or read the Falcons' financial records or commercial and marketing plans.

It's not too far to imagine that, pretty quickly, those making the decision might decide that Sale is far enough north for the Premiership, and that a club miles away in the North East with attendances of 7,000 should be relegated in favour of a team from Cornwall who might attract 15,000 fans every week.


"Yes, doing an Exeter is the romantic dream, the reality is that no one is in a position to do an Exeter"

Undoubtedly. But in 2002, when Rotherham were denied promotion, nobody seemed to be in a position to come up either. Exeter were way below the radar, and even Worcester were a couple of years away from coming up. This argument is like saying: "There's nobody in our academy now who's likely to play for England, we might as well close it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 21:12 by Leipziger.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 07:14
In 2002 the game was still not fully adjusted to the professional era. There were still about 20 clubs jostling for the 12 available places. Fifteen years down the line there are thirteen clubs who can realistically fill twelve places, and no sign of any other club being capable of sustaining a Premiership quality squad. There are a few who still dream, but being realistic, there are no other clubs who can operate at that financial level.

I am a great believer in relegation & promotion, but have to admit that in 2017 it no longer makes sense for Premiership rugby.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 07:36
Would it not put off potential investors? Been rumours about a few clubs getting further investment.

Shame it's got to this point though, could go other way and have 10 team top flight and chamionship with more interest and genuine competition each season for promotion.

Euro competition could maybe then be expanded a bit and domestic cup taken more seriously.

 
Re: Ringfencing
pa8 (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 07:39
Just reading in the Guardian that one of the subjects on the agenda is the reduction of the Premiership to 10 clubs in order to keep the players happy.

Would do a linky thing but Iím not tech savvy.

 
Re: Ringfencing
shendy (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 07:45
Quote:
pa8
Just reading in the Guardian that one of the subjects on the agenda is the reduction of the Premiership to 10 clubs in order to keep the players happy.
Would do a linky thing but Iím not tech savvy.

It's not exactly difficult - copy the URL from the browser, paste it into here...

 
Re: Ringfencing
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 08:59
Crack on then Shendy

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 09:00
Quote:
shendy

It's not exactly difficult - copy the URL from the browser, paste it into here...

Perhaps a more polite gesture would have been to post the link.

Here you go:

Guardian.

 
Re: Ringfencing
aidanb (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 13:59
Quote:
pa8
Just reading in the Guardian that one of the subjects on the agenda is the reduction of the Premiership to 10 clubs in order to keep the players happy.
Would do a linky thing but Iím not tech savvy.

just to help out

as Shendy says you copy the web page from your browser

then in your post you click on the icon above the typing box which looks like a globe with a chain link on it

a box opens and you past your wage page address in there [over the top of the http:// that is already typed in there
click ok
then you give your link a name e.g. shendy was nearly helpful

click okay to that and your maternal parent had a sibling called Bob

Shendy was nearly helpful

 
Re: Ringfencing
pa8 (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 18:28
Cheers chaps Iíll give that a go next time. But I wouldnít hold your breath that I get it to work.

 
Re: Ringfencing
aidanb (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 20:41
Quote:
pa8
Cheers chaps Iíll give that a go next time. But I wouldnít hold your breath that I get it to work.

Good news

 
Re: Ringfencing
shendy (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 07:44
Quote:
aidanb
Quote:
pa8
Just reading in the Guardian that one of the subjects on the agenda is the reduction of the Premiership to 10 clubs in order to keep the players happy.
Would do a linky thing but Iím not tech savvy.

just to help out

as Shendy says you copy the web page from your browser

then in your post you click on the icon above the typing box which looks like a globe with a chain link on it

a box opens and you past your wage page address in there [over the top of the http:// that is already typed in there
click ok
then you give your link a name e.g. shendy was nearly helpful

click okay to that and your maternal parent had a sibling called Bob

Shendy was nearly helpful

You don't even have to do that - just copy & paste the URL
[www.theguardian.com]

 
Re: Ringfencing
shendy (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 07:48
Quote:
Monkey1
Quote:
shendy

It's not exactly difficult - copy the URL from the browser, paste it into here...

Perhaps a more polite gesture would have been to post the link.

Here you go:

Guardian.

I don't know, I try and help a bit and I get criticised!
It's a bit of a bugbear of mine on the forums here when people say "I can't do links, I'm not technical". It's not technical, it's dead simple.

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 08:36
Quote:
steve1888
Would it not put off potential investors? Been rumours about a few clubs getting further investment.
Shame it's got to this point though, could go other way and have 10 team top flight and chamionship with more interest and genuine competition each season for promotion.

Euro competition could maybe then be expanded a bit and domestic cup taken more seriously.

I think I might accept this. Two fully pro divisions with equitable funding and a play-off to settle promotion and relegation. Let the rest of the amateur, semi-pro clubs get on with their own thing. It has worked in soccer for decades.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Leipziger (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 10:16
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
steve1888
Would it not put off potential investors? Been rumours about a few clubs getting further investment.
Shame it's got to this point though, could go other way and have 10 team top flight and chamionship with more interest and genuine competition each season for promotion.

Euro competition could maybe then be expanded a bit and domestic cup taken more seriously.

I think I might accept this. Two fully pro divisions with equitable funding and a play-off to settle promotion and relegation. Let the rest of the amateur, semi-pro clubs get on with their own thing. It has worked in soccer for decades.

Does it even happen in soccer? In theory a club could rise from the very bottom of the pyramid in football to the top, there is no full separation until you get down to about the 10th level. 700-odd clubs compete in the FA Cup, all part of a pyramid where a team could rise from the 10th level through to the Premier League and Newcastle United could do the reverse journey. Yeah that's not likely to happen, but in theory it could.

The election system between the Football League and non-league was abandoned in favour of one-up one-down 30 years ago, and it's since been expanded to two-up two-down.

 
Re: Ringfencing
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 14:01
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
steve1888
Would it not put off potential investors? Been rumours about a few clubs getting further investment.
Shame it's got to this point though, could go other way and have 10 team top flight and chamionship with more interest and genuine competition each season for promotion.

Euro competition could maybe then be expanded a bit and domestic cup taken more seriously.

I think I might accept this. Two fully pro divisions with equitable funding and a play-off to settle promotion and relegation. Let the rest of the amateur, semi-pro clubs get on with their own thing. It has worked in soccer for decades.

Does it even happen in soccer? In theory a club could rise from the very bottom of the pyramid in football to the top, there is no full separation until you get down to about the 10th level. 700-odd clubs compete in the FA Cup, all part of a pyramid where a team could rise from the 10th level through to the Premier League and Newcastle United could do the reverse journey. Yeah that's not likely to happen, but in theory it could.

The election system between the Football League and non-league was abandoned in favour of one-up one-down 30 years ago, and it's since been expanded to two-up two-down.

Pretty sure Wimbledon FC went from effectively soccer's Div 5 (Southern League) to Div 1 (at the time there was no Premiership, so that was top).

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 15:53
Soccer is a very mature professional sport. But I wonder how things were a couple of decades after the creation of the professional game. Don't search for answers. Just thinking aloud.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Mobbs (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 19:22
Fine, ring fence the Prem and add Bristol and Cornish Pirates to make up fourteen clubs....oh, and bin the end of season play-offs whilst replacing the Anglo-Welsh with an English knock-out Cup of thirty two clubs with Prem clubs seeded to play away in first round.

 
Re: Ringfencing
GeordieFalcon (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 20:25
Why Bristol and Cornish Pirates?

Surely Leeds (Yorkshire, whatever they're called these days) would have a big argument.
They are a huge feeder for premiership clubs...and if they were able to hang on to their players (due to ringfencing and staying in the prem) would surely be a VERY strong side.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 21:09
Not sure a league of 10 is ideal. Firstly because I am certain that it wouldn't include us for one reason or another. Secondly I don't believe it will make the Championship competitive. I suspect it will strand the top level eligible clubs in the second tier and long tern the lack of funding which results will see two go to the wall unless the have billionaire owners.

Just look at the clubs which have risen sustainably in the last decade - Exeter and Bristol. Bristol have a billionaire and Exeter a significantly wealthy backer too. Leeds haven't had this and are arguably more adrift now than they were a decade ago.

My belief is the pool of professional top level clubs is actually in contraction and ring fencing will stop or at least stay this issue.

The RFU are supposed to be the guardians of the game in England but they are on danger of reducing the regular top level rugby across the country. They need to turn the tide.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 07:11
Bear in mind that Worcester look likely to go bust unless somebody appears out of nowhere with a huge wad of cash. We could have 12 clubs chasing 12 places, and it doesn't take a genius to see how the RFU would tidy up the league in that situation.

As for reducing the prem to 10 clubs, it just won't work, but I can see the Anglo Welsh being scrapped to give players proper breaks during the season, as mooted by Tim Payne on Monday night.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Mobbs (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 08:43
Geordie

A little tonque in cheek but a trip to Cornwall just sounds so much more attractive than an away game in Leeds !

As for Bristol, well, they are heavily backed by one of the richest men in Britain and as such will buy their way back and ensure they have the players to stay next time.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 10:18
This is quite a tricky one and there are no right answers. The problem is basically there are too few fans who want to watch club rugby and too many professional players than the structure can self sufficiently accommodate. Thereís arenít that many philanthropists kicking about and even less who would want to plough money into a club with a fan base hovering around 1 - 2,000 which really means there are only about 14 viable clubs at the moment.

Ringfencing to me is a rubbish idea as I think you need to breed a competitiveness in players, with no relegation far too many teams have nothing to play for. Having said that maybe it is the only way forward. As much as I love the Pirates and a few others down there could they really exist in the top division?

The ultimate problem as I have said before is there are too many glory hunting rugby fans who are only interested in international games, if only some of them were interested in their local club. Thatís probably the case throughout the UK and rugby world as a whole.

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 11:57
My final contribution on this. For the time being.

Expand Prem to 14 in two Conferences. The North and Midlands for one and London and the South for the other. Everybody will play everybody regardless of the Conference they are in giving 26 games. League points will determine position in respective Conference.
At the end of the season, a game between Conference leaders will decide Premiership title.

Money currently used as parachute paymention will continue to go to Championship as a prize for highest achievers allowing them to build squads and facilities and make the Championship more competitive.

Every other year, the top Championship side will play bottom Premiership side to decide promotion and relegation.

Not perfect, but something to ponder.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 15:25
That play off would give the same issue that caused them to be scrapped.

For me two top leagues of 10 with a competitive cup competition,two team promotion & relegation would work, smaller league means could break for some internationals and have Cup on others. Championshop or prem2 would have more appeal to TV and sponsors with more attractive fixtures. If you took bottom 2 now that would put Worcester, Irish, Bristol, Leeds along with Bedford, Jersey, Ealing, Nottingham, Donny and Richmond maybe then would be competitve league and season after you'd have maybe Quins and Sale so added interest.

For me with Crowds already not great more meaningless games won't help.

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 16:14
You win Steve. Your idea is better than mine. I havr doubts about some of the weaker Championship sides ability to compete in a Prem 2.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 16:35
That's the hope for added interest and coverage maybe bringing in more investment hopefully consortiums not just individuals even Morden Park could be a possibility although I'd worry whether that would help or hinder our progress.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 16:56
Yorkshire Carnegie who are a long established club are not sustainable in the top flight therefore I just can't see DMP being so.
Some of these clubs genuinely have the ambition to reach the Premiership but I just don't believe that there are the investors out there for these clubs.
Coupled with gates of 1000/2000 they don't have the fan base to make it work commercially.
We have seen just how difficult it has been for us over recent years.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 17:12
You are in cuckoo land if you think there is the finance available for 2 league's of 10. Also the media will have as little interest as before. The Chronicle don't even cover Falcons now in the top flight - why would anyone do so if they are almost permanently in the second? Look at the gates - what size gates would we then get.... you can criticise glory supporters as much as you want but sadly it is to some extent human nature. How long would our backer continue with championship size gates?

Bin off the cup except for development and under played squad players to compete with clubs across the country, increase the AP to 14, no relegation, 4 more league games. With the breaks for cups the season would be extended but top players not playing any more than before, significantly more interesting cup and a league that can go somewhere.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 17:39
Hopefully one channel cover one and one channel cover the other with more meaningful games in them.

Mowden are different to Leeds IMO as Leeds lose casual supporters to Rhino's but with backing Mowden could do okay and have the ground and have shown rugby events there can get good crowds.

Need something for teams to give other players a chance better than the a league too.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 18:16
DMP have the ground and it's in a very accessible location. The question is though...would they find an investor who is prepared to lose such a substantial amount of money Year on Year?

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 18:43
I still can't see how two top flight teams dropping down makes the Championship more interesting or financially sound. Even if you take their cut of top flight revenue it seems strange. All the reasons why relegation is bad for top flight clubs sustainability won't just apply to one club each year, there will then be a struggle for the team in 10th place in the top flight and first in the second. The teams which did compete at the top, now in second and third would be buried.

I can't comment on the prospects of DMP but good luck to them.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 19:09
While the two x 10 team divisions would make the second tier much more interesting in that there would be 3 Ďbigí clubs going after 2 promotion spots each year there has to be doubts about crowds for these teams in the second tier. Our fan base as well as a few others is fragile at best, if a team misses promotion then thereís potentially even more of a fan drop off.

There is an argument that the current set up is the best as there is still hope for any club who suddenly has a cash influx to make a go of promotion, however you can also argue what is the point of lobbing a club into the 2nd tier to simply dominate and come straight back up after a season.

As I said, a really difficult one with no straightforward solution, ireesepective of sugar daddies, what we really need is an influx of new supporters for a lot of clubs. It doesnít do anyone any good having someone like London Welsh playing in the top flight with pathetic crowds.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Northumbrian (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 21:38
Can't they just copy the county cricket model, which is 18 professional clubs in two divisions, or something similar?

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 23:26
I'm not sure county cricket is at all sustainable. I suspect that it only survives by virtue of cash from the ECB, which at least can't be said of Rugby. Though no doubt the RFUs cash comes in handy.

No cricket is a poor example because they are trying to come up with ideas because it doesn't work - first it was 20/20, now it's city franchise 20/20. I wouldn't be surprised if the county structure has disappeared from the face of the game within 30 years.

I love cricket but there is no doubt that in England it is a declining sport.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 00:04
Be realistic, instead of dreaming about romantically idealised bu!!@#$%&. If all the telly money goes to 10 clubs, and the rest are left to rot in the unviable cess pit that is the Championship, you have just ten major clubs playing fewer meaningful games, with some cup bo!!ocks as filler in an otherwise less appetising sandwich.

Will the paying public back that offering with their own cash?

Nope!

Make the Premiership, you know, that bit of the rugby calendar that people actually give two hoots about, more interesting, not less.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 06:51
Bit OTT because you don't agree and maybe had a beer. The telly money would be 20 clubs with a 2 tier top flight.

Increasing teams and having no relegation means less meaningful game, never seen as many empty seats at saints either so currently interest is dipping although hopefully increase as World Cup draws nearer.

The championship would have more recognised teams in.You need the cup for developing a players currently as the a league doesn't offer much.

The premiership would be more interesting with no teams cut adrift with two up to down and hopefully more games with meaning. Same for championship one up automatically then play offs for second spot.

If you're at the bottom end of a bigger league with no relegation half your games could end up pretty meaningless and so players then lose some of their competitive edge? Teams in relegation battles have exciting games that people turn out to at the end of a season whereas teams cud adrift with nothing to play for wouldn't.
With less games you should see less resting of players so the casual supporters stay away less because always strongest teams.

A lot is said of super rugby but theyve cut teams and the gap between NH and SH rugby appears to be vanishing.

To me it seems the romantic bullshit is this amazing 14 team all conquering super league that people think is the answer to everything but he only benefit being your team won't get relegated.

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 07:02
I do also think we shouldn't have top flight fixtures when international games are on.

 
Re: Ringfencing
dick g (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 09:01
Quote:
steve1888
I do also think we shouldn't have top flight fixtures when international games are on.

I quite like it during 6 Nations when clubs we play have players missing. We need every advantage we can get.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Robs (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 10:55
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
steve1888
I do also think we shouldn't have top flight fixtures when international games are on.

I quite like it during 6 Nations when clubs we play have players missing. We need every advantage we can get.

Isn't that one of the main reasons,if not THE reason , why there are playoffs at the top of the Prem?

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 11:55
It is indeed but also why some stay away or don't buy season tickets because they don't see star players in a fair few games and that's not just our club It's across the board and will put off the casual supporter and corporates.

Dick, agree its an advantage but alot would rather see the games top players.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
02 December, 2017 14:09
You won't see the game's top players outside the top 8 teams on the 10 team league basis. And even then the players from the lower sides will still gravitate to the top ones. That is natural - look how many top players left Leeds/Yorkshire once they were down. Look how many have left Durham in the cricket.

Nope 10 teams will.concentrate the better players in the top league in less clubs and the money will be spread between the 8 clubs that retain the status.

I agree about the cup.

The French have 14 in their league and their clubs don't seem to be struggling as much. Though they do retain relegation.

Super Rugby only cut back to 15 teams so they could play in a proper league structure rather than the pool thing which was felt as being unappealing to fans and sponsors alike - not because it's failing otherwise. It is interesting to note that they felt 15 was a good number and the French, 14. The Celts have 14 now too, so it appears the general consensus is a bigger top league is better among other nations anyway. It has certainly broght more fonance to the Celtic league.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
03 December, 2017 13:13
I popped down to Doncaster yesterday to see them take on the mighty Bristol. What a cracking ground, and the pie was every bit as good as I had been told.

Doncaster looked like a team that wanted to win. Bristol looked like a team that didn't want to be there. Bristol won of course, if you shove that number of decent players into any team against opposition who don't have that many players trained to the same level, the result will only ever go one way. Bristol however, despite the almost assured win, are kidding themselves if they think they can waltz into the Prem & stay up. Even on a bad day, I would have put money on us to run 50 unopposed points against the team that I watched yesterday. The gulf in standards is absolutely massive, and Pat Lam has one hell of a task ahead to turn that lifeless looking collection of players into anything that resembles a Premiership team.

If I had the option at throwing money at one of the two teams on show at Castle Park yesterday to turn them into a Premiership team, my money would have been on Doncaster. They had all the attributes that you would be looking for in terms of team belief, club culture, something already decent to work with. Bristol just had a collection of good players with no hint of team spirit whatsoever. The Donny captain was superb, egging the team on from start to finish, keeping the machine working. You couldn't even tell who the Bristol captain was.

My point I suppose is that the difference between the two leagues has become so great that any form of promotion & relegation, be it two up, three down, any combination you like, it just isn't going to work.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
03 December, 2017 17:45
An attendance of 1429 at Yorkshire Carnegie v Rotherham this afternoon. Further confirmation to me that Carnegie just could not be sustainable in the Premiership!
Although it pains me to say that living in Yorkshire I'm afraid it's the harsh reality!

 
Re: Ringfencing
Getitright (IP Logged)
03 December, 2017 20:28
So look whatís happened to the team Pat Lam left. Do not undersestimete the man or the finances now behind him

 
Re: Ringfencing
steve1888 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 08:31
Chamionship season looks done already

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 11:15
Quote:
Wensleydale Falcon
An attendance of 1429 at Yorkshire Carnegie v Rotherham this afternoon. Further confirmation to me that Carnegie just could not be sustainable in the Premiership!
Although it pains me to say that living in Yorkshire I'm afraid it's the harsh reality!

Sadly backs up the thought that at least attendance wise there are only 13 clubs with anything like a decent fan base.

Itís a real shame that a club that has an academy that produces so many good players canít attract more matchday supporters.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 12:05
Iím not sure that your comments are entirely fair Monkey1. After all, the team you praise lost 18 Ė 38 to a below par visiting Bristol side. To state that the gulf between leagues is so vast on the basis of one game seem rather hasty. And how you can discern the state of team spirit from just one game is quite surprising. As for not identifying the captain, well he did go off injured so was quite hard to spot. So I forgive you that.

The last Newcastle game I saw was a 7 Ė 29 defeat to Gloucester on the basis of which I might have concluded that Falcons wouldnít be able to score against the top four Championship sides! That wouldnít be fair either. Last season one side put 50 points on us in the league and that was Leicester at Welford Road when they were going through a bit of a purple patch and we put in a very very poor performance. No one else managed that against a side that had been promoted after the best part of a decade out of the top flight and with a defence coach in his first season. This time around the absence of play-offs should make recruitment and planning easier for whichever side gets promoted and, if itís Bristol, with significantly loosened purse strings in comparison to last time. I donít think anyone involved with Bristol thinks weíll be anything other than relegation fodder but I do think weíll be significantly better prepared and with a generally higher calibre of player.

The specific issues around the structure of professional league rugby arenít particularly related to the strengths and weaknesses of particular clubs but more to do with the fact that professionalism is still relatively recent in rugby union and the pool of clubs able to sustain a fully professional structure is relatively small. Not to mention that club rugby as a spectator sport is a distinctly minority one which has all sorts of implications for developing the game in terms of revenue and public profile. Writing off the second tier, which has produced numerous players who are currently in the Premiership and have played at international level seems harsh.

And Exiled Falcon, looking at attendances as a criterion for membership of the top tier given that last season Worcester, Sale, Exeter and, yes, Newcastle were all lower than Bristol seems a dangerous idea if the Premiership was reduced to 10!

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 12:51
Hi Gray_L, you slightly misunderstand in that Iím not saying attendances are a criterion what I am saying is only 13 clubs have what could even tenuously be said as decent levels of home support.

A few of those (including us) have a rather fragile support base which would be seriously tested in the second division. Iíve long bemoaned the rather rubbish support club sides (other than Tigs and one or two others) have compared to the interest generated by National side).

In response to your first bit, tbf Iíd be quite happy to have a 38-18 away win and be rubbish doing it!

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 13:56
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
In response to your first bit, tbf Iíd be quite happy to have a 38-18 away win and be rubbish doing it!

I can assure you that Bris were rubbish (not in an insulting way, but I mean well short of what they will be capable of by the end of the season) and they still won comfortably, which is why I thought it illustrated the gulf between Championship clubs & Premiership clubs rather well. By the end of this season I expect Pat lam to have a properly sorted team put together from their current squad, which won't have first halves such as we saw on Saturday, and will be a totally different animal.

If you want to test if promotion & relegation actually works, imagine being a year ahead in time. Bristol are in the Prem, Wuss have gone bust (I am not saying it will happen, but just use imagination for a moment, it could be any team), London Irish remain in the Prem. If any of the 12 teams gets relegated at the end of that season, who the heckers will be able to come up without doing a London Welsh & embarking on the first steps to oblivion?

I think you will find the answer to be nobody, in which case you can't honestly say that promotion & relegation still works.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't even know what the cause is, except perhaps the RFU have allowed too much money & talent to pour into the top league without enough thought as to the function of the second league?

However we have got here, and no matter what the rights & wrongs, the difference between the two leagues has got too far out of kilter.

If anyone has an answer to make it work again, answers on a postcard please to RFU, big concrete thingy, Twickenham, somewhere down south.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
04 December, 2017 15:30
Exactly Monkey, there is no right answer. To me relegation stops clubs and players coasting along on Easy Street, however promotion and relegation at the moment just doesnít work. Two leagues of 10 is going to seriously test supporter loyalty and is it really the answer?

Like it or not no one wants to watch Championship rugby, the attendances are woeful, this in turn doesnít exactly help attract financial input. Not really sure what the RFU could do tbh, plus you can watch the highlights of non league football on tv but you can only see tries from the rugby Championship on the RFU website, in other words, the media couldnít give a flying one about lower league rugby.

So far no genius ideas being touted from anywhere so weíll just rumble on as it is Iím afraid.

 
Re: Ringfencing
limpopo (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 13:49
Spot on Monkey!

 
Re: Ringfencing
leemingtyke (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 21:16
Quote:
Wensleydale Falcon
An attendance of 1429 at Yorkshire Carnegie v Rotherham this afternoon. Further confirmation to me that Carnegie just could not be sustainable in the Premiership!
Although it pains me to say that living in Yorkshire I'm afraid it's the harsh reality!

Always surprises me how many people point to attendances as an indicator of sustainability mate. Unless you're getting 20 odd thousand I don't think they have very much to do with it.

Think you're right that YC aren't sustainable but it's because we haven't got a wealthy backer and have virtually no chance of attracting one, not because our attendances are poor.

The harsh reality is that it's the backers money that makes the majority of Premiership clubs sustainable, not their attendances.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 22:11
Attendances are just one of many indicators in my view, albeit one of the main ones. Any club has to have a core fan base in which to work with to drive their income. We know that as a club we have about 4500 but due to some incredible work by the marketing team and improved results over the last couple of years our average for home games is pushing upwards to 8k.
I can't or don't disagree Leeming that a wealthy owner is required but as we know by our experience these owners will still take an overview of the club as a business and strive for self sufficiency.
In regards to YC and getting 1400 fans on a Sunday afternoon for a local derby it's understandable as to why the club are unable to attract any new investment.
Not a criticism.....just the reality!!

 
Re: Ringfencing
leemingtyke (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 22:45
Yeah, i didn't take it as a criticism and i agree that a strong fan base is a persuasive contributary factor to a potential investor.

The reason we can't, and won't, attract a backer isn't because of our poor attendances though. I think if Carnegie were in the Premiership our attendances would go up. We averaged over 5 and a half thousand last time we were there. But that wouldnt make us sustainable.

The reason we can't get an investor is because, with no assets, there's nothing to invest in.

Imho :-)

 
Re: Ringfencing
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
07 December, 2017 18:30
To be honest Leeming, you could have the ground, facilities, AP status and gate and there is still no guarantee of being sustainable and attracting a wealthy investor.

Look at Worcester. They tick all those boxes and yet there seems to be very limited interest in their sale.

At the end of the day it comes down to a very wealthy fan having a flutter and you only need one of those to be there.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
07 December, 2017 19:25
I am astonished that nobody has come forward to help carry the load at Sixways, and remember that London Irish are in a similar boat. Both have done the right thing, gone public asking for someone to share the backing of the clubs that they are passionate about, rather than aiming to sell outright, but unless something is happening on the quiet, nobody from their supporter bases has come forward. It does seem to be luck of the draw if a club gets the right backers or not, a business model that must cause a few sleepless nights at Twickenham.

If Leeds were to get the right person, willing and able to pour in enough cash, as Bristol have, and as Saracens did many years ago, I have no doubt that within a few years they would be competing in the Premiership with the supporter base growing with the prospect of seeing winning rugby. That seems to be the way it works these days. I doubt that this is what the RFU & PRL envisaged in the early days of professionalism, but here we are.

 
Re: Ringfencing
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
08 December, 2017 09:25
The unpalatable truth really is that rugby is basically unsustainable without the input of a friendly benefactor. The only team in England that could probably self sustain are Tigers who do get good crowds, although possibly Northampton and Quins too with a little luck and a following wind.

I guess you could argue that professionalism and rugby union are simply mutually exclusive and it isnít helped by clubs having to have large squads with players on, quite rightly, decent salaries.

Cricket has been mentioned above but cricket clubs donít have the same staffing levels and their salaries arenít as much as a premiership rugby player, hence loads of them winter in Australasia or are employed on the ground staff.

As said before, there is simply no straightforward answer unfortunately.


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