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Next two matches

Friday 21 September v Exeter Chiefs at Kingston Park, 7.45pm

Friday 28 September v Wasps at Kingston Park, 7.45pm

Last result: Worcester Warriors 20-23 Newcastle Falcons


Tricky Nicky
dick g (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 08:27
Think this needs its own thread as it throws up important issue. What happened? Nicky caught a failed dropgoal with his back to Sir, tapped the ball on toe and hared off to score.

As far as ref could see, Nicky had grounded the ball. Quite rightly, he blew for 22.

Only our captain is allowed to appeal a decision to ref. But did he know what Tricky had done? Tricky was at the other end of the pitch after the ref had blown and couldn't have reached Welch in time to explain. And Sir had already made his decision.

This raises the issue of whether it is permissable deliberately to fool the ref. This is not the same as fooling the other side, ie with a dummy, which the ref can see.

Perhaps we need a new Law stipulating that when the ref is unable to see for sure that the ball has been grounded, he must refer to TMO.

In the meantime, I think yesterday's Sir took the correct decision.

Tough luck Tricky.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 08:36
My impression was that he fooled the Sarries players who then appealed to the ref - they'd all (ref included) made the assumption he'd touched it down and the old saying about assumption came into play. I thought the ref was shocking all game to be honest. He's not why we lost but I thought his overall performance was woeful

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
nursepete (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 10:28
He made an assumption, which proved to be wrong.
First rule in life (never mind refereeing) is assume nothing.
That decision didn't cost us the game, just momentum at that point. Personally, I though it was excellent play from Niki Goneva, just a shame it was so good it fooled the ref too!

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
telfs123 (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 11:16
The main problem is how the ref responded to it. He called Welch over and said he wasn’t allowing it as it was a “values of game” offence. That implies he knew exactly what happened.
In reality, he probably wasn’t paying attention, didn’t think fast enough, and got embarrassed.

It does frustrate me though. He didn’t actually call 22 until Goneva was around 10m/half way. Surely something in his brain clicked “This is an international rugby player, who is currently sprinting up the pitch. Something different has happened, and he should have shouted “play on”. Then gone to TMO, if he was wrong everyone could laugh about it, if he was right, then he’d be praised for having his wits about him.

It wasn’t his worst incident of the match (that goes to the non-red card or the blatant knock on before the last try) -it was a unique situation. I just reckon someone like Barnes would have been able to think on his feet and let things play out.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
eebagum (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 11:19
Sorry DG but I believe you are totally wrong....look around the pitch yesterday and how many times did players try to fool the ref...and get away with it?
Itoje propped himself up over 2/3 players while trying to get a turn over -and this was shortly before a Sarries try- we should have had a penalty, and a points difference of 10!
How many times was the Sarries defensive line up too early, offside, but not penalised?
...and I m not suggesting it was always Sarries who offended.
How many times has Deano critised our team for not ' reading the ref'.It is all part and parcel of the game.I remember 55years ago taking line out balls, making a dummy pass to the scrum half and winning a penalty.Yes DG it's been going on that long!
Tempest got it wrong, and a pity he did not have the b***s to admit it afterwards...but then he may have appeared foolish making a school boy error.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
GeordieFalcon (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 11:35
Yeah I heard that the ref said "its not in the values / spirit of the game"

IF that's true, then its ironic he said that for a try scored against Saracens!

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
dick g (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 12:14
Quote:
eebagum
Sorry DG but I believe you are totally wrong....look around the pitch yesterday and how many times did players try to fool the ref...and get away with it?
Itoje propped himself up over 2/3 players while trying to get a turn over -and this was shortly before a Sarries try- we should have had a penalty, and a points difference of 10!
How many times was the Sarries defensive line up too early, offside, but not penalised?
...and I m not suggesting it was always Sarries who offended.
How many times has Deano critised our team for not ' reading the ref'.It is all part and parcel of the game.I remember 55years ago taking line out balls, making a dummy pass to the scrum half and winning a penalty.Yes DG it's been going on that long!
Tempest got it wrong, and a pity he did not have the b***s to admit it afterwards...but then he may have appeared foolish making a school boy error.

I am prepared to change my view on the incident, but I do feel that such things need a bit if clarification. I recall 55 years ago scrum halves were allowed to dummy a pass from the scrum. This was eventually outlawed. And I think there is a difference between players trying to fool the ref in clear sight and deliberately doing something behind his back. It is a fine distinction and makes for an interesting debate. But top ma rksto Nicky for ingenuity.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 12:15
A thought I've had, say a Saraces player had noticed the "non touchdown" and had run up and smashed Goneva (hard to do I must admit) before he got to the 22..
Would Goneva say what he had done? Hmmm
Would Tempest go to the TMO? ...doubt it as he thought it had been touched down.
Would the crowd applauded a good tackle?

It was a very clever move, it fooled Sarries and Tempest so perhaps too clever?
If he had warned Tempest before the game it might happen perhaps a different result.

As for calling it ...not in the values/spirit... rubbish.
Better he had said I called 22 as I assumed you put it down.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2018 12:16 by 1876-Fez.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Dave Berko (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 12:20
To be fair he whistled for the 22 drop out. Sarries players positioned themselves accordingly. Whilst Goneva (IMHO) didn't break the laws his action very successfully fooled probably everybody in the ground and those watching on TV. Maybe he should have told the ref he hadn't touched down. Interestingly none of the other Falcons seemed to go with him so possibly they all thought he had touched down!! Very very clever by Goneva - too clever? As Sarries fan l don't think he 'cheated'. He merely fooled too many!!!
Best wishes for rest of season. You guys were so unfortunate to come away with nil points

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 12:23
Quote:
1876-Fez
As for calling it ...not in the values/spirit... rubbish.
Better he had said I called 22 as I assumed you put it down.

I would agree with that.

Good effort by Goneva, in the end it didn't work out, and it was an unusual situation that the ref couldn't make an instant decision on & get it right with the benefit of hindsight. Let he who has never got a decision wrong when put on the spot & faced with something off the cuff be the first to criticise the ref for this one.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 13:10
Tempest got the call wrong but I probably think that's fair enough as it was a pretty unusual situation. Having blown his whistle (once Goneva was off running up the pitch) the 'try' could never stand.

BUT to claim it was a 'values' offence is complete and utter tosh.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
03 September, 2018 21:37
Saint in peace...

I think the ref was wrong, but we all know refs make mistakes.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
A tramp abroad (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 06:50
Quote:
London_Falcon
Tempest got the call wrong but I probably think that's fair enough as it was a pretty unusual situation. Having blown his whistle (once Goneva was off running up the pitch) the 'try' could never stand.
BUT to claim it was a 'values' offence is complete and utter tosh.

Agreed, far better that he simply acknowledged his mistake rather than try to justify his decision.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Rafpilot2000 (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 08:01
It does make me smile given some of the tackles and incidents that are overlooked in matches, some of which cause serious injury that this incident questions ‘values’ . Tempest had a shocker (take nothing away from Saracens who were awesome), so why not test him in a cheeky way. And funny old thing he got that wrong.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Leipziger (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 08:12
"It does make me smile given some of the tackles and incidents that are overlooked in matches, some of which cause serious injury that this incident questions ‘values’ ."

Quite. And was it any more against the game values than Farrell rushing a conversion to prevent a TMO check?

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Rafpilot2000 (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 11:13
That is also a very good point. I’m sure if we had won the game we would not be lamenting these decisions, but it did act to prove a point to the referee which was probably why he ran the length of the pitch and put the ball down for a try before returning back. Players actively try to deceive the in most competitive matches, it’s part of the sport and part of the reason for assistant referees and TMO. Was it cheeky yes, did the ref realise, I doubt it, should it have been a try? Was it against the values of the game........no.
That said when the referee is having a howler and may as well have been wearing a Fez, it could be seen as not sympathetic to his day

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
DeceptivePace (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 13:59
We can't point the finger at OF for a hurried conversion. Toby did exactly the same against Chiefs last year when Sinoti scored in the North west corner. End justified the means for me as the quality of Sinoti's footwork deserved the score.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
CharlieDog (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 14:15
Quote:
DeceptivePace
We can't point the finger at OF for a hurried conversion. Toby did exactly the same against Chiefs last year when Sinoti scored in the North west corner. End justified the means for me as the quality of Sinoti's footwork deserved the score.

Don't think anyone is pointing the finger, just asking what's different

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
Leipziger (IP Logged)
04 September, 2018 16:03
Quote:
CharlieDog
Quote:
DeceptivePace
We can't point the finger at OF for a hurried conversion. Toby did exactly the same against Chiefs last year when Sinoti scored in the North west corner. End justified the means for me as the quality of Sinoti's footwork deserved the score.

Don't think anyone is pointing the finger, just asking what's different

Yes, I don't blame Farrell. But him (or indeed Flood) doing this seems no less againat rugby values than what Goneva did.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
dick g (IP Logged)
05 September, 2018 08:22
Where does this "values of the game" come from. Is there something in the Laws or is it standing gidance to refs. Needs a bit of clarification.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
05 September, 2018 09:04
Quote:
dick g
Where does this "values of the game" come from. Is there something in the Laws or is it standing gidance to refs. Needs a bit of clarification.


I guess he means Law 9.26

"A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship."

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
dick g (IP Logged)
05 September, 2018 11:05
Quote:
London_Falcon
Quote:
dick g
Where does this "values of the game" come from. Is there something in the Laws or is it standing gidance to refs. Needs a bit of clarification.


I guess he means Law 9.26

"A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship."

Which foooling the opposition is not.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
05 September, 2018 18:17
It's no different to a rushed conversion to prevent TMO interference with the awarding of a try.

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
06 September, 2018 09:13
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
London_Falcon
Quote:
dick g
Where does this "values of the game" come from. Is there something in the Laws or is it standing gidance to refs. Needs a bit of clarification.


I guess he means Law 9.26

"A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship."

Which foooling the opposition is not.

Yep, 100% agree - I said about that Tempest referring to 'Values' was garbage!

 
Re: Tricky Nicky
muzzdobetter (IP Logged)
07 September, 2018 00:24
Exactly. Tempest switched off and assumed he’d touched down, and he didn’t blow his whistle ( just listened back on the replay). BUT, in contrast, Wayne Barnes would have admitted he’d cocked up and would have apologised, not invented an offence. That’s the difference in credibility.


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