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Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
kath. (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 17:39
Premiership Rugby head Ian Ritchie has told the BBC it is "right and proper" to look into scrapping promotion from and relegation to the Championship.

MORE HERE

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
nook10 (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 19:37
Who's going to be invited to the top table. How many teams in the league and what criteria

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 20:06
Saw on Facebook today that league could be ringfenced this season, with 13 teams in the Prem next year. Haven't seen any confirmation though on proper news outlets though.(Sm8)

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
AJfalc (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 20:41
This is our only chance of not playing Championship rugby next season.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Wensleydale Falcon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 21:14
With 10 league games still to play there are still 50 points up for grabs.
Iím sure that the players will not have such a defeatist attitude.
Itís times like this where we as supporters can show our true colours.
Letís get behind the guys...!!

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Robs (IP Logged)
07 January, 2019 22:44
Quote:
Leipziger
Saw on Facebook today that league could be ringfenced this season, with 13 teams in the Prem next year. Haven't seen any confirmation though on proper news outlets though.(Sm8)

Pretty sure that they won't change the rules mid season
But I could be wrong!

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 08:00
After Exeter won promotion, what relegated Prem team has failed to return to the Prem at the first time of asking? I was just thinking if it's been a few years and there is an established trend that the relegated clubs bounce straight back, is that a strong enough argument for ring fencing? Any thoughts?

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 08:43
Quote:
Robs
Quote:
Leipziger
Saw on Facebook today that league could be ringfenced this season, with 13 teams in the Prem next year. Haven't seen any confirmation though on proper news outlets though.(Sm8)

Pretty sure that they won't change the rules mid season
But I could be wrong!

Piece in Times yesterday suggesting Prem thinking of ditching relegation this season. RFU unlikely to approve. Would PR be prepared to operate outside RFU orbit? Doubt it. We could be on verge of Mexican standoff.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Robs (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 13:54
I guess nobody would "suffer". If the Prem went up to 13

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
A tramp abroad (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 14:32
Quote:
Robs
I guess nobody would "suffer". If the Prem went up to 13

If it was ring fenced at 13 the ambitious Championship clubs who fail to go up this season would would "suffer" as they will lose the opportunity to establish themselves in the Premiership (e.g. Exeter) or go to the wall (e.g. London Welsh).

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 15:09
Thing i,s no Championship club, to the best of my knowledge, has leapfrogged demoted Prem club for years, and if that trend continues they'll never make it to the prem. I think if a team is top of the league and has all the infrastructure in place they could then apply to join. I know there is no ideal solution but I wouldn't want a repeat of the London Welsh scenario because the club, players and supporters all suffered because the club really wasn't ready to make the step up.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 15:28
Quote:
Bedlington Lad
Thing i,s no Championship club, to the best of my knowledge, has leapfrogged demoted Prem club for years, and if that trend continues they'll never make it to the prem. I think if a team is top of the league and has all the infrastructure in place they could then apply to join. I know there is no ideal solution but I wouldn't want a repeat of the London Welsh scenario because the club, players and supporters all suffered because the club really wasn't ready to make the step up.

Too much uncertainty in an application process. You put in all the money, build the facilities, get the team together... and then the RFU and the cartel turn you down. Too risky. At least at the moment, if a team meets the criteria and wins the Championship, the are guaranteed to go up, no question.

As for clubs going bust, it's not good but that's up to them. I think it's a bit patronising (I'm sure that's not your intention, Bedlington) to say we should save smaller clubs from themselves.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Peter_B (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 18:05
Bristol finished above Worcester but the Championship had managed to find a system where the Premiership club had another chance to go up.



Peter

C'mon you Bristol Boys!

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 18:07
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
Bedlington Lad
Thing i,s no Championship club, to the best of my knowledge, has leapfrogged demoted Prem club for years, and if that trend continues they'll never make it to the prem. I think if a team is top of the league and has all the infrastructure in place they could then apply to join. I know there is no ideal solution but I wouldn't want a repeat of the London Welsh scenario because the club, players and supporters all suffered because the club really wasn't ready to make the step up.

Too much uncertainty in an application process. You put in all the money, build the facilities, get the team together... and then the RFU and the cartel turn you down. Too risky. At least at the moment, if a team meets the criteria and wins the Championship, the are guaranteed to go up, no question.

As for clubs going bust, it's not good but that's up to them. I think it's a bit patronising (I'm sure that's not your intention, Bedlington) to say we should save smaller clubs from themselves.
I certainly didn't mean it to sound patronising, it's a genuine concern. It's very difficult because I can see your scenario playing out when a team has everything in place, I was thinking more that the club grows as the team grows, like Worcester and Exter, does that make sense? I've no desire to deny anyone with the vision and amvbition a crack at the prem

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
chiplad (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 18:22
with respect, the rules were known at the start. Worcester didn't get another chance. They got the same chance as everyone else, no?

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 18:34
At the moment, a relegated team with a healthy parachute payment squats like a cuckoo in the Championship nest. Apart from Bristol, promotion back to Prem has come after a season of exile. But, in reality automatic promotion has ceased to exist since Bedford declared that it would not go up even if it topped Championship. Promotion is, in effect, optional. Use the parachute payment as a cash prize pot for top Championship sides so that over a few seasons, they can prepare for a step up and apply to join Premiership. When nececessary, have two Prem conferences with end of season play-offs.

Simples.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Peter_B (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 18:45
I was adding to Beflingtiion Ladís point about no one leapfrogging the relegated Premiership club: Bristol finished above Worcester but the Championship had managed to find a system where the Premiership club had another chance to go up. That could apply to any club that had the wherewithal to go up and thrive. I didnít think I needed to add the second bit as it was rather obvious.



Peter

C'mon you Bristol Boys!

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Marco19819 (IP Logged)
08 January, 2019 19:00
If Irish get promoted then changing the rules is moot.

You would just promote Irish as normal and ring fence. It doesn't change the game for ambitious clubs. They simply apply to come into the prem and show that they have the means to be competitive. Simple.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 08:00
Quote:
Marco19819
If Irish get promoted then changing the rules is moot.
You would just promote Irish as normal and ring fence. It doesn't change the game for ambitious clubs. They simply apply to come into the prem and show that they have the means to be competitive. Simple.

I just can't get on board with a system where a club's league status is decided by a committee of people looking at said club's location, stadium and finances (if they can get over their own vested interests), rather than what they do on the pitch. Apart from the fact it's completely the opposite of what sport's supposed to be about, it's even higher-risk than the current system so it'd actually deter investment in a Championship club rather than encourage it.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
nursepete (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 08:17
As far as I am aware, outside of London Irish, there is only Ealing who want to be promoted to the Premiership. Therefore, promote Irish and Ealing and close the door for 3 or 5 years to allow either the Championship clubs to put the infrastructure in place to allow for promotion or stick at the 14 club ringfenced premiership.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 08:23
To modify what I have already posted, promoton could be secured by winning a game against the botom Prem side. But the loser would not be relegated. Allow thd Prem to expand until it contains all clubs who wish and can afford to comoete at top level.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
nook10 (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 10:02
Irish are moving to a new ground , don't know how that is going to effect them, but trailfinder's ground does not meet premier standards yet.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Marco19819 (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 14:39
[quote Leipziger][quote Marco19819]If Irish get promoted then changing the rules is moot.


I understand what you are saying but that is where survival is found these days. Having the money and the means to buy players like Charles Piutau! What you do off the pitch is how you get results on it!



I just can't get on board with a system where a club's league status is decided by a committee of people looking at said club's location, stadium and finances (if they can get over their own vested interests), rather than what they do on the pitch. Apart from the fact it's completely the opposite of what sport's supposed to be about, it's even higher-risk than the current system so it'd actually deter investment in a Championship club rather than encourage it.[

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
aidanb (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 17:05
I would rather watch a product whereby the clubs were always trying to win the game rather then trying not to lose it.

I would also rather watch a product that was all about the players developing their skills so their international sides are stronger.

How that is achieved isn't by the current structure because from day 1 the talk has been of relegation rather than having a good season in prep for the World Cup which is now this year.

Play the game to score tries and entertain us and don't play it to avoid defeat.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 18:41
Quote:
aidanb
I would rather watch a product whereby the clubs were always trying to win the game rather then trying not to lose it.
I would also rather watch a product that was all about the players developing their skills so their international sides are stronger.

How that is achieved isn't by the current structure because from day 1 the talk has been of relegation rather than having a good season in prep for the World Cup which is now this year.

Play the game to score tries and entertain us and don't play it to avoid defeat.
Spot on. Top end pro rugby will flourish and the Championship will find its place. It's going to happen. Just a question of how and when.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Marco19819 (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 19:20
Absolutely. Rugby doesn't have a choice. If england are going to compete internationally, if we are going to look after players and secure geographical spread of top class rugby across the nation then it's essential.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
09 January, 2019 20:54
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
aidanb
I would rather watch a product whereby the clubs were always trying to win the game rather then trying not to lose it.
I would also rather watch a product that was all about the players developing their skills so their international sides are stronger.

How that is achieved isn't by the current structure because from day 1 the talk has been of relegation rather than having a good season in prep for the World Cup which is now this year.

Play the game to score tries and entertain us and don't play it to avoid defeat.
Spot on. Top end pro rugby will flourish and the Championship will find its place. It's going to happen. Just a question of how and when.

Oh it's going to happen, I agree. The top clubs have been after ringfencing for over 15 years at least, and have deliberately engineered a situation whereby very few Championship clubs will be able to compete in the short-term. Thus, they're going to now have the cartel protected in perpetuity.

There is absolutely no reason why the threat of relegation should make a team play negative, defensive rugby. How you play doesn't prevent relegation, winning games does. If Dean Richards said to me that we have to play a slow, sideways game with plenty of aimless kicking to avoid relegation this season, my reply would be "Yeah? And how's that working out?" The Falcons have always been at their best when playing an attacking game - whenever we've been a defensive side, we've struggled.

Relegation doesn't magically make a brilliant national team. Scotland have improved finally after many years, but aren't doing any better than England or France overall. Wales aren't a world-class team. England have beaten South Africa and Australia this season, the latter with plenty to spare. Ireland's success likely has as much, if not more, to do with quality players and coaching as it does with the provinces not worrying about relegation.

And while we're on that, the top players in the Premiership don't even worry about relegation. Not having the threat of relegation won't make Exeter, Wasps and Saracens' players any better because those teams aren't ever down the bottom. Leicester realistically aren't going down, so Jonny May won't become a better winger under ringfencing.

Anyway, I guess in a few years we'll see what happens.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 08:47
The current system plays into the hands of the trillionaire owners who can buy themselves regularly into the top third of the Premiership. A form of ringfencing which doesn't preclude ambitious Champ clubs from aspiring to join the top echelon could, in my not very humble opinion, make for a more competitive league.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 08:53
Cornish Pirates would definitely oppose ringfencing:-

Guardian article

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
aidanb (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 10:21
Quote:
London_Falcon
Cornish Pirates would definitely oppose ringfencing:-
Guardian article

Thatís a Times article and is behind a paywall

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
London_Falcon (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 10:59
Ooops, yep, sorry.

I actually read something in the Telegraph as well, with the Exeter chairman saying that they will fight ringfencing "tooth and nail", and would consider legal action if required.

My point was really that we shouldn't assume it is just LI and Ealing who are seeking promotion.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 15:27
Abolishing relegation, but allowing some form of promotion - perhaps involving a degree of independent qualification assessment - would not constitute ringfencing.

Premi9ership rugby would grow organically. Clubs which couldn't survive the financial rigours of Prem Rugby could retreat to the Championship.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
SixNineOne (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 17:47
Apart from Irish, I think both Ealing and Pirates have premiership aspirations and are said to be considering legal action if ring fencing is introduced on the grounds that it is anti-competitive. The problem is that neither Ealing nor Pirates currently have a ground that is fit for premiership use. Ealing have a smart 4G pitch but no stands and little space in which to build them, however well funded they may be. Pirates are still awaiting for local government to give the final go ahead or cheque (or both) for the Stadium for Cornwall to be built in Truro. This suggests to me that ring fencing in the short term might be OK, not least because it would be a nonsense for any of the current premiership teams to be relegated, but that there needs to be a way of letting up and coming teams to be given a chance, say. every three years.

There is also a geographical argument. Many people feel that Yorkshire Carnegie should return to the premiership as a way of making sure that the big bit of East England between Leicester and Newcastle gets some representation. All this leads me to favour Nigel Melville's suggestion of a 16 team, 2 conference system.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 19:19
Quote:
SixNineOne
Apart from Irish, I think both Ealing and Pirates have premiership aspirations and are said to be considering legal action if ring fencing is introduced on the grounds that it is anti-competitive. The problem is that neither Ealing nor Pirates currently have a ground that is fit for premiership use. Ealing have a smart 4G pitch but no stands and little space in which to build them, however well funded they may be. Pirates are still awaiting for local government to give the final go ahead or cheque (or both) for the Stadium for Cornwall to be built in Truro. This suggests to me that ring fencing in the short term might be OK, not least because it would be a nonsense for any of the current premiership teams to be relegated, but that there needs to be a way of letting up and coming teams to be given a chance, say. every three years.
There is also a geographical argument. Many people feel that Yorkshire Carnegie should return to the premiership as a way of making sure that the big bit of East England between Leicester and Newcastle gets some representation. All this

leads me to favour Nigel Melville's suggestion of a 16 team, 2 conference system.

Also mine, something I - and others - have advocated for some years. The logic is inescapable.......

It will happen.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
steve1888 (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 20:25
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 08:05
Quote:
steve1888
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?
I don't think so - I think momentum is shifting towards something other (who knows what?) than the current set-up

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 08:27
Quote:
steve1888
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?

No because the relegation debate isn't really about England winning the World Cup or 6N, or English clubs winning in Europe, or developing players or stadia or teams playing an attractive game or anything else to do with rugby - it's about Premiership club owners protecting their investments.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
chiplad (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 09:52
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
steve1888
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?

No because the relegation debate isn't really about England winning the World Cup or 6N, or English clubs winning in Europe, or developing players or stadia or teams playing an attractive game or anything else to do with rugby - it's about Premiership club owners protecting their investments.

Agreed, and also about CVC getting a return on their investment sooner. Talk about benefit for the game in general nothing more than a distraction.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 10:28
Quote:
chiplad
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
steve1888
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?

No because the relegation debate isn't really about England winning the World Cup or 6N, or English clubs winning in Europe, or developing players or stadia or teams playing an attractive game or anything else to do with rugby - it's about Premiership club owners protecting their investments.

Agreed, and also about CVC getting a return on their investment sooner. Talk about benefit for the game in general nothing more than a distraction.

Not true. Without the threat of relegation, clubs can devote more time to developing young, indigenous talent instead of buying overseas players. There will still be a place for overseas players, but a club's survival will not depend on them. Better for the clubs financially. Better for England. Better for supporters.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bristol Welsh (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 10:30
Lets start at the real reason, they want to protect their investment. Well, firstly, if you invest in a rugby club expecting a big return then you are an idiot to start with. Secondly, businesses go bankrupt all the time, why should a rugby club be different. They want a cartel, and cartels are bad for business

Now the rugby, for every Leinster and Munster, there is a Treviso and Dragons. Ringfencing does not produce better rugby, better crowds or success spread around clubs. It allows mediocracy to persist, with no reason to improve, it kills ambition.

Teams get relegated because they are not good enough to survive. As a Bristol fan i know this full well. If we finish bottom we do not deserve to be at the top table. Simple. Who cares if there is no premiership club in Yorkshire, or Cumbria or Cornwall or East Anglia or Kent/Sussex? I don't , but I certainly do not want to place a barrier to any club in those areas who may, one day, want to emulate Exeter.

In my view i would actually reduce the Prem to 8 teams, with relegation to a lower division of around 8 teams.

Unfortunately. like OPEC, Premiership rugby is run in the interests of the few not the many

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
aidanb (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 11:06
If it wasn't for investment you would not have a team to watch in the Prem and thus not a dog in this fight

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 11:33
Response to Bristol Welsh - If you are trying to grow the sport you need to care about areas that are currently barren

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 12:33
Quote:
dick g
Quote:
chiplad
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
steve1888
If Sarries win the champions cup and England the world cup would promotion and relegation be fine ?

No because the relegation debate isn't really about England winning the World Cup or 6N, or English clubs winning in Europe, or developing players or stadia or teams playing an attractive game or anything else to do with rugby - it's about Premiership club owners protecting their investments.

Agreed, and also about CVC getting a return on their investment sooner. Talk about benefit for the game in general nothing more than a distraction.

Not true. Without the threat of relegation, clubs can devote more time to developing young, indigenous talent instead of buying overseas players. There will still be a place for overseas players, but a club's survival will not depend on them. Better for the clubs financially. Better for England. Better for supporters.

Welch, Mark and Davey Wilson, Micky Young, Robinson, Witty, Alex Tait, Hodgson, Hammersley, McGuigan, Harris, Chick... all players we've developed and who are currently integral squad members despite the threat of relegation. Then there's all the ones who aren't with us right now, like Brookes and Swinson.

We can all moan about Radwan being left out for Arscott, but that's not because he's a young English player, it's because, rightly or wrongly, Deano thinks that Arscott is more likely to help us win that particular game. Abolishing relegation wouldn't change that because presumably teams would still want to win as many games as possible (if they didn't, it wouldn't be better for supporters).

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
chiplad (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 17:51
All of this. There is a significant amount of effort goes in to identification and development of English players already. I attended a presentation on this recently and the manpower and talent going into it is remarkable. Hard to see how it can be improved with ringfencing, and foreign players DO add to the quality of the game, and are therefore good for teams and spectators.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 22:58
We have a pretty grim EQP percentage each game and weíre still bottom, would that really change post ring fencing?

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
dick g (IP Logged)
12 January, 2019 07:39
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
We have a pretty grim EQP percentage each game and weíre still bottom, would that really change post ring fencing?

Yes

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Leipziger (IP Logged)
12 January, 2019 08:44
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
We have a pretty grim EQP percentage each game and weíre still bottom, would that really change post ring fencing?

Not necessarily. Our EQP has been declining over the past couple of years, but actually that's correlated with us not expecting to be in a relegation battle. When we were last around the bottom of the table, our EQP was quite high. Plus there's all the players I named above who we developed as a relegation candidate. So it doesn't follow that scrapping relegation would automatically lead to clubs flooding their teams with young English players.

You can point to us signing Logo last summer to replace Vickers, but in reality that's irrelevant in the EQP because Bobby was never going to play for England. Similarly, we might as well pick Goneva on the wing as Arscott, it doesn't make any difference to England.

Clubs want to win games, so they will always sign the best players they can get to achieve that aim. Whether they are 21yo English, 30yo English or 25yo Fijian is irrelevant. If you want the Falcons' main goal to be to develop players for England, rather than win games and trophies, that's fine. But don't expect huge crowds turn up at KP for it.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
12 January, 2019 18:24
Re your last point Leipy, we arenít doing either at the moment.

Ultimately as long as the English game is run for the benefit of the guys who own the clubs then it doesnít matter if weíre ring fenced or not. The only way players arenít going to get flogged to death is as per cricket with central contracts and unlike the pro 14 fellows, thatís never going to happen.

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
chiplad (IP Logged)
14 January, 2019 11:30
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
We have a pretty grim EQP percentage each game and weíre still bottom, would that really change post ring fencing?

Not necessarily. Our EQP has been declining over the past couple of years, but actually that's correlated with us not expecting to be in a relegation battle. When we were last around the bottom of the table, our EQP was quite high.
Interesting, the more Englishmen we play, the worse we get?

 
Re: Premiership promotion & relegation - Ian Ritchie
joefrog (IP Logged)
15 January, 2019 09:39
I think Cornish Pirates might have something to say about that comment regarding promotion prospects



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/01/2019 09:43 by joefrog.


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