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Last result: Northampton Saints 59-33 Newcastle Falcons


Here we go again with the salary cap
aidanb (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 18:11
I expect more omertŗ from the clubs

report here

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 18:17
Hooray, somebody cares. That at least is some sort of progress.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Yorksfalcon (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 19:15
I donít think we can really complain about it if, as widely reported, we donít actually spend to the cap anyway. It doesnít really make any difference to us if there is a cap or not we would still be spending less than them.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Leipziger (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 20:31
Obviously such a major breach of the regulations had to be punished despite the reputational damage it will cause Premiership Rugby. Although apparently "this should therefore not be referred to as a breach of the Salary Cap regulations".

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 20:46
I can think of far more things to get my knickers in a twist about than Quins going 0.2% over the cap. As we donít reach it it doesnít affect us and to be honest I think it makes much less difference than people make out.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Osric (IP Logged)
05 February, 2019 21:55
In light of (very) recent signings, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that other clubs might have transgressed.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 07:57
I think they should follow the NFL and publicise salary cap earnings so the whole thing is transparent

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 08:30
From the Wasps board : We are all entitled to an explanation as to how Sarries can afford half the England pack, the England 10, Wigglesworth and Goode et al. I say this sincerely because I just can't get the numbers to add up. The Cap has become a farce. Rugby will end up like soccer soon with the same handful of wealthy clubs competing for everything. Sad!

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
alas (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 09:53
Are Sarries paying anyone as much as Sopoaga and Le Roux? Would be surprised if they are. Sarries claim they can sign players like Williams for less than they were offered elsewhere because the players want to win competitions. Not sure whether that really is the case, but it seems plausible to a degree and they have let players like Ashton go when they got too expensive. Because Wasps are in a mess and have poor training facilities they will have to pay top dollar to get players to sign.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
pityacker (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 10:11
Quote:
Bedlington Lad
From the Wasps board : We are all entitled to an explanation as to how Sarries can afford half the England pack, the England 10, Wigglesworth and Goode et al. I say this sincerely because I just can't get the numbers to add up. The Cap has become a farce. Rugby will end up like soccer soon with the same handful of wealthy clubs competing for everything. Sad!

When you see that Quins and Wasps have exceeded the cap and you look at their squads compared to Saracens squad and the salaries involved its amazing Saracens are allededly able to keep below the cap and now bring Daly in .

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Falc Dancer (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 10:25
Fissler tweeted yesterday that another team, not Quins, are being investigated for breaching the salary cap

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
RiponFalcon (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 10:42
England players have 12 games this season and even more next year. Thatís potentially £300k from England appearance fees. With potential endorsement income a club salary may be a relatively small fraction of a top players earnings. Some players may see an England place profile and titles as more important than an extra 100k club salary
Still canít see how Sarries stay within cap, but wasps fans complaining is funny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2019 11:11 by RiponFalcon.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 10:53
Also bear in mind that the salaries of the coaching staff are included within the cap, and sarries have more coaches than National Express.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Leipziger (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 11:33
Quote:
RiponFalcon
England players have 12 games this season and even more next year. Thatís potentially £300k from England appearance fees. With potential endorsement income a club salary may be a relatively small fraction of a top players earnings. Some players may see an England place profile and titles as more important than an extra 100k club salary
Still canít see how Sarries stay within cap, but wasps fans complaining is funny

For a player like Daly, Farrell, Itoje, the Vunipolas, if they stay fit they can make the sharp end of £300,000 a year playing for England so that certainly makes up for earning maybe £100k less than they might in France. As you say they will also be challenging for the league and Champs Cup every year, which at another club they probably wouldn't be. Two players are also outside the salary cap as marquee players.

The only thing that doesn't square with all that, is London/commuter belt house prices.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
steve1888 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 12:53
Daly would be outside of the cap but like I said high earners will leave too.

The salary cap is one thing but surely they get other endorsements, sponsorships and other means of income on back of playing for the best team in Europe.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 13:18
RA friend of mine has just sent me a message saying Itoje has resigned for £750 to 1 million a year

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
alas (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 13:25
Presumably Itoje will be one of their 'marquee players' along with one of Farrell, Williams or the Vunipolas. Daly can't be a 'marquee player' but there will be an £80,000 EPS allowance.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
markismith50 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 13:38
Edited by Smithy due to Leipy posting the relevant regs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2019 15:31 by markismith50.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Leipziger (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 14:00
From Salary Cap regulations 2018-19 on excluded/marquee players:

(c) A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:
(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the
Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or
(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other
than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (cool smiley has only
been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement
for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or
(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous
Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary
Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.

(d) A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as a second Excluded Player who:
(i) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year; or
(ii) was that Clubís second Excluded Player in the previous Salary Cap Year.


Itoje and Farrell would seem to fulfil c)i), while Daly - and either Farrell or Itoje if they were the 2nd excluded player this season - could be d)i). Can't see anything about a marquee/excluded player not being allowed to have played in the Premiership for previous two seasons.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 17:57
Also, don't forget that total salary outlay is a function of squad size as well as individual salaries. Sale for example have a squad of only 32 players.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
hooter (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 18:29
To be a marquee player the player has to have played outside the premiership the previous year ie France, Ireland wales Scotland or Southern Hemisphere

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 19:08
i must admit itís pretty good going of Sarries to squeeze players, coaches and staff into £7m however Iím prepared to say innocent until guilty. They are getting a bit of a kicking with dubiety about their salaries budget but I reckon a lot of that is jealousy.

I havenít a clue how much their players earn, and their fans donít either so not sure how other people do, so all we are getting is a free for all on various forums with Ďexpertsí putting two and two together etc.

They can offer a lot more than salary hence apparently pay less than other clubs....they can offer trophies, route to international rugby and the chance of playing for a top club. Plus they earn quite a bit through the RFU, is it £80k a pop?

Having said that, there should be published details (not individual playersí mind you) of all clubs figures so all is seen as above board, otherwise you get this ridiculous feeding frenzy doing the round.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Leipziger (IP Logged)
06 February, 2019 20:04
Quote:
hooter
To be a marquee player the player has to have played outside the premiership the previous year ie France, Ireland wales Scotland or Southern Hemisphere

Seems I've misread the rules, so the 2nd excluded player can't have played in the Prem the previous season unless he was a 2nd excluded player in the previous season, but definitely looks like the 1st excluded player can be a current player as long as he has been with his current club for 2 years already, or 1 year if he was new to the Prem a year ago.

Complicated but seems Farrell and Itoje qualify to be a 1st excluded player.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2019 20:26 by Leipziger.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 07:20
Why do they need all this complicated marquee player cobblers? Set a salary cap, add a painfully simple incentive to nurture England players, enforce it.

It really isn't difficult for pity's sake.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Siders (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 11:59
Does anyone know whether the salary counted towards the cap includes basic pay, or also includes benefits such as car, accomodation, family allowances, travel etc.

If not, then i suspect that'd be one of the ways the southern clubs use the rules to their advantage.

Given the stakes, i'd be very surprised if there was material non-compliance, but the rules can clearly be exploited.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
markismith50 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 12:10
It includes everything

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Siders (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 12:19
Thanks for clarifying.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 12:39
There have been rumours passed around, and I cannot possibly comment on how true they may or may not be, that one club was at one time offering houses to prospective signings, and that some sponsors of another club were giving well paid non-jobs to wives and girlfriends of players, and all of this was totally outside of the club finances, never mind ever getting a mention within the salary cap paperwork. When you see a club absolutely stuffed with expensive players & a coaching team that is so large that it almost qualifies as a small nation, your imagination quite reasonably wonders if such shenanigans may be behind it all.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
steve1888 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 12:41
Does the salary cap include the coaching team ?

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Leipziger (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 13:02
Quote:
Monkey1
Why do they need all this complicated marquee player cobblers? Set a salary cap, add a painfully simple incentive to nurture England players, enforce it.
It really isn't difficult for pity's sake.

You'd have thought not.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Robs (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 15:04
Quote:
steve1888
Does the salary cap include the coaching team ?

Others commenting on this forum say it does but I'm struggling to find confirmation in Leipys link to the 2018-19 Regulations on this thread.

I too would be interested to know the answer

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
markismith50 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2019 15:31
To the best of my knowledge it doesn't include coaches.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Bedlington Lad (IP Logged)
08 February, 2019 11:48
I took this from the Saints board - they are having a lively discussion with visiting Sarries supporters:

Mark McCall said in the media early in the season it would be hard to keep all their best players given the salary cap.

Yet they've gone and signed another Lion to add their collection somehow within the salary cap. By my reckoning that's 10 Lions in their team:

Mako Vunipola
George
Itoje
Kruis
B Vunipola (selected but injured)
Farrell
Barrett
Maitland
Williams
Daly

That's before you get to Kock (International cap), Figallo (I), Tolofua (I), Lamositele (I), Skelton (I), Kpoku, Day, Burger (I), Iziekwe (I), Clark (I), Rhodes, Earl, Wray, Wigglesworth (I), Spencer (I), Mallins, Lozowski (I), Taylor (I), Bosch (I), Tompkins, Lewington, Strettle (I), Wyles (I), Goode (I)

10 Lions within the salary cap is pretty impressive in itself. When you add 16 other internationals plus the other handy players I've mentioned above I've got to take my hats off to them.

Looking at that squad, to my thinking the only way they can get that much talent within the salary cap is a lot of players accepting significantly less than their market value due to Sarries' success and culture

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Robs (IP Logged)
08 February, 2019 12:04
.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2019 18:18 by Robs.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Monkey1 (IP Logged)
08 February, 2019 12:51
To be fair, we have no reason to believe that Sarries can't manage to play that little lot within the limitations of the salary cap. There is also no reason no to believe in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, and pixies at the bottom of the garden.

Now please excuse me, must dash, I fear some little green men have just arrived from outer space & I suspect that they want to probe me.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Kwa444 (IP Logged)
08 February, 2019 18:39
Thing is, other clubs/DoRs will have a good idea what they are paid as the agents will have advertised them around at some stage. To this extent rugby could be self policing regarding the cap.

That said Steve Diamond makes the point incessantly about cap breaches, so I suspect that he's probably right.

As for Sarries, you can say what you want about winning things and wanting to play, but players are also very conscious of how short a career can be and how an injury could happen in the next game. I can't accept that Sarries will be able to pay much below the market rate. They might be able to get away with 50k less than others but not significantly. It doesn't matter how much you offer some sides are in the running and some aren't.

You also have to accept that human nature will not allow a significant variation in salary.

 
Re: Here we go again with the salary cap
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
08 February, 2019 19:54
Sadly people are more likely to leap on the feeding frenzy train and give Sarries a good kicking than even grudgingly admit any form of admiration, thereís a bucket load of jealousy doing the rounds. Personally I have more concern how Bristol can pay Hughes the reported £750k (presumably pre employerís costs) but there you go.

As Iíve said before, while weíre bottom of the league thereís far more things to concern ourselves about.


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