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England team for Argies
southamwasp (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 12:37
England team to play Argentina

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 62 caps),
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 26 caps),
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 33 caps),
12 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 7 caps),
11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 13 caps),
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 37 caps),
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 70 caps),
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 42 caps),
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 86 caps) captain,
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 74 caps),
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 58 caps),
5 George Kruis (Saracens 20 caps),
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 56 caps),
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 1 cap),
8 Nathan Hughes (Wasps 10 caps).

Finishers: 16 Jamie George (Saracens 17 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps), 19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 44 caps), 20 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks 1 cap), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins 73 caps), 22 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 2 caps).

 
Re: England team for Argies
wombles222 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 12:55
Will be there with the chaps Saturday! Looking forward to this one!! Slater given the opportunity to state his case in the centres, Would like to see Roco given a decent run out for this one, and impact from the bench (although Genge is going to have to deal well with the pressure as he can run hot when wound up). Also looking forward to seeing Underhill and Curry as they really look to be the future for us.

Have the shirt and top sorted, ironed and pressed, and cannot wait to tilt the first jar of the day outside HQ!

 
Re: England team for Argies
DuncanS (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 13:05
My only real issue with this is that I don't see Joe as an impact sub (or 'finisher'). He has an engine that will run all match, but if necessary you can tell him to blast it for 60 and then bring on Lawes for impact.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 13:23
I agree Duncan about him being an 80 minute player but the other two are also 80 minutes players. I think the team just reflects the pecking order and those two are ahead. I expect Lawes to play for 50 and then Launchbury for 30 and then next week Lawes will probably play from the bench with Itoje hopefully only playing 50 minutes.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Westy68 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 15:34
Hopefully we may see Kruis actually play a good game at international level for once

 
Re: England team for Argies
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 15:45
Ha ha Westy, as long as Itoje is around the team, Kruis will play as that's his best partner and he also is the strongest scrummager and line out caller, he is also the defensive leader. Kruis is not going anywhere anytime soon so we all have to get used to him in the second row.

Also i think it's a bit unfair to Kruis to say he has not played a good international game, he has played loads

 
Re: England team for Argies
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:30
Quote:
Westy68
Hopefully we may see Kruis actually play a good game at international level for once

What an ignorant comment

 
Re: England team for Argies
Jack9909 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 18:45
Would you agree he's struggled to hit the heights for England that he has for Saracens? I don't think it's a particularly ignorant comment...

 
Re: England team for Argies
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:06
I don't think that is true Jack but that is a debate that can be argued. I think he was unlucky last season with injuries but i think the season before, his partnership with Itoje was as good at England level as it was for Sarries but i think to say he has never played a good game for England does not make much sense to me

 
Re: England team for Argies
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:36
His last really great game for England was some time ago. It is not unreasonable to suggest that Kruis has a lot to prove as he was terrible on the lions tour by his previous standards pre injuries, and in fact by most standards he looked like he did not belong there. He is clearly way, way behind Lawes in the form chart. Yes, that is not Eddie's view, he cares little for form and little for positions that clubs play their players in for that matter. Whilst we play the likes of Argentina and Samoa it is unlikely to change. Lose a couple of games in the 6n and you will see Eddie drop some of his players like hot potatoes.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 20:18
Westwales I will tackle a few things, Kruis had a poor game, a very poor game in the first lions test. He was not poor on the tour, up until that point he had actually played very well so i disagree with that point.

Lawes has played very well this season but so has Kruis and he was outstanding in the european cup game we played against Northampton, he has also been playing at second row and lawes at 6 so i won't even compare them.

Lastly i don't understand this last great game for England was some time ago point that you guys are making, the reason for that is Kruis because of injury has not played for England since last autumn so logically his last great game for England was a while ago as he has not played for England for a year.

I want you to point to the games under Eddie Jones when Kruis has played that he has not played well as i am scratching my head thinking about those games, this is a guy who had the most tackles in the first full season under Eddie and played only two games for England last season so i don't know what metric you are using to judge him

 
Re: England team for Argies
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 01:01
Haskell was fantastic in his last games for England, one of the great performances in the shirt, but it was a long time ago, he was injured and rightly has not been picked. Having an injury interrupted season as Kruis has had means his last good game was a while back, just as for the now dropped Haskell, and he should need to show some real form now before being picked. Haskell has not, and has thus got the chop. Since injury Kruis has had a poor tour, I simply don't think he had any good games on the tour, he had one disastrous game and in the rest was not good/OK at best, and the quality performance you mention of late. It's not much to get reselected on, it is a bit of a mixed picture, surely you can see that given you admit the poor Lions test? I take it you agree that it is correct to not pick Haskell despite having been outstanding in his last few games for England? Assuming you do, why should we not approach Kruis with at least some degree of scepticism, considering his international outing in the summer and long lay off. There have to be some question marks there, which is not to say he should not be picked, (I may well have picked him from my armchair) but it is not the nailed on selection it would have been in the past. He needs to perform against Australia next week, assuming he plays.

Lawes had a great tour, but Kruis had one poor test and a mediocre tour, in international terms Lawes is in form. I don't buy the argument that Lawes and Kruis are not in competition as Lawes can be a six, sure they can play in the same team with Itoje, but they are clearly second rows and sooner or later when they are all fit one will miss out if England secure their back row as Robshaw/Billy/mystery seven.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 07:13
It is reasonable to argue the merits of Kruis' recent internstional performances . However it is clearly ridiculous to imply thst he has NEVER played well for England as Westy68 did, and which then prompted the subsequent comments

 
Re: England team for Argies
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 07:30
I thought that comment was meant to have a smiley next to it, but it isn't my comment.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 09:08
Fair point westwales, it is reasonable to argue about Kruis in comparison to someone like Lawes for example and whether he has played well enough to get selected again. I think he has started this season very well and played well and there is also the fact that Itoje and Kruis are the line out callers in the team along with Ewels, if Itoje does not play, Kruis will start.

Eddie is also trying to build a strong set piece game talking about the line out and scrum, well Kruis is still the strongest scrummager and best line out caller, although Maro is close in both departments and actually stronger than him.

Your comments are entirely valid, it is the comments of Westy68 that had zero merit to me as it did not make much sense to say Kruis has never had a good international game.


The last point is, Kruis knows he is under pressure to perform, his last international game was a disaster and Itoje is big enough to play TH lock and can call the line out and some people have suggested an Itoje/Lawes second row as that's the most athletic one.

I still think Eddie sees Itoje/Kruis as his best second row combination. What will be interesting is what happens in the six nations when Billy is back as i think lawes will be number 19 and Launchers/Hughes and curry potentially battling for one position in the team. One of the second rows is going to be out of the 23 in the six nations and if Kruis does not perform this autumn it will be him, as it stands now, it will be Launchers

 
Re: England team for Argies
Westy68 (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 15:00
Quote:
Chris1850
It is reasonable to argue the merits of Kruis' recent internstional performances . However it is clearly ridiculous to imply thst he has NEVER played well for England as Westy68 did, and which then prompted the subsequent comments

That would be when. He has not played at the same level as lawes Launchbury or itoje.

Donít come onto this forum and make personal insulting comments on a post you donít agree with. If you donít like it donít comment on it. Or do I have to agree with Sarries supporters on everything.

Just because your team is CURRENTLY good it doesnít make you right.

 
Re: England team for Argies
GeorgeTheWasp (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 15:18
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
there is also the fact that Itoje and Kruis are the line out callers in the team along with Ewels, if Itoje does not play, Kruis will start.

I really hope our locks don't get picked on who can call a line-out...

 
Re: England team for Argies
Raggs (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 15:31
Lawes is also a good lineout caller, and works with our first choice hooker on a near daily basis.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 16:34
Quote:
Westy68
Quote:
Chris1850
It is reasonable to argue the merits of Kruis' recent internstional performances . However it is clearly ridiculous to imply thst he has NEVER played well for England as Westy68 did, and which then prompted the subsequent comments

That would be when. He has not played at the same level as lawes Launchbury or itoje.

Donít come onto this forum and make personal insulting comments on a post you donít agree with. If you donít like it donít comment on it. Or do I have to agree with Sarries supporters on everything.

Just because your team is CURRENTLY good it doesnít make you right.

Apologies. It is of course your board and so clearly you are right. I bow to your rational, objective assessment of his past performances.

Respectfully however, FYI, I am not a Sarries supporter so please don't jump to conclusions, though I do wish my team (Sale) could reach the playing heights of Sarries or even yourselves, at least for last season.

 
Re: England team for Argies
Westy68 (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 17:12
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
Westy68
Quote:
Chris1850
It is reasonable to argue the merits of Kruis' recent internstional performances . However it is clearly ridiculous to imply thst he has NEVER played well for England as Westy68 did, and which then prompted the subsequent comments

That would be when. He has not played at the same level as lawes Launchbury or itoje.

Donít come onto this forum and make personal insulting comments on a post you donít agree with. If you donít like it donít comment on it. Or do I have to agree with Sarries supporters on everything.

Just because your team is CURRENTLY good it doesnít make you right.

Apologies. It is of course your board and so clearly you are right. I bow to your rational, objective assessment of his past performances.

Respectfully however, FYI, I am not a Sarries supporter so please don't jump to conclusions, though I do wish my team (Sale) could reach the playing heights of Sarries or even yourselves, at least for last season.

Apologies for calling you a sarries supporter

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