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I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
RossM (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:39
Jones has never lasted more than 4 years in one job. Courtesy of the RFU, he will get that monkey off his back. His record in this season's 6 nations is played 4, won 2 lost 2 (to date). Many people think it could/should have been W 1 and L 3 by now and he's staring down the barrel of the gun next Saturday, with the Championship already lost and Ireland going for The Grand Slam at Twickenham.
England don't look like a team that can win next Saturday. His first choice players look jaded: no energy, no ideas and little enthusiasm. Both Scotland and France out thought his team and him. Joe Schmidt will already know exactly what his boys must do and how to do it. And in my opinion they will.

As an aside, Nathan clearly should not have played yesterday nor indeed against Scotland. He is (now was) obviously unfit. He was taped and strapped up so much, that Dai would have been bankrupt in the bad old days at Wasps. That injury yesterday looked nasty. I doubt if we will see him again this season. And forget about South Africa. I expect Dai is seething.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Raggs (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:52
Trying to avoid the England threads here, but because I'm egotistical I'm going to put my view out there anyway.

We weren't that far off winning the last two games, just as we haven't been far off losing a number before hand.

If the stories of them being beasted in training, with an eye on a continual improvement in fitness leading upto the RWC, are accurate, then I can very easily see a more energetic performance leading to very different results, and Eddie has always said that it's the RWC he's aiming for.

There are still one or two big choices that concern me, mostly being Lawes at 6 (which then forces Robshaw to 7) and Wigglesworth at 3rd choice scrum half. There are other positions I have questions over, but can often understand the logic behind them, even if I may prefer someone else.

If they are merely tired from the season (and admittedly the Lions), but are not being trained to improve for the RWC in terms of fitness, then we simply aren't selecting the right personnel for the gameplan Eddie is trying to implement, and may not even have the right personnel, but all of this is on Eddie.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
RossM (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 11:07
Please would you answer a simple question, Raggs. This should really be asked after next weekend, however, here goes. Are you in a better or worse place, where England rugby is concerned, than you were a year ago?

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 11:27
Quote:
Raggs
Trying to avoid the England threads here, but because I'm egotistical I'm going to put my view out there anyway.
We weren't that far off winning the last two games, just as we haven't been far off losing a number before hand.

If the stories of them being beasted in training, with an eye on a continual improvement in fitness leading upto the RWC, are accurate, then I can very easily see a more energetic performance leading to very different results, and Eddie has always said that it's the RWC he's aiming for.

There are still one or two big choices that concern me, mostly being Lawes at 6 (which then forces Robshaw to 7) and Wigglesworth at 3rd choice scrum half. There are other positions I have questions over, but can often understand the logic behind them, even if I may prefer someone else.

If they are merely tired from the season (and admittedly the Lions), but are not being trained to improve for the RWC in terms of fitness, then we simply aren't selecting the right personnel for the gameplan Eddie is trying to implement, and may not even have the right personnel, but all of this is on Eddie.

England do seem to bear the hallmarks of being over trained. Just as Lancaster's side did in the 2015 World Cup. Crash course conditioning doesn't have a very good track record.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Raggs (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 13:18
Quote:
RossM
Please would you answer a simple question, Raggs. This should really be asked after next weekend, however, here goes. Are you in a better or worse place, where England rugby is concerned, than you were a year ago?

Slightly worse, that's mostly on the selection of Lawes at 6, but otherwise, I don't really feel that there's much difference in our performances, more the results, but the issues are still the same that they have been. Farrell is now offering more of an individual attacking threat, so his inclusion at 12 no longer annoys me as much. Turnover due to injuries is frustrating.

Some of the Lions players are looking a bit jaded too, which doesn't help but is understandable.

If the players are tired going into matches, they'll have less explosiveness, which is vital for better carries and decent clearouts. If those two things improve a bit, I think we'll look rather dangerous.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Buzzboy (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 13:25
I am and was when it was first announced.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
John Tee (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 14:07
Plus so many, I can't count them.
I dont like what he is bringing...I thought he be more expansive..but he has taken the short cut with a game plan which was basically Lancaster mk ll.
He has been very slow to react to something that isn't working. Our backrow problems from day one are still the nemisis 3 years later. The best sides pick us off easily.
We react poorly....

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Nopace (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 14:39
Beasting in the build up to big games is daft imho. Most sports where decent vo2 max is required are in taper phase towards the event, not building. Itís all all about volume, ask any multi sporter, cross countryside skier, where you need to maintain capacity for 90 minutes. You canít build any additional capacity in those few days, thatís all done on the other 42 Weeks of training in the previous period. However they should know their daily training stress scores and whatís will put them into fatigue.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Raggs (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:10
He's putting in the training 18 months before the event. The six nations is not as important to him.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:28
Do you think there is merit or benefit in beasting tired players, then getting them to play internationals 18 months ahead of an event, especially when they mostly have a heavy end of season schedule too?

Whilst he has players who are not centrally contracted, he surely has to take their workload, week to week into account or else you just end up with knackered players, probably injured/more prone to injury players and potentially a culture of poor performances and the risk of losing the squad.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Raggs (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:34
If he's improving their fitness long term then yes, there is a point.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
John Tee (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:44
You can't be loading the players with a regime without the
agreement of the coaches. You have to have concensus which means it benefits both parties. Jones and England may not have treated clubs players that well so why woukd they play his game now.
I understand that England can dictate a lot of things but I think England have backed many players and coaches into a position and instead of having agreement, you may now have resentment.
This is not a condusive position to want to be in.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:46
Quote:
Raggs
He's putting in the training 18 months before the event. The six nations is not as important to him.

I suspect this might be true but I am suspicious that the marginals gains from intensive fitness and conditioning no longer really exist. This is no longer the late 1990s and rugby union is now a mature professional sport.

Jones does seem to be more of a "short term coach" than a "long term coach" and he does have a reputation for being very, very intense and very full on. Probably why his international record is far better than his club record.

As I have said before Jones might just treat the World Cup as short one off assignment and intensively prepare the side to have a good tournament rather than building a side that could potentially dominate World rugby for successive years like Woodward's team did.

Whatever he is doing some of his decisions and selections appear to be very odd.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Boooo (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:51
Quote:
Raggs
He's putting in the training 18 months before the event. The six nations is not as important to him.

That's a really dangerous game to play though.
Because lose three straight games and all that extra fitness won't matter much, if the team is shot to pieces and psychologically scarred.

Winning becomes a huge motivator, it keeps the press on your side and keeps the environment in camp upbeat and positive.

Winning creates real self-belief.

Personally, I think there's a happy medium.
But Eddie's gone all-in and flogged them.
And they look shattered, both mentally and physically.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Gaz (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:55
Theres been more wrong with England over the last few games than fitness. If anyone is buying Eddies's 2-3% rhetoric I'll have a pint of what they are having.

France were poor and left 10-15 points on the pitch, we could have got close at the end but that would have just papered over the cracks, in the same way that the Wales result papered over the cracks.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:59
Quote:
Boooo
Quote:
Raggs
He's putting in the training 18 months before the event. The six nations is not as important to him.

That's a really dangerous game to play though.
Because lose three straight games and all that extra fitness won't matter much, if the team is shot to pieces and psychologically scarred.

Winning becomes a huge motivator, it keeps the press on your side and keeps the environment in camp upbeat and positive.

Winning creates real self-belief.

Personally, I think there's a happy medium.
But Eddie's gone all-in and flogged them.
And they look shattered, both mentally and physically.

Having had a very good start maybe Jones thinks he now has the job security and freedom to start conditioning the players for the World Cup.

Whatever is going on it worries me there seems to be a disconnect between England and the clubs in terms of player preparation. Surely it would be more sensible to build the conditioning of the players when they are with their clubs throughout the season. Making sure the club DORs ensure that their England players are physically up to England standards. Surely there can't be a massive gulf in requirements between England and the leading clubs. If there is then some sort of sensible compromise needs to be hammered out. Largely in favour of England because England are putting the money on the table.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
John Tee (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 16:09
A club has the players over weeks months and beyond...they know the nuance of how the person trains...they will even be able to gear the training for injury.
For England to be oblivious or inconsiderate is the height of folly. It is a total fail on any pro level.

The England coaches and trainers and conditioners have to know and consider how the club's have brought their players on. One side does not fit all

If England are acting to their own agenda without compliance and assistance from clubs then they need shooting..and sacking.
I can't imagine this is happening....but something is definitely wrong.
People predicted this sort of thing after the poor IA..

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 16:48
Quote:
Raggs
Slightly worse, that's mostly on the selection of Lawes at 6

Are you serious? He's been in great form for much of the past season. Nothing to do with missing Billy who Jones game revolves around, Ford who struggles to do much of anything unless it's laid out for him on a silver platter, a 13 who likewise fails in attack unless the opposition is well beaten and a starting hooker who is perhaps the second-best in his club and fourth or fifth in the Country. All too easy to find the myriad mistakes Jones has made to put us in this current position.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Nopace (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 16:56
There are no marginal gains of intensive fitness sessions over and above the loading of the previous training block unless, and I stress unless itís part of the overal fitness program. If not it could very well be detrimental. The strength and conditioning coaches know the function threshold of all of the players, so the plan is prepared around that, if eddies beasting sessions are factored into that plan then fine, if not, it isnít.

 
Re: I Wonder if the RFU are Beginning to Have Doubts About Jones' Contract Extension?
Rob Smith (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 17:03
Think the only thing he got wrong yesterday was the back row selection. This of course then affects most of the other performance areas.



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