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England
Gaz (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 17:00
Will Greenwood just said that only one side has ever managed to overturn a 21 point deficit before.

Fair play to SA, they dug deep after a horror start, first 20 showed that competition for places sharpens the mind. I thought Youngs and Ford were lively but then we reverted to a lack of game management and lacked invention. Good try by May near the end though.

WLR was class, de Klerk was a pain in the ass throughout and Itoje worked hard but gave away lots of penalties, but not sure anyone in white showed an improvement. Even Daly's inexperience at FB was shown up on occasions. Square pegs in round holes.

Hope Cips and Robson make the bench next week and Launchers is fit.

 
Re: England
09 June, 2018 17:25
Itoje was absolutely dirty - taking de Klerk out off the ball a few times before he got penalised. Why does he get away with it, so often? I thought it was poetic justice when de Klerk scored.

With the likes of Youngs, Brown and Robshaw in the team, not exactly forward looking to the World Cup.

I though Slade had a good game - maybe Englands 2nd best 13?

PS I hope WLR is ok - he had a great game, as always. If only he was English!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 17:29 by A Destruction of Wasps.

 
Re: England
Buzzboy (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 18:02
What a game! Just the wrong result.
WLR, Daly, Hughes, Shields all on the pitch at the same time too.
Brad was solid, if unspectacular, but impressive given the time heís been with the squad.
Why didnít Elliot hoof that ball off the field?!
Hughes was ok but didnít make a huge contribution.
WLR was amazing.
Some great play from both sides and what a game for a neautral.

 
Re: England
jonnydeane (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 18:26
That was like watching a wasps game.

We were poor again for a lot of that game and I don't think we had the ball at one stage for about 30mins.

Eddie's selection was risky. Putting isiekwe and Curry in was a risk, which is fine, but if then it's not going well you haul off Isiekwe and then have no back up lock. All of a sudden the Youngs, Ford, Farrell axis stalls and the option to change it is Francis, which to be honest is not going to change a thing. Back row balance again didnt seem right as we just couldn't cause any disruption when they had the ball let alone dominate a collision or compete at the breakdown to get it back .
I'm a huge fan of Robson but to be fair Spencer deserves his chance just as much, but he should have come on a lot sooner and when he did no one seemed to be at his pace or wavelength.

Also a special mention to Stuart Barnes' commentary who on numerous occasions whilst commentating on events happening in front of him for a second time on a replay still clearly managed to get it all completely wrong, e.g. off the top of my head, he said George was pinged for not rolling away for the second time even though the replay showed George already up and away, Itoje gets plaudits for his excellent tackle and steal on Dr Klerk although it was he who was penalised for a high tackle and various other moments where he just seemed to enjoy the sound of his own voice too much.

Also Ford's missed tackles never get a mention and not sure about the woman asking the questions either, really have not missed Sky's coverage.

Tension in the coaching box was an interesting watch however.

 
Re: England
09 June, 2018 18:47
So it's all down to Wales. All Northern Hemisphere sides lost. I know there's home advantage - but would expect at least Ireland and/or England to win, before today

 
Re: England
Rob Smith (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 18:53
Ford, Farrell, Slade works well ......,on the front foot. But if your pack is getting stuffed and losing the collisions Ford is not the answer. Cips/any would struggle too but slightly better which could be enough.

Biggest worry is Eddie apparently getting into a war of words with SA fans. Why does he do this .......not good.



[robsbl0g.blogspot.co.uk]
@robsmithrugby

 
Re: England
John Tee (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 18:56
Plain to see why Shields was rushed into the squad. as both 8's look far from fit. BV lasted the course but he needs too. I'm not sure Hughes should be there ...or else the altitude got to him, but that strapping looks onminous too.

I don't see much of these leaders that Jones goes on about. That game was there for the taking, IF.... we controlled the ball. I think NZ would have scored 60 plus points against that Boks defence but we are nowhere near the AB's.

The real worrying this is that we have lost the last 4 (5) and there looks no way to arrest it.
I'm not sure we can afford to keep Jones if the players can't respond to him...and they've shown no ability to do that of late.
Attack today was ok..we scored enough tries to win, but we allowed Boks to get on the front foot and they were rampant from there. Boks defence was as bad as ours but were weren't good enough to stem their rolling tide.

Faf v Youngs...hmmmm.

Farrell and Mako were ok... but our best team's players this year were blown away today. Maybe, just maybe, altitude was a bigger factor... otherwise we are in big big trouble because our best can't compete at international level for England of late...?????

 
Re: England
doctorkmt1 (IP Logged)
09 June, 2018 18:56
Quote:
A Destruction of Wasps
So it's all down to Wales. All Northern Hemisphere sides lost. I know there's home advantage - but would expect at least Ireland and/or England to win, before today

Georgia won

 
Re: England
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 09:22
Eddie is classless.
More importantly he appears clueless in terms of arresting the decline.
To go from 4 locks in the 23 in the 6n, including 3 starters, to two starters and none on the bench is odd. Voluntarily having just one lock on the pitch seemed odd. Eddie's comments after beggar belief.

The match felt predictable from min 20 and we started defending and losing the breakdown.
Itoje was found out discipline wise.

The press are suggesting en masse that the test match rugby preparation Eddie so often eulogises about is flawed wrt altitude.

For me Mike Brown is not a winger, period. He looked slow, even if he took his try well.
Elliott should be 13 or on the wing.
Ford is a luxury, going forward great, as suggested above. Going back.... not so much.

May's walkabouts I approve of, but I doubt Eddie will.
I do not think it is about the right players on the pitch, but about the right players in position.

In an ideal world we remove Eddie if we lose 6 in a row. Wonder how long Edwards will be with Wales for?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2018 09:38 by westwaleswasp.

 
Re: England
neils (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 09:25
Scotland won with a very experimental team - the sort of thing Jones should have done a year ago. Townsend trying Edinburgh players this week and Glasgow next week apparently and will mix best for final game. Resting tired players as he " knows their abilities".

 
Re: England
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 11:46
Quote:
neils
Scotland won with a very experimental team - the sort of thing Jones should have done a year ago. Townsend trying Edinburgh players this week and Glasgow next week apparently and will mix best for final game. Resting tired players as he " knows their abilities".

Eddie did that a year ago to some extent in Argentina - then went back to where he was.

 
Re: England
welsh wasp (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 11:50
Re Shaun Edwards, interesting and positive comments about how goo the Welsh defence was against Argentina.
And, putting aside my Welsh perspective as well as my surname, is EJ going to be in post for the RWC? England seem to have gone backwards this year. Not much time to improve things.

 
Re: England
John Tee (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 12:08
There is your one name in the hat. I mentioned that a decision on Jones may need to be considered if we lose 3-0. People are saying we are stuck with Jones but I think the Rfu has the money to buy out people...
So Edwards would be a top pick.

I think a thorough review of the situation should be undertaken, if we have a poor tour.
The current situation looks very dodgy indeed if Jones can't get the players to play for him.
I'm not sure the latter is true but someone near the England camp...ie, Rfu, should certainly know.

I think the question is getting very serious...this close to the RWC..

 
Re: England
Nigel Med (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 12:18
For me the biggest problem seems to be Gustard. I don't know whether he has lost interest since accepting the Quins DoR post or whether he has lost the respect of the team but the defensive organisation against the Boks was just as poor as it was against the Barbarians. Given his was the blueprint for the Sarries defence it is baffling how poor England were without the ball.

Look at how well Sarries stifled Chiefs in the Premiership final; right up in their face as soon as the ball left the ruck, didn't try any heroics at the breakdown, let them go endlessly sideways, soaking up the tackles enough to prevent them getting over the gain line and waited patiently until they made a mistake. England by contrast sat back and let the SA backline run at them. When that backline gets quick ball from Faf DeKlerk and includes WLR you're asking to leak tries and sure enough, that's what happened.

Coupled with the pack being staggeringly ineffective at everything except giving away silly penalties I'm actually amazed that England got within a score.

It was indeed like watching Wasps, England defended like us and SA attacked like us!

 
Re: England
11 June, 2018 12:31
England were great for 20 mins, poor for 55 mins and okay for final 5 mins.

As good as South Africa were when they got back into the game, we made easy mistakes or gave away soft penalties that took the game away from us.

Sadly as much as England will hopefully improve in the next test, you've got to think South Africa will too. I see they've called up Brits to their squad, interesting considering he's retired.



If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

 
Re: England
Nomad_Wasp (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 13:36
Brown scored a great try but made some awful mistakes in defence. Elliot also had a bit of a shocker. I thought Shields was pretty mundane, actually. I just don't understand why Isiekwe was taken off - he's the quickest back 5 forward in the England squad.

 
Re: England
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 13:45
Quote:
Nigel Med
For me the biggest problem seems to be Gustard. I don't know whether he has lost interest since accepting the Quins DoR post or whether he has lost the respect of the team but the defensive organisation against the Boks was just as poor as it was against the Barbarians. Given his was the blueprint for the Sarries defence it is baffling how poor England were without the ball.
Look at how well Sarries stifled Chiefs in the Premiership final; right up in their face as soon as the ball left the ruck, didn't try any heroics at the breakdown, let them go endlessly sideways, soaking up the tackles enough to prevent them getting over the gain line and waited patiently until they made a mistake. England by contrast sat back and let the SA backline run at them. When that backline gets quick ball from Faf DeKlerk and includes WLR you're asking to leak tries and sure enough, that's what happened.

Coupled with the pack being staggeringly ineffective at everything except giving away silly penalties I'm actually amazed that England got within a score.

It was indeed like watching Wasps, England defended like us and SA attacked like us!

I suppose it depends on how much input he is actually allowed.....

Wasps defend better than that - England were gifted three tries by a back three who probably only met a couple of weeks ago, the wingers on first cap and WLR tearing his hair out. The SA's inexperience was obvious everywhere - at the end of the first half, they got the ball and tried to be clever. It was over 40mins, the guy with the ball should run towards any touch line. Got pinged, 3 points England.

SA were low on caps in the backs, it wasn't far from England's best/regular backline, Watson excepted and loads of caps, yet defended like they had never met

Something is surely wrong?

 
Re: England
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 16:42
There is clearly something rotten in the state of Jones' England.
Look at Wales' 12 months... Discovered a new back row-they can now field two fantastic ones for anyone who is counting-developed new players in some positions, game plan has evolved from the Roberts crash ball and men round the corner. It has not evolved much, but it has evolved and they look closer to an all court game.

Scotland have clearly come on, although they are not the same team away, and they clearly have implosion issues still, but when at their best can win matches with a high tempo multi faceted game.

England by comparison.... squandered opportunities with zero squad development in AIs or 6n, classless coach. Question marks over the training, selection looking as bad as under Lancaster, and previous strengths such as the coaches mental strength to give someone the hook after half an hour or unorthodox approach to players' club positions or squad selection now looking less than impressive. Turns out the best shape for wheels is round after all, and not square as Eddie got away with in 2017.


Fwiw Ireland have not developed one iota in terms of game plan, and I fear they could also do an Eddie Jones England if they are not careful. It is easy to stand still and they too will need to develop more answers, rather like Chiefs in the AP.

 
Re: England
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 16:44
Just something I've noticed is posters here and elsewhere have divided quite starkly in terms of their view of England

There are quire a few that say:

"Its only a loss by 3 points at a hard venue to win" which makes me wonder if they were watching the same game as me, as if just a little tinkering and everything would be ok.


There are others, who question if Eddie has lost the plot and needs the team to perform and soon
Though they do get called Eddie haters without much justification IMO

Personally, I've been worried by England's performances post the 2016 AI's if I am honest and the recent string of results are more representative of England performance levels and I think we're in a bit of trouble not far out from the RWC not unconnected with confused thinking, selection and training.

Thoughts?

 
Re: England
FishingWasp (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 17:20
Not noticed this elsewhere on this thread, and maybe I've missed something, but why were England staying/training in Umshlanga (probably spelt wrongly, but a lovely place), which is at sea level, near Durban - indeed on the beach - when the first two games are at altitude?

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