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England Fullback
HC Wasp (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 19:41
In the absence of rugby chat, just a thought about England selection. Liam Williams (who should know a bit about this) regards Alex Goode as the best fullback he has ever played with.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

This includes British Lion Leigh Halfpenny.

Why is AG so far down the England pecking order (not just under EJ)?

 
Re: England Fullback
coddy (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 19:46
The exact same question can be asked with regards Wade, sometimes in life when your face doesn't fit certain opportunities don't arise. It's certainly not down to playing ability that's for sure.

 
Re: England Fullback
backdoc (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 20:01
So Williams, who keeps Goode out of the Sarries side [sometimes], thinks Goode is the best full-back he has played with.

That would be a declared conflict of interest in any other sphere of activity.

 
Re: England Fullback
StevieWasp (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 08:21
Regardless of whether he is or isn't the best full back around is debatable.
It's just a shame that he hasn't had a recent opportunity to show what he can do for England.

Really it's only his pace that is seen as a weakness, and we currently have Mike brown who also isn't the quickest and who prefers contact to passing.

I think it's been a case that Brown's safety first approach is what England have wanted.
Mistakes at 15 often lead to tries. Mike brown makes very few mistakes and therefore concedes few points.

 
Re: England Fullback
Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 08:38
He's won 21 England caps so not in nearly the same category as Wade/Robson etc. He had a run and never really impressed regularly enough. Has he deserved another shot? Probably, especially with Brown's limitations. But that's not the same as never being given an opportunity.

As an aside, I think England, and in particular English media, are too quick to write off young talent after a bad game or two for England. Play badly at age 22 and no matter how good you are at age 27 you'll never shake off that "not good enough for internationals" tag.

 
Re: England Fullback
Gaz (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 10:35
AG is a better all-round FB than Elliot Daly, who is not even the best English full-back at his club.

But EJ is untouchable and he knows best of course ...

 
Re: England Fullback
John Tee (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 10:39
Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
He's won 21 England caps so not in nearly the same category as Wade/Robson etc. He had a run and never really impressed regularly enough. Has he deserved another shot? Probably, especially with Brown's limitations. But that's not the same as never being given an opportunity.
As an aside, I think England, and in particular English media, are too quick to write off young talent after a bad game or two for England. Play badly at age 22 and no matter how good you are at age 27 you'll never shake off that "not good enough for internationals" tag.

Yep, agree. I don't think he convinces up a level but would agree he deserved a chance. Too late now unless Brown gets a long term injury.

 
Re: England Fullback
mike909 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 11:37
Quote:
Gaz
AG is a better all-round FB than Elliot Daly, who is not even the best English full-back at his club.
But EJ is untouchable and he knows best of course ...

This is actually the more interesting discussion point. As an aside, its not like AG played FB in a win vs the ABs of course....but in terms of England FBs, EJ doesn't seem to know what he wants, or its changed over time

On 1014.com, one article has suggested England in the third test especially, played a more Wasps style of pods and the like with the aim of (like Wasps) of outflanking the opposition and making more clean breaks. Wasps are top of that stat!

The main problem is that Wasps excellent attack, often off first phase relied upon WLR and Danny to construct and also having a better back three than England with Wade and ED and WLR to make the most of those breaks. Its a complex system and one which may or may not transfer to England

If it is to transfer, then for me that puts pressure on a number of regulars. Danny ought to start in the AI's, but then who at FB? Watson? Daly? (Brown doesn't really fit with a Wasps style attack) and then who at wing?

I don't know (I'm just an old prop...) but my gut feel is ED is NOT going to get game time at 15 for Wasps, Watson will play FB for Bath and with Nowell fit and May firing, you have a decent back three. (Obviously stronger with Wade...but ain't going to happen)

To access that back three in those channels like we do, you do need a 12 with good hands (or bulk) and pace at 13. That's where, for me, it starts to get more interesting. OF appears undroppable, and he is neither the soft hands required or the bulldozer 12 that creates space.

The AI's will be v interesting

Wasps will have a lot more options with the new players

 
Re: England Fullback
Beasties (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 12:29
Quote:
StevieWasp
Regardless of whether he is or isn't the best full back around is debatable.
It's just a shame that he hasn't had a recent opportunity to show what he can do for England.

Really it's only his pace that is seen as a weakness, and we currently have Mike brown who also isn't the quickest and who prefers contact to passing.

I think it's been a case that Brown's safety first approach is what England have wanted.
Mistakes at 15 often lead to tries. Mike brown makes very few mistakes and therefore concedes few points.
Whilst recognising that Goode is very very good in certain aspects of FB play, to say that pace is his only weakness is stretching it a bit. He is a weak tackler as far as FBs go. Also, whilst his positioning under the high ball is second to none he is poor when being actually challenged for high balls. These three weaknesses together make him a player I wouldn't want at FB for Eng.

Now, if others are prepared to accept these weaknesses just to utilise his other takents then that's fair enough. We all want different things in different positions. I'm nailing my colours to the Josh Lewsey mast here, my favourite FB for Eng. I expect others will argue for wee Jason, it's just I'm happy with him on a wing alongside Lewsey.

One other factor to bear in mind is that Goode plays for Sarries, and that alone makes it an easy ride. You have to then say well let's see him for Eng and see how he goes. Well we have seen him for Eng (21 caps apparently) and he hasn't impressed, I think that provides evidence that he can't cut it at int'l level. Nothing to see here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/07/2018 12:31 by Beasties.

 
Re: England Fullback
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 14:17
Goode plays with a smile on his face, seems in interviews to be quiet and thoughtful.
Brown does not.
Whatever limitations Goode has, compared to Brown, pace does not come into it as both are slow by back 3 standards. How many moves has Brown butchered over the years? Slow, poor awareness of when to pass and when not to, limited footwork. Better under a high ball maybe. What good is being a good tackler if people are skinning you and you get nowhere near them?

Probably too late for AG now, he was unfortunate that Brown had a purple patch that kept him in the team for years after, partly because Eddie likes angry leaders.
Still if England lose to the Boks and NZ this autumn it may not matter much longer who Eddie likes.

 
Re: England Fullback
Phillywasp (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 18:15
The term that Lancaster liked to use was "credit in the bank." EJ seems to subscribe to the same system - and I do get where they're both coming from.

But with both of them, they gave players far longer (far more credit) than I would have done.

Ben Youngs has one good England game in five (some would say more, some would say less). That keeps him in the squad for the next four or five games until his next decent shift.
Jonathan Joseph scores a hatrick against Italy or Scotland every six nations and that secures his place for the next 12 months.

I reckon Brown's had two or three decent England games this season - one early in the six nations and then one (arguably two) against SAF. I reckon his stock actually rose in South Africa - especially considering he was playing out of position. Assuming he's doing well/ok for quins leading into the Autumn internationals, he would be my starting full back - BUT Goode would get the gig against Japan (at least). And if Brown was poor for quins or England, Goode might usurp him.

Unless Elliot gets some game time at 15 for wasps (and from wasps perspective I don't want him to), then he'd be low down the list to play 15 for England. For England, Daly needs to be centre or wing. Slade hardly made the shirt his own so he's got a shot there. On the wing, Ashton comes back into the reckoning - even more so if you're using Goode at 15. Daly's done nothing to deserve being dropped though - and his long distance pens can be game changing weapons.

 
Re: England Fullback
Bracken&Macken (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 18:30
Don’t buy the credit in the bank idea. A lot of England’s ‘stalwarts’ have managed to finish 5th in the 6 nations and get knocked out in the group stage of a home World Cup.

Not sure Goode can have any complaints, had 20 opportunities and didn’t really shine in any of them.

If only the likes of Wade and Robson got the chance to have 20 bites at the cherry.

 
Re: England Fullback
Shugs (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 20:16
For me Goode is an average full back who has the odd outstanding game. He's had 20 odd caps so it's not like he's been overlooked. At club level he plays as part of a dominant team which means defensively he's rarely severely tested. I also don't understand the negativity around Brown. He's s solid full back who (when not played on the wing) rarely lets England down. The worst outcome possible for me is that Jones uses Daly at 15. Not because he can't play there but because it's such a criminal waste to play him anywhere but 13.

 
Re: England Fullback
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 22:47
Brown was skinned on the wing time and again. Think Wales and Cuthbert all over again, when Lancaster tried Brown on the wing he was too slow. I don't want to point to Brown as the reason England got stuffed that day, there were many factors including the opposition playing well, but Iirc Brown never played on the wing for Lancaster again, and he even tried Manu there. In SA Brown was also too slow under Eddie. He is solid under a high ball, the best England have at that but regardless of his tackling on the wing any international winger will be delighted to see himself with Brown a few yards in from touch in open play.

I don't think Goode has had an opportunity since 2016.
For those talking about twenty caps we could say the sane about Cipriani, who has similarly been overlooked under Eddie until recently.

I don't buy the armchair ride idea either, that is true of a ten, but 15s will always find themselves under some pressure at some point and Goode is fine. Good at kicking from hand, decent footwork going forward, support play shows some good lines, good option taker going forward.

I really want to see Watson at 15, Brown offers solidity England will need a bit more because chances to score tries don't come round too often and too often Brown has failed to pass when it is on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/07/2018 22:49 by westwaleswasp.

 
Re: England Fullback
Beasties (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 06:45
Quote:
westwaleswasp

I don't buy the armchair ride idea either, that is true of a ten, but 15s will always find themselves under some pressure at some point and Goode is fine. Good at kicking from hand, decent footwork going forward, support play shows some good lines, good option taker going forward.

I really want to see Watson at 15, Brown offers solidity England will need a bit more because chances to score tries don't come round too often and too often Brown has failed to pass when it is on.
Yeah, see what you've done there is highlight his good points whilst completely ignoring what he isn't good at. I don't think anyone is arguing that he has no good points, you've missed out his positional excellence. I don't get the slagging off Brown is getting as a winger, why would any sane person play him on the wing? It's not his fault Eddie went bonkers and played him there. As a FB he's solid. He has deficiences too. The fact is we don't have a Bin Smuff or WLR so Brown it is. Unless Watson eventually makes the shirt his own, or Daly is forced in there. I have reservations about both personally.

 
Re: England Fullback
CB Wasp (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 08:49
Maybe Quinns fans can tell us better, but I can only believe that Mike Brown had some total disasters when passing early in his career and has the 'yips' whenever he holds the ball now. Maybe he threw a few interception passes and it haunted him so he just cannot let the ball go! Maybe hypnotism would help him?

 
Re: England Fullback
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 09:05
Brown on the wing is discussed because of one of the above comments by Pillywasp, where there was a reference to him being played out if position and doing well in SA and his stock rising as a result of the tour. I think he was horribly exposed defensively and thus did not do well, hence the discussion.
Both Brown and Goode have deficiencies, but for my money Brown has been pretty poor since the WC and should have been dropped.

 
Re: England Fullback
StevieWasp (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 09:23
It really comes down to what England want from their fullback.

If they view the fullback as the last line of defence, then I can see that they want a total safety first approach. That is Mike Brown. Good positioning, great pair of hands, rarely flustered and not scared to make a tackle. Going forwards, he looks for contact rather than pass, which again is a safety first approach.

If England want a more rounded fullback who can distribute and become part of the attack, then they need to look elsewhere.
Goode is an excellent distributor for a fullback so can provide genuine options to a scrum half. His pace means that he won't run around defenders like WlR, but he often runs intelligent lines which can be useful when there's not a lot of space and can pass when required. When the pressure's on and you need a no mistakes 15, you'd still want Mike Brown as the last line.
Watson will be an interesting option. He's got genuine pace, and experience of international rugby. He can join any attack and is a useful finisher if it opens up in front of him. Is he solid enough under the high ball or as the last man standing? Hopefully he'll get a chance to prove it.
Daly is the wild card. He's got everything you would want from a fullback going forwards. He has real pace, he has good vision, he can beat a man, and he can distribute well as well. He also has an "edge" to him, and international / Lions experience so is likely to handle the pressure well. Unfortunately, he has next to no experience at fullback and is unlikely to play there for Wasps. When the pressures on, will his positional awareness be good enough and with chasers running at him, can he take the high ball safely enough. I think we have genuine full backs who should be given a chance first, but it looks like Daly's all round play is going to push him up the queue.


Given that Daly, Watson and Brown are all currently in the squad, I just don't see that Goode will get another opportunity unless there's a lot of injuries (which is always likely). However, even in that scenario there's a good chance that Eddie will already be eyeing up the next 19 year old sensation.

 
Re: England Fullback
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 10:02
Daly has experience at FB for us.... and it was not a stellar success. Would be good to see him at 13.

 
Re: England Fullback
StevieWasp (IP Logged)
18 July, 2018 10:19
Quote:
westwaleswasp
Daly has experience at FB for us.... and it was not a stellar success. Would be good to see him at 13.

True, but how old was he then?
At that time, he still relied almost solely on his outside arc to beat his opposite man.
He's become a far more complete player since then, so I can understand why coaches would see something in him that would suggest he could move to other positions seamlessly.

I think that going forwards, he'd be almost as useful for England as WlR is for us, but I just haven't seen enough recently to feel that he can perform the primary role of a fullback, particularly at international level.

Given that he's an international and Lions winger, and given that lots of Wasps fans feel that he's an even better outside centre, it would seem a big risk to lose that and play him at 15.


It may be one of those gambles that Eddie lives or dies by.

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