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Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Heathen (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 11:07

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Rob Smith (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 13:00
Think the laws already exist but are seldom applied. If you enter the ruck the player should make genuine attempt to bind. That opens the clear out players shoulders, lessens the impact as the impact risk to them is increased. So basically they need to take more care.



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Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Spikey910 (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 13:28
It's a problem for the game as in the case of someone crouched low over the ball jackaling, it's difficult to attempt to clear out safely. They present such a limited profile, most of their body can be obstructed by the tackled player and if they're bent low you can't target to hit waist or chest, you're pretty much left with head and shoulders.Brad says leading with the shoulder on a clean-out has to be eradicated, but I'm not sure what else you can lead with?

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
John Tee (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 13:48
If you applied the bind element of the rule with more vigour I think that in itself would be much safer.
You couldn't throw yourself to hit or knock the player off because you didn't get close to a bind...
Peno count much higher and job done, Imo..?

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Spikey910 (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 14:03
Yes that would help avoid dangerous no arms shoulder barges but they usually come from the side anyway, what if a single jackler is crouched low with a straight back and you don't come in from the side, where do you target that avoids any head contact?

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
NellyWellyWaspy (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 14:18
And the other issue is that said clearout usually happens from the side of the ruck, if indeed the ruck has formed at that point.

I much preferred the way this same scenario was refereed in the sevens. Tackled player goes down, jackal comes in. As soon as his hands are on the ball, if he is not challenged extremely quickly, AND the tackled player still does not release, penalty.

Giving a side 10-20 seconds to clear the jackal is ridiculous.

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Just (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 14:24
The other aspect to the ruck that frustrates me at the moment is the way that some teams, Exeter are a prime example but not alone, they are just very good at it, go straight off their feet effectively sealing off the ball and are at an angle that is impossible to clear out or compete but there is no sanction

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
mike909 (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 15:33
You're correct - the lack of sanction is the problem, it provides incentives for teams to risk going off feet.

Watch a couple of Mitre 10 games - I've been watching hoping Jacob U gets a game - and their breakdown is wildly safer as tackle is called early, the players ruck more than jackal and if they have a go, the window for a turnover with hands (as opposed to rucking) is very narrow - so much more rarely used.

The average Mitre 10 ref would have several Prem back row players on yellow in no time.

But the lack of flopping, torpedoes, bashing players makes for a less dangerous game and quicker ball - a win/win for me at least

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Spikey910 (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 17:17
Quote:
mike909
You're correct - the lack of sanction is the problem, it provides incentives for teams to risk going off feet.
Watch a couple of Mitre 10 games - I've been watching hoping Jacob U gets a game - and their breakdown is wildly safer as tackle is called early, the players ruck more than jackal and if they have a go, the window for a turnover with hands (as opposed to rucking) is very narrow - so much more rarely used.

The average Mitre 10 ref would have several Prem back row players on yellow in no time.

But the lack of flopping, torpedoes, bashing players makes for a less dangerous game and quicker ball - a win/win for me at least

That's interesting, and does sound a better approach. There's lots of talk in the NH about creating a proper contest for the ball, but seems how we try and ensure that contest happens is wrong. I also assume then that referees are stricter on an early release by the tackled player?

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
mike909 (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 19:58
Its quite a shock to watch. The last Auckland game, you could usually count to three seconds from the tackled player hitting the ground/tackle being called to the ball being in the SH's hands.

Even the more competitive games at the breakdown, it was more often within 4 or 5 seconds

The tackle seems more one up, the chance to use hands is a narrow window and the players appear to drive at a higher vertical height over the ball, if competing.

Worth looking at a game - make sure I'm not seeing what I want to see. But for me the games have more movement and rather less "running into traffic". You can see why the AB's number 8 (for instance) is leaner than you'd generally see in the NH/Prem.

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
StevieWasp (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 20:09
Isn't this a result of rucking and general use of the boot being heavily monitored in the premiership?

It's a risky proposition to use your boot anywhere near a player on the ground and therefore it's very rare to see any genuine rucking at all.
Without rucking, it's very hard to make the ball available quickly

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Heathen (IP Logged)
13 September, 2018 20:50
Quote:
mike909
Its quite a shock to watch. The last Auckland game, you could usually count to three seconds from the tackled player hitting the ground/tackle being called to the ball being in the SH's hands.
Even the more competitive games at the breakdown, it was more often within 4 or 5 seconds

The tackle seems more one up, the chance to use hands is a narrow window and the players appear to drive at a higher vertical height over the ball, if competing.

Worth looking at a game - make sure I'm not seeing what I want to see. But for me the games have more movement and rather less "running into traffic". You can see why the AB's number 8 (for instance) is leaner than you'd generally see in the NH/Prem.

The culture in NZ is very different. Want the ball in the wingers hand within 5 phases is the mantra. I posted this before but an ex Wasps Junior Academy player is now in NZ. He plays back row. The gym culture has a much lower priority. Zak lost 8 kgs preseason because the focus was so much more on skills and movement, not piling on the kgs. He is currently at the NZ regional U19s competition. He has played in two games and says that the skill sets on display are are far superior to those on display in the NH.

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
mike909 (IP Logged)
14 September, 2018 07:45
Can't deny any of that, but its predicated in the Prem on the reffing that allows such a "contest" at the breakdown.

Surely we need to have a two strand attack on this - firstly the refs need to change how the Prem especially is reffed, and teams need to have some more ambition to get the ball wide. The first would stop rewarding bulky players flopping on the ground and the second, would, as you suggesting NZ, reward leaner players?

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
mike909 (IP Logged)
14 September, 2018 07:47
I think its worth a look at some games in NZ - they are rucking, but no one is lying around the ball, so the feet issue is minimised.

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
John Tee (IP Logged)
14 September, 2018 10:49
I've said for ages that smaller lighter players could reduce injuries.
Make anyone have to play 80 mins and you'd decide if the extra timber was worth it if you couldn't move in the 70th minute and backs were running riot through the holes tired knackered players may leave.
Open faster game...?

Emptying a bench on 8 players...in theory... On 50 min mean some players could train to only play 50...
And that happens now.
Many front rows are changed after that time...

 
Re: Ex Wasps calls for greater protection at the breakdown.
Nigel Med (IP Logged)
14 September, 2018 12:36
Referees just have to enforce the laws that already exist!!!! What is commonly referred to as a clear-out at a ruck is illegal. It's a no-arms tackle- which is illegal, and the player is flying off their feet, also illegal. They're failing to bind at a ruck, also illegal, take your pick...

If you simply vigorously enforce staying on your feet at the tackle you have both made the game safer and reintroduced a fair challenge for the ball at the breakdown. Win-win.

We are not talking about low level amateur rugby players who might not have the fitness to say on their feet for 80 minutes, there are super-fit athletes, if they're going off their feet to protect the ball it's because they have been coached to do so. Easy to change.


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