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Boring Boring Rugby
BdeB (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 14:27
Lifted out of the Dai Out? Thread because I think it is an interesting topic in its own right as well as touching on the ringfencing issue:

I think Rugby is a bit boring at the moment. There will always be the physical confrontation which is compelling and of course champion teams will always be streetwise and efficient but when those are the primary requirements of a winning team you have a boring sport.

The laws need interpreting so the best teams have to play more exciting rugby or less cynical rugby or that different styles of rugby can lead to winning. What makes for the best spectacle is when two teams with contrasting styles (Tigers and Wasps 10 years ago) have equal chance of winning a game or a championship. if the laws favour one style over another you narrow the sport and if that preferred style is based on efficiency then it is a narrow boring sport.

I think this is demonstrated by Nigel Owens reffing. He is a bit of an outlier in his interpretation of the laws, liking it quite loose, which means if you have two equal teams with the same style you get great games and he looks the best ref in the world, but if you have contrasting styles then his refing favours one team far more than another and he looks like an unfair ref. (it happens his style always favours the Irish style of playing).

I think Ringfencing would allow teams to develop and try out different styles to see if something new works. The fear of relegation means teams default back to a safe style to ensure wins. if excitement is generated by fear of what is at stake off the pitch then keep relegation, if it is generated by risk on the pitch and by the conflict between different styles then ringfence the league and let teams try something different. The causal fan/new fan will be attracted by a great game not by season long tension.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Gaz (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 14:52
Wasps tried a different approach a couple of seasons ago, finished first in the league and very nearly won the final. And that was without ring-fencing so that would suggest that other things need to change before we see Wasps and Scarlets style teams pepper the premiership.

Of course, we seem to have reverted back from that slightly for whatever reason so there is always a counter argument.

I said it slightly tongue in cheek during the build up to the final, but making a semi-serious point, that Wasps need to win the final for the good of English rugby, to stop it from being dominated by more obdurate styles, and to show that attacking rugby can get success. Alas it did not happen, perhaps that is why we are more circumspect these days.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Rowdy (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 16:00
Have to agree with this...

Regardless of how Wasps play and unfortunately we ain't what we were 2016/17 I think the powers that be need to take a fundamental looks the laws and the way the game is now refereed.

For example, currently the scrum has become much less of a method of restarting play and much more of a penalty generating machine for some teams. Decline the 3 points, kick to touch and drive over for the almost certain try...I'm not criticizing the teams that do this, it is a very effecient way of accumulating points but do we really want to watch games where the majority of tries are scored by forwards driving over from 2 metres or the sort of tries Ollie Thorley is and Christain Wade used to score...I know there's room for both but I'd rather see less of the former.

Couple of points here....firstly the refereeing

Start by ensuring the ball is put into the scrum straight. It really is becoming Rugby League-esque now with feeding straight to the second row. The only incentive for the defending team to get a shove-on is that they may win a penalty if the opposing side collapses - when was the last time anyone actually saw a scrum won cleanly against the head.

Secondly, stop giving so many penalties to the dominant side at the scrum. Once a side has control of the ball, use it....Nigel Owens generally is fairly good (ie.lenient) on this..if one side is getting mullered in the scrum why does it always result in a penalty, you don't get penalised for having a sh*te lineout for example...

Lastly, maybe the laws need looking at re: the driving maul. For example, why not allow a defender to enter from the side provided he is behind the ball or perhaps allow it to be deliberately bought down.

I'm just a paying punter and they may well be perfectly valid reasons why these changes cannot be applied (doesn't excuse putting the ball in straight though....) but if the laws made it more difficult to score points from scrums/penalties/driving mauls then teams might be encouraged to engage in a bit more open play.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
bald.paul.101 (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 16:45
I have seen nothing other than wishfull thinking that suggests ring fencing will mean more exciting rugby.

as for changing the rules, how about enforcing some of the ones that are already there first?

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Spikey910 (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 17:17
Good shout BdeB, I agree with you and also find a lot of rugby boring and formulaic these days. I really can't be bothered to watch the likes of Exeter or Munster where winning a technical scrum penalty on half way often directly results in 5-7 points following a decent kick to the corner and a line out drive. I don't doubt the skill but it becomes inevitable and pretty tedious. Even notwithstanding that scenario, many games simply revert to multiple phases of trying to crash through a rugby league style strung out defence as sides under-resource the breakdown.

So, like Rowdy, I think the laws or their application need looking at, although I'm less bothered about crooked feeds as although they look bad, I don't see them actually having much impact.

As Gaz says, Wasps aren't having the success of two years ago but I would say that we still try to play good rugby and our instincts are still to attack and take risks. Having a decent ref doe shelp, but I don't think good refereeing on its own guarantees a good game. Even Nigel Owens needs 2 sides both willing to play to make a good contest, recently shown well by us and Toulouse.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Bracken&Macken (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 17:39
I personally think the problem starts with the officiating, quite frankly there is no reward for playing high paced expansive rugby as the officials let far too much rubbish go unpunished.

Why play a wide game when odds are when you get quick ball in the wide channel the opposition will lye on it, have multiple attempts at playing the ball onthe floor and most likely hold the 9 for a period of time and see no punishment whatsoever.

Also expansive rugby is an unnecessary risk, as certain teams have proven you can win a lot of games by playing one out rugby, the first man falling off his feet to seal the ball off and repeating until you score. This style of play should result In a high amount of turnovers and penalties. Instead the officiating allows this low risk rugby to generate undeservedly high rewards.

The laws need to be implemented as they are written rather than officials deciding they will apply 3 laws today and ignore the rest.

Donít even get me started on the offside line.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Lwasp (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 18:48
Isn't it the constant rule changes that stops Rugby growing as a sport? The casual fan spends half the time with no idea what is going on. And based on some of the comments in Premiership grounds neither do a lot of the "real" fans.

Trying to change the rules to engineer a certain outcome i.e. more backs tries, fewer forwards ones, almost always has unintended consequences that need further changes to fix.

Ironically football is finally messing with its largely unchanged formula, the introduction of VAR as a major example, and the complaints are coming thick and fast.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Bracken&Macken (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 19:19
They donít need to change the rules, apply the ones that already exist correctly and the game will be in a much better place.

The Mitre competion in New Zealand is a great example of this.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
John Tee (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 19:54
For rugby fans that watch the game, there isn't much wrong and a bit of tinkering probably would be enough.
However, to attract and keep new fans, you need players who can get you on the edge of your seat.
I found myself doing exactly that with the England under age football teams competing in major finals.
So, first the game HAS to mean something...so a no from me for anything that undermines this...and second, you need to marvel at skill. A guy flopping over the line after two or three minutes of grunting, where you can't even see the ball is not attractive. Maybe, demote the points to 4 or something.
I think rugby is going to need radical thinking to attract fans and get bigger audiences....which is actually deserves.
Any team with players like Cips, WLR and Wade should be rewarded.
Great running rugby involving great hands and passing etc has to be worth more points than a 1 mtr flop.
I think forward play is very valid.. But the premium should be from exiting play. I know a goal is a goal is a goal, but rugby has to do something to grow. At the moment it is just about surviving. Clubs don't want to get relegated and other clubs don't want promotion...that can't be right in a sport in pursuit of excellence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 23:06 by John Tee.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Brumwasp (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 20:20
Pat lam had a right go at Chef's lineout tactics this week an IMO rightly so. Of course, the ref was CMK so he shouldn't have expected him to actually spot anything wrong!

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
bg (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 21:07
Quote:
Brumwasp
Pat lam had a right go at Chef's lineout tactics this week an IMO rightly so. Of course, the ref was CMK so he shouldn't have expected him to actually spot anything wrong!
[www.bbc.co.uk]

I'm not quite sure what Lam is referring to. Its not when the backs charge in to the maul from 10m back that occurs at the lineone is it? Or is he referring to some members of the lineone that step out of the lineout before the ball is thrown and move to the place they know when the ball is going to, to quickly support the jumper and move the ball to the back of the maul



Why not try the 'other' Wasps forum?
[onceawasp.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2019 21:13 by bg.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
BdeB (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 21:50
Quote:
bg
Quote:
Brumwasp
Pat lam had a right go at Chef's lineout tactics this week an IMO rightly so. Of course, the ref was CMK so he shouldn't have expected him to actually spot anything wrong!
[www.bbc.co.uk]

I'm not quite sure what Lam is referring to. Its not when the backs charge in to the maul from 10m back that occurs at the lineone is it? Or is he referring to some members of the lineone that step out of the lineout before the ball is thrown and move to the place they know when the ball is going to, to quickly support the jumper and move the ball to the back of the maul

I think he is saying the backs donít start from 10m back and join before the maul has moved from the line of the lineout.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
BdeB (IP Logged)
10 January, 2019 21:58
Still not sure how relegation makes every game mean something. There have been plenty of dead games down the seasons that have nothing riding on them when it has been certain who is going to be relegated.
You make the playoffs matter and qualifying for Europe matter and if those become out of reach you build for the next season which matters.
The six nations has no relegation but every game matters. The recent autumn internationals had no bearing on anything but had meaning real meaning. I suspect even with nothing riding on it a Tigers/Saints game would always matter or a Bath/Bristol etc

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 07:30
Very perspicacious point about Nigel.

As for rugby in general, if teams can prosper the Chief's way, time for a rule change.

The scrum feels like it is less about penalty generation than it was five years ago, but the maul.....wow, that needs a total reevaluation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2019 09:08 by westwaleswasp.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
RogerE (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 08:51
On BBC at the weekend they were saying that the Exeter forwards were getting into position for the maul before the ball was in the hands of the catcher AND the backs were rushing up to join the, yet to be formed, maul at the same time.

It was noticable at our match that on one occasion when Saints had a lineout close to our line the ref warned them, before the ball was thrown, about forming a maul too soon, and we were able to disrupt them.

Hopefully the refs will start to monitor this - but then I've always said the rolling maul with the ball held at the back is obstruction.



Roger

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Brumwasp (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 20:22
Quote:
RogerE

Hopefully the refs will start to monitor this - but then I've always said the rolling maul with the ball held at the back is obstruction.

That is a very good point.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
Andy1210 (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 21:41
Something needs to change in the Premiership because itís become dull and predictable. Itís been a nailed on Exeter v Sarries final again since the first week.

Watching one of the Premís top contenders - Glaws - being absolutely outclassed by Munster is a worrying indictment of the poor quality in the English league. The gulf in the score is about as wide as the gulf in skills. If we could have that defence coach from the Munster first team Iíd be very unhappy though.

And Iíll probably cop a load of flak for this, but the Munster 10 has absolutely outclassed Cips who has been anonymous for most of the game. Watching very closely heís played deeper than usual and not got as close to the line. Could be coming back from injury or it could be heís not too keen on an intimidation level of physicality.

Maybe the answer is to ringfence the Prem with L.Irish as an extra side and every season contract the England internationals to the RFU. They could have an agreement with the playersí clubs to pay half their salaries and guarantee availability for European competitions and a set number of prem games (injuries permitting). Scrap the prem Cup, have rest periods during internationals and free up cash. It would also discourage clubs like Sarries from signing a load of internationals and dominating the competition. There could maybe a limit on overseas internationals too.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
BdeB (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 22:00
Another victory for efficient rugby tonight.

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
jonnydeane (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 22:12
I just watched the Exeter Bristol highlights back from last week and even the highlights were boring.
Every time Exeter has the ball in the 22 I went to x8 speed just to get through all inevitable pick and goes

 
Re: Boring Boring Rugby
BdeB (IP Logged)
11 January, 2019 22:27
20+ phases is very admirable but not edge of the seat stuff. They have to make it easier for the defence to stop the recycle and easier for the attack to advance in wider channels. Here are some things I think would help:
Penalise the latcher on going to ground and sealing the ball.
Or just ban latching before any contact.
Stop the tackler being tackled.
Stop people driving beyond the ruck.
Referee the backfoot of the ruck strictly across the whole width of the pitch.

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