Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 13:01
perhaps I should address this straight to Jon R43 who seems to be the general guru on all of this.
Basic question is how does it all work for next season ? Supplementary questions are what happens is the LV winner or Amlin Cup winner comes from outside the top 6 in GP.
We should have a decent chance of HC qualification for next season as minimum outcome from this season but I feel that I should understand the position a bit more clearly.
Am I correct in thinking that if the LV or Amlin winner is in the top 6 that the 7th GP ranked team will qualify (even if it is Quins) ?
Basic question is how does it all work for next season ? Supplementary questions are what happens is the LV winner or Amlin Cup winner comes from outside the top 6 in GP.
We should have a decent chance of HC qualification for next season as minimum outcome from this season but I feel that I should understand the position a bit more clearly.
Am I correct in thinking that if the LV or Amlin winner is in the top 6 that the 7th GP ranked team will qualify (even if it is Quins) ?
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: 'Big-Al' (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 13:11
England has 6 places in the HC - but gets a 7th place if the winner of either the HC or Amlin Cup are English - even if winners of both are English there would only be 1 extra place.
Top 4 in GP are guaranteed a place as are HC winners if English, Amlin winners if English and LV winners if English.
As the only possible English winners of the HC look certain to finish in the top 4 - it is just as certain that 5th in the GP will get an HC spot.
Top 4 in GP are guaranteed a place as are HC winners if English, Amlin winners if English and LV winners if English.
As the only possible English winners of the HC look certain to finish in the top 4 - it is just as certain that 5th in the GP will get an HC spot.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:05
Thanks - Top 4 is the answer which sounds best to me.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: cheffy (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:15
Try this........
HEINEKEN CUP QUALIFICATION
From the 2009/10 season both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup winners
will qualify automatically for the following season’s Heineken Cup and will each earn an
extra Heineken Cup spot for their countries – over and above their guaranteed
allocations.
However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a
maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the
highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five
nations.
The changes mean that the Italian / Celtic League 24th Place Play-Off is no longer
required and the extra place earned by England this year, which was available to the
most successful nation from England, France or Italy, is also no longer applicable.
The 23rd and 24th Heineken Cup places will go to the nation(s) of the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup winners, with England and France capped on a maximum of
seven teams each.
So it seems likely that Saints will qualify through the GP Top 6 whether or not they win the HC.
Wasps Glos or Falcons will qualify if either win the Amlin.
Wasps looking best placed to qualify through the GP at the moment.
If an English side wins either of the cups and qualifies in the top 6 then it will fall to the highest ranked team in that country who has not qualified any other way which aside from the teams listed above is Sale, but they can't qualify if they are relegated!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 14:27 by cheffy.
HEINEKEN CUP QUALIFICATION
From the 2009/10 season both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup winners
will qualify automatically for the following season’s Heineken Cup and will each earn an
extra Heineken Cup spot for their countries – over and above their guaranteed
allocations.
However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a
maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the
highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five
nations.
The changes mean that the Italian / Celtic League 24th Place Play-Off is no longer
required and the extra place earned by England this year, which was available to the
most successful nation from England, France or Italy, is also no longer applicable.
The 23rd and 24th Heineken Cup places will go to the nation(s) of the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup winners, with England and France capped on a maximum of
seven teams each.
So it seems likely that Saints will qualify through the GP Top 6 whether or not they win the HC.
Wasps Glos or Falcons will qualify if either win the Amlin.
Wasps looking best placed to qualify through the GP at the moment.
If an English side wins either of the cups and qualifies in the top 6 then it will fall to the highest ranked team in that country who has not qualified any other way which aside from the teams listed above is Sale, but they can't qualify if they are relegated!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 14:27 by cheffy.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:27
Cheffy - does this mean that the LV qualification route has to come out of the standard 6 spots with the Amlin/HC being the additional 7th place (capped at 7 places). If there is not an English winner to Amlin/HC then there will only be 6 GP clubs in the 2010/11 HC ?
All still slightly opaque
All still slightly opaque
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: cheffy (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:28
see amended post above!!
No mention of the LV Winners being awarded HC qualification this season either.
But it does on the Anglo-Welsh site but only if the winner is an English team.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 14:33 by cheffy.
No mention of the LV Winners being awarded HC qualification this season either.
But it does on the Anglo-Welsh site but only if the winner is an English team.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 14:33 by cheffy.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: 'Big-Al' (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:45
Quote:cheffy
If an English side wins either of the cups and qualifies in the top 6 then it will fall to the highest ranked team in that country who has not qualified any other way which aside from the teams listed above is Sale, but they can't qualify if they are relegated!!
Cheffy - I don't think your interpretation is correct here - for the English qualifiers, afer the GP top 4 and various cups - places then go to the next best in the GP. The "highest ranked team that has not qualified" refers to the spare place that would be generated by HC and Amlin cup winners being from the same country - and goes to the highest ranked, not yet qualified, and not from the country that has the HC and Amlin winners.
So if French teams win both cups, then it is possible that an English club outside of qualifiying through the GP and LV could be "the club with the highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five nations"
Clear as mud!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 14:51
Next question then - who maintains the ERC ranking table ?
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 15:00
Quote:ERC site
Qualification for the Heineken Cup 2009/10
24 top flight club teams from six countries compete in the Heineken Cup.
These will include a minimum of:
France: 6 teams (selected by performance in Top 14 Championship)
England: 6 teams (selected by performance in Guinness Premiership and EDF Energy Cup)
Wales: 3 teams (selected by performance in Magners League)
Ireland 3 teams (selected by performance in Magners League)
Scotland 2 teams (selected by performance in Magners League)
Italy: 2 teams (selected by performance in Super 10 Championship)
For the 2009/10 season the 23rd Heineken Cup team will come from England.
For the 2009/10 season the 24th Heineken Cup team will come from Wales.
HEINEKEN CUP QUALIFICATION
Another significant boost for the tournament sees the winner of the Amlin Challenge
Cup, who will continue to qualify for the following season’s Heineken Cup, also earn an
additional Heineken Cup spot for the country of the winner.
From the 2009/10 season both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup winners
will qualify automatically for the following season’s Heineken Cup and will each earn an
extra Heineken Cup spot for their countries – over and above their guaranteed
allocations.
However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a
maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the
highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five
nations.
The changes mean that the Italian / Celtic League 24th Place Play-Off is no longer
required and the extra place earned by England this year, which was available to the
most successful nation from England, France or Italy, is also no longer applicable.
Teams will continue to qualify through their domestic tournaments with each nation
having the following number of automatic places:
England and France – 6 each
Wales and Ireland – 3 each
Scotland and Italy – 2 each
The 23rd and 24th Heineken Cup places will go to the nation(s) of the Heineken Cup and
Amlin Challenge Cup winners, with England and France capped on a maximum of
seven teams each.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 15:13
I think that what all of this means is that top 4 GP places are definitely in. Plus winner of EDF/LV cup (3 out of 4 in SF are GP teams) plus next qualified in GP (ie 5th) to generate standard 6 slots. The 7th place would arise from either Amlin winner or HC winner (latter not likely with Northampton away to Munster).
I think that I want Cardiff to beat Gloucester but then lose to Northampton or Sarries in the final of the LV cup. Cardiff also to beat Newcastle in the Amlin and Wasps to beat Gloucester.
Decent win against Sale on 28th will make things a lot easier of course. For anyone planning season ticket pricing for next season it makes sense to hang on for a few weeks long when the position will become a lot clearer.
I think that I want Cardiff to beat Gloucester but then lose to Northampton or Sarries in the final of the LV cup. Cardiff also to beat Newcastle in the Amlin and Wasps to beat Gloucester.
Decent win against Sale on 28th will make things a lot easier of course. For anyone planning season ticket pricing for next season it makes sense to hang on for a few weeks long when the position will become a lot clearer.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jamo (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 16:18
My hope come the end of the season is just for us to qualify and look forward to next season. This one has been a nightmarish slog!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 16:20
Jamo - you clearly missed out on the three years of famine that followed the Powergen in 2002 !
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 16:37
now that the ground rules are a little clearer the key dates for knowing how safe we are will be:
14th March - LV semi finals
10-12th April - HC QF.
Provided we win our next two matches against Sale and Wasps and a couple of results go our way we should have a good idea of HC requirements before the Worcester match.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 16:58 by JamesC.
14th March - LV semi finals
10-12th April - HC QF.
Provided we win our next two matches against Sale and Wasps and a couple of results go our way we should have a good idea of HC requirements before the Worcester match.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 16:58 by JamesC.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Foggy-Balla (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 16:41
As long as I have somewhere nice to go for a couple of away trips next season...
Faugh-a-Ballagh!
"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"
Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum
Faugh-a-Ballagh!
"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"
Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jamo (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 17:15
Quote:JamesC
Jamo - you clearly missed out on the three years of famine that followed the Powergen in 2002 !
I did miss that thank God!, bit before my conversion, have been a bit spoiled for choice!!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 17:26
if one had a three year season ticket one wavered from being a true believer to doubting one's own sanity at time.
I strongly believe that LI's business model is now built on regular appearances in the HC with challenges for silverware in the league. This season we have been knocked by injury more than last, or at least so it feels at present.
Having a three week break now to collect our thoughts is a good thing. I just hope that Sale are not match fitter due to their game against Wasps before 28th,
I strongly believe that LI's business model is now built on regular appearances in the HC with challenges for silverware in the league. This season we have been knocked by injury more than last, or at least so it feels at present.
Having a three week break now to collect our thoughts is a good thing. I just hope that Sale are not match fitter due to their game against Wasps before 28th,
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: AMS (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 18:02
James,
If I read the table correctly, Sale may be fairly desperate by the time they get to us. I'm hoping like heck that means they fall apart completely and let Irish play all the rugby but if they come out fighting, who knows?
If I read the table correctly, Sale may be fairly desperate by the time they get to us. I'm hoping like heck that means they fall apart completely and let Irish play all the rugby but if they come out fighting, who knows?
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 18:25
AMS - am with you on this. I certainly hope that Sale do not come and rain on our parade at the end of the month. We need the win more than they do
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: CooperMan (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 18:27
Now throw into the mix that the ERC have still to rule on the two Italian teams.
As it stands it should be first and second in the Super Ten.
Now we have the Aironi and Treviso Celtics in the ML, it is assumed that they will have the two places - a bit of a bůmmer for Padova and Rovigo in the event they earn the places after a year of hard graft.
I know that if Rugby Parma won the league I would be pěssed off if we didn't get the place - I'm sure the Roviga and Padova fans would feel the same - as would we LI supporters if a similar situation was to happen.
CooperMan
An son spajé co'l cul c'a bruséva.
As it stands it should be first and second in the Super Ten.
Now we have the Aironi and Treviso Celtics in the ML, it is assumed that they will have the two places - a bit of a bůmmer for Padova and Rovigo in the event they earn the places after a year of hard graft.
I know that if Rugby Parma won the league I would be pěssed off if we didn't get the place - I'm sure the Roviga and Padova fans would feel the same - as would we LI supporters if a similar situation was to happen.
CooperMan
An son spajé co'l cul c'a bruséva.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 18:30
e mai semplice in Italia
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jon_r43 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 March, 2010 19:16
Ok that bit all looks totally unclear to me!! odd that James' quote refers to the EDF energey cup as that doesn't exist this year.
Am also intrested in the Itallian entry in the context of yesterdays announcement as I imagine the Mangers "franchises" will be given these two places. (There needs to be a review of qualification that stops automatic qualification for Italian and Scottish sides in my view!)
but to add to the mix my table below shows the current ranking point for the pools for the draw (based on last 4 years including this season so far.)
It seems to indicate that we are likley to end up 3rd seeds this year giving us a harder pool than in previous years
unless several of the top sides "do a wasps" and don't qualify.
At present Blues, Stade, Bath and Glaws may miss out but even if they all did we could miss out as others below us could pass us if they do well in the knockout stages
Munster 26
Leicester Tigers 23
Leinster 22
Toulouse 20
London Wasps 18
Cardiff Blues 17
Biarritz 15
Stade Francais 15
Clermont Auvergne 14
Northampton 14
Ospreys 14
Bath Rugby 14
Gloucester Rugby 12
Scarlets 12
Perpignan 11
London Irish 11
Saracens 11
Sale Sharks 9
Ulster Rugby 8
Bourgoin 8
Glasgow Warriors 7
Harlequins 7
Edinburgh 6
Newcastle Falcons 6
Dragons 6
Worcester Warriors 5
Benetton Treviso 4
Brive 4
Castres Olympique 4
Connacht Rugby 3
Agen 3
Bristol Rugby 3
Toulon 2
Viadana 2
Rugby Calvisano 2
Leeds Carnegie 1
Montauban 1
Montpellier 1
Rugby Parma FC 1
Bayonne 0
Am also intrested in the Itallian entry in the context of yesterdays announcement as I imagine the Mangers "franchises" will be given these two places. (There needs to be a review of qualification that stops automatic qualification for Italian and Scottish sides in my view!)
but to add to the mix my table below shows the current ranking point for the pools for the draw (based on last 4 years including this season so far.)
It seems to indicate that we are likley to end up 3rd seeds this year giving us a harder pool than in previous years
unless several of the top sides "do a wasps" and don't qualify.
At present Blues, Stade, Bath and Glaws may miss out but even if they all did we could miss out as others below us could pass us if they do well in the knockout stages
Munster 26
Leicester Tigers 23
Leinster 22
Toulouse 20
London Wasps 18
Cardiff Blues 17
Biarritz 15
Stade Francais 15
Clermont Auvergne 14
Northampton 14
Ospreys 14
Bath Rugby 14
Gloucester Rugby 12
Scarlets 12
Perpignan 11
London Irish 11
Saracens 11
Sale Sharks 9
Ulster Rugby 8
Bourgoin 8
Glasgow Warriors 7
Harlequins 7
Edinburgh 6
Newcastle Falcons 6
Dragons 6
Worcester Warriors 5
Benetton Treviso 4
Brive 4
Castres Olympique 4
Connacht Rugby 3
Agen 3
Bristol Rugby 3
Toulon 2
Viadana 2
Rugby Calvisano 2
Leeds Carnegie 1
Montauban 1
Montpellier 1
Rugby Parma FC 1
Bayonne 0
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: MadMonk (IP Logged)
Date: 10 March, 2010 00:15
Quote:Wasn't there a French club recently that qualified for the HC and got relegated?cheffy
...which aside from the teams listed above is Sale, but they can't qualify if they are relegated!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: CooperMan (IP Logged)
Date: 10 March, 2010 07:04
Quote:Jon
(There needs to be a review of qualification that stops automatic qualification for Italian and Scottish sides in my view!)
Top 7 in the GPL and ML each, (14 teams from 24)
Top 8 in the N14 (8 from 14)
Plus LV= winners and French Cup Winners (if they have one)
(the last two places could be organised in a different way, mine is only a suggestion as we need 24 teams)
Easy.
CooperMan
An son spajé co'l cul c'a bruséva.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jon_r43 (IP Logged)
Date: 10 March, 2010 07:13
That's about what I would do but maybe reserve 1 place for an Italian, Irish, Scottish and Welsh side in the ML qualifiers in some was as it needs to be a European Comp
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: CharlieG (IP Logged)
Date: 10 March, 2010 08:45
Quote:CooperMan
Top 7 in the GPL and ML each, (14 teams from 24)
Top 8 in the N14 (8 from 14)
Plus LV= winners and French Cup Winners (if they have one)
(the last two places could be organised in a different way, mine is only a suggestion as we need 24 teams)
Why give the French a 9th place?
I would replace "Plus LV= winners and French Cup Winners" with "HC winners and ECC winners" - even if they come from the same league.
And please, none of this "England and France capped on a maximum of seven teams each"
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jamo (IP Logged)
Date: 10 March, 2010 12:49
I think they should use the Duckworth- Lewis method, sounds a bloody sight les complicated!!!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: JamesC (IP Logged)
Date: 21 March, 2010 18:54
top 6 place in GP now deffo ok for HC qualification next season - at least that's my understanding at the Amlin winner would be the additional 7th spot or 7th GP place if winner is from top 6 GP places.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: ironman (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 09:25
So can someone confirm what Saints winning the LV means?
That if Saints finish 6 or above then 6th in the GP guaranteed a HC place ?
That if Saints finish 6 or above then 6th in the GP guaranteed a HC place ?
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: ulster tom (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 10:20
Perhaps the number of teams afforded nationally should be based on the nation's performance in the 6N. It would certainly add fuel to the Club/country argument! 6 teams for 1st (+ bonus for Grnad slam), 5 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, 3 for 4th, 2 for 5th, 1 for 6th place (lost for wooden spoon). The remainder could be awarded for top place in HC the previous year, followed by runner up, winner of Super 14, GP, ML etc.
Would certainly liven things up.
Would certainly liven things up.
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: cheffy (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 13:56
When we qualify.....
Our group will be: Glasgow Cardiff & Northampton....
You heard it here first!!
Our group will be: Glasgow Cardiff & Northampton....
You heard it here first!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: ironman (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 14:08
Boo , they are all fine places to visit in their own way but I would rather be off to France and Italy thanks
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: cheffy (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 14:12
Me too!!
Can't see a weekend on the lash up the Wellingborough Road holding the same charm as Treviso or Toulouse!!
Can't see a weekend on the lash up the Wellingborough Road holding the same charm as Treviso or Toulouse!!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: Jon_r43 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 15:15
Must have an Itallian side those pools are the easiest to get out of in second place!
Re: Heineken Cup qualification 2010/11
Posted by: MadMonk (IP Logged)
Date: 22 March, 2010 15:48
Good craic too!
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