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Your centre selection
Stopsy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:19
How on earth did Tikoirotuma get to start ahead of Fowlie?

I must confess to have been prejudiced by reading your views on here but the substitution was really a big step up.

 
Re: Your centre selection
olw131 (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:27
Exactly Stopsy. I'm going to hold back on Tiks because I certainly couldn't do better than him, but Fowlie is younger, faster, came through the academy therefore Is One Of Our Own and presumably can pass a rugby ball accurately under pressure. Oh, and he can tackle.

The evidence for him to start, at least from our point of view, is overwhelming.

(also, that was a hugely improved performance, very proud of the boys today!)

 
Re: Your centre selection
Shawshank (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:28
Anyone can see that Tiks is very much short of the required standard.

His tackling makes Andy Goode look like Mickey Skinner.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Stopsy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:31
I worried at our selection and then the injuries further weakened our efforts but you were never out of it after the first quarter.

 
Re: Your centre selection
jimbo800 (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:36
Tiks is a winger who continually gets asked to do a centres job. He's just not needed at wing at the moment. I feel that maybe Tom will get a centre in the euro games to see how he gets on, if all goes well I'd iimagine we'll see him get a start depending on fergus' return date. Tiks also suffers from the Islander Syndrome, when presented with an opportunity to put in a big hit, he'll take it regardless of the impact it has on he game. More often than not it rules him out of the next few phases and he's then out of the defensive line.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Stopsy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:51
Our 13 certainly looked better against him than Fowlie.

 
Re: Your centre selection
NMB (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 00:28
On BT Sport they mentioned the coaches having to look at whoever is causing our defensive lapses and dropping them regardless of their impact in other areas of the game. This should definitely apply to tik's - he looks good when going forward but otherwise a disaster.

I got the impression they were also implying the same for BBF although I'm not sure I agree there...

 
Re: Your centre selection
Florida (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 00:31
Quote:
NMB
On BT Sport they mentioned the coaches having to look at whoever is causing our defensive lapses and dropping them regardless of their impact in other areas of the game. This should definitely apply to tik's - he looks good when going forward but otherwise a disaster.
I got the impression they were also implying the same for BBF although I'm not sure I agree there...

Lewi has missed the most tackles, maybe they mean him?

 
Re: Your centre selection
dooj106 (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 00:44
I like Tiks as a player, but he needs to be on the wing and not in the centres. As for Fowlie I have been impressed by him so far this season and long may it continue, but IMHO he needs a few more games before any judgement on him is made

Think he should start the 2 European games and see how he goes before making judgement as it was only a short while ago when he was struggling that some were saying his contract should not be renewed and he should be nowhere near the 1st team.

Today he along with the rest of the bench made a significant impact and while that is a good thing, I have noticed that on several occasions the players on bench have done well and then the next week they have started and not been as good. Then they get subbed and the players coming on do better.

The starting 15 IMHO need to start better and should set a higher standard, then when they tire the bench come on to maintain that level as the oppo tire.

 
Re: Your centre selection
PV (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 09:09
Tiks is a liability. Owen was having a field day against him on the right side in the first half, literally might as well have not been on the pitch.

 
Re: Your centre selection
GHA (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 09:41
It's almost as though winger and outside centre are two separate positions

 
Re: Your centre selection
jimbo800 (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 10:10
To be fair, Lewi didn't have a good game yesterday. Scored late but his defence was poor. Had a guy in the tackle, only to release him and end up losing thirty metres in the process.
The players don't seem to be on the same page as to what they're trying to do in the tackle. On more than one occasion we'll have two players both going high or low so they end up getting fended off or they're being left room for the offload. That confusion is causing all sorts of problems for us. The props got caught out yesterday, one leading directly to a try. The props need to be the guards on the rucks, minimal chance of one on one against the backs. They're being caught out in the midfield area creating a dog leg. The game is moving so quickly they don't have time to set up the defensive line so are being targeted by drifting backs who can pick them off like the 9 did. Danaher needs to up his game quickly. When defence is poor this consistently, the coach needs to realise what he's doing isn't working.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Blarney (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 11:05
To be fair to Lewi, Iíll wager a good number of his ďmissed tacklesĒ are despairing cover tackles after our flimsy front line has been punctured.

We are really missing Mulchrone. First choice for me would be 12. Williams 13. Mulchrone.

Agreed on Tiks being a liability. If fowlie continues as he has I may have to re-evaluate my position after slating him pre-season.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Hugo.LI (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 11:13
Reading the programme yesterday lewi has made 33 tackles and is certainly not the reason we have been conceding all our points. It's the defensive shape.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Blarney (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 11:42
Dare we consider that Dec is not up to the task. Early days for his career I know but, with the highest of stakes this season, can we afford the time it will take for him to learn?

 
Re: Your centre selection
HMRH (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 11:57
There is some right sh** talked on here at times.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Shawshank (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 12:00
We can't go all wobbly on the coaches.

Provided that they are learning from their mistakes, even if we get relegated we've got to stick with them, otherwise it's just a continuous game of musical chairs, with fresh 5 year plans from new coaches each time...

 
Re: Your centre selection
Finno (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 12:10
Quote:
HMRH
There is some right sh** talked on here at times.

(Sm22)(Sm22) agreed!!

 
Re: Your centre selection
Steelman (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 12:18
Quote:
Finno
Quote:
HMRH
There is some right sh** talked on here at times.

(Sm22)(Sm22) agreed!!

Take the sh*te out and there would be silence.......
...." I don't like it, it's too quiet ".

 
Re: Your centre selection
Blarney (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 15:07
Well at least Shawshank offered a reasoned counter-argument, unlike the usual cheap insult with nothing to back it up from HMRH.

Actually, Iím an advocate of a coaching team being given time to gel, and I think ours have a bright future ahead of them. I do wonder about maybe getting a proven expert in to consult. We have to improve and the same defensive mistakes being made 5 games in a row would suggest that change is happening slowly.

 
Re: Your centre selection
jimbo800 (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 15:31
I get the need to back the coaches and get behind the squad, without that we're not much of a club at all. At times though, some supporters are shot down for daring to be critical about coaching staff. As fans we're entitled to question things (as long as we don't get personal and vindictive). As fans though, the defensive issue that hasn't been resolved at all since the quins game will continue to get discussed. It's is lacking in any cohesion and that is down to coaching, simple as that. Coaches take the blame in the majority of sports. Nobody is calling for heads to roll but it was suggested that maybe we need a little extra help in that department.
When we concede early time and time again, it shows that training methods aren't working. It has a knock on effect with players. We've won the second half of three or four games but have lost the game entirely. I don't for a minute think we would have won them alll but games like Saints and falcons we should have been targeting LBPs and should have got them. Undying optimism also needs some common sense approach as well. Danaher has no experience at this level, get him some help to show him how experienced coaches address these issues. When we're tying to get players to sign contract extensions, it goes a long way if we're probing ourselves to be more competitive.
We can win all the second halves we want, but if there are no points at the end of it, it means nothing. I'd want Skiv more involved in the entire squad, not just the forwards. He's a winner who has played with some fantastic players and coaches. Let him use his experience. For other coaches who may need it, lets get them talking to people who can offer advice. It's a tough business and it's only fair the club matches the coaches ambitions and enthusiasm. We're lucky to have staff who love the club, that doesn't mean they don't need to make changes or need a little guidance.

A win is around the corner, I can feel it

 
Re: Your centre selection
HMRH (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 15:37
"Usual cheap insult"? Find that a bit harsh Blarney and not sure my posts fall into that camp but you are of course entitled to your opinion. In this case I didn't feel the need to expand further as I thought a succinct view of my thoughts would suffice.

 
Re: Your centre selection
bigbitty (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 15:39
Quote:
Blarney
Well at least Shawshank offered a reasoned counter-argument, unlike the usual cheap insult with nothing to back it up from HMRH.
Actually, Iím an advocate of a coaching team being given time to gel, and I think ours have a bright future ahead of them. I do wonder about maybe getting a proven expert in to consult. We have to improve and the same defensive mistakes being made 5 games in a row would suggest that change is happening slowly.

Isn't the good Doctor Venter a proven expert?

 
Re: Your centre selection
Blarney (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 17:44
I get the feeling that Venter is there more to help build the sense of togetherness, team spirit and culture. Which you can definitely see evidence of. The fact that we are finishing games so strongly shows that that spirit is there.

Maybe getting an international defence coach (Farrell?) in on a short-term basis to mentor Dec might be an option?

 
Re: Your centre selection
Margin_Walker (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 18:01
But Venter literally is an international defence coach. And no doubt a mentor for our coaching team.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Bazzo (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 18:11
My two centres would be Mulchrone at 12 and Tiks at 13.

They were our best option last year and indeed in the first game at Twickenham. Tiks does better with Fergus there. Johnny looked poor in defence to me and just had a crash ball effect when I've seen him. Tiks is not the best defender but offers way more in attack.

I don't get the Fowlie fan club, sorry. Fowlie did nought last year in the championship has not done much in the A games and has come on in two games for the last 10 mins when in truth the game is lost and the opponents have taken there foot off the gas and it is open play. He should start a game to see how he goes and the squad will need rotating anyways, I would point out also that Fowlie nearly cost us that bonus point yesterday. He had the ball in a good position down the wing, should have held on to it for recycling and he threw it blind behind him and got lucky when the tigers player failed to pick it up, bounced off his leg and we got it back. Thought JP was going to blow it up then, got very lucky. It would have finished an 8 point loss and different mood from everyone.

The person that I see struggling in defence a lot is Ben Franks. He has a new job at the other side of the scrum and seems to be struggling with quick backs. He will smash anyone who runs at him, but running round him is a different story. I agree that the system is wrong somewhere and Danaher needs to look at it, sometimes seems the pace of the game is just a step up. Think we will keep getting better as the season goes on. We could have won that game.

Would also like to point out that last week I had felt compelled to defend James Marshall when a poster called him a liability who did not run with the ball and had@#$%&distribution...... the Paice try and the Lewington try where all down to him, he might also be finding his feet defence wise but attack wise he is class. But we all have different opinions.

 
Re: Your centre selection
jekyll (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 18:40
If anyone was listening to the BT commentory, Austin Healey was spot on when he said that losing MUlchrone and Coman, who are our two defensive lynchpins, to injuries is the difference to having a good defence and our present predicament.

Tiks is a winger and doesnt create the space that a fully fledged centre should produce for his winger. His tackling is brutal only when the opposition player has passed the ball ie Marcus Smith at Twickenham and a couple of times yesterday. When they run at him he is normally a turnstile. Due to injuries Kennedy is having to play him out of postion, but I have said since the end of last season that we were short on numbers for out and out centres and so it is proving.
I would play Hearn at outside centre at the moment but hopefully Fowlie can get some game time during the European phase and prove he can step up to start in the Premiership.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Hugo.LI (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 18:56
Williams poor in defence? He was the only positive in the defeat to northampton and is certainly not poor in defence. Whilst he and mulchrone are out injured I'd have tonks and fowlie in midfield and then Williams and mulchrone when they are back. Hearn unfortunately is also a bit of a liability in defence.
Regarding fowlie almost costing us the bonus point, he was about to go into touch so throwing the ball back inside was the right option

 
Re: Your centre selection
Bazzo (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 19:53
Quote:
Hugo.LI
Williams poor in defence? He was the only positive in the defeat to northampton and is certainly not poor in defence. Whilst he and mulchrone are out injured I'd have tonks and fowlie in midfield and then Williams and mulchrone when they are back. Hearn unfortunately is also a bit of a liability in defence.
Regarding fowlie almost costing us the bonus point, he was about to go into touch so throwing the ball back inside was the right option

All entitled to our opinion as I said. Johnny is a great young player, but v Falcons he let people flood through his channel. He rushed out of his line a few times to make the big hit v saints ala Tiks, but Tiks gets hammered for it. He did carry the ball well into contact and that was his best asset no doubt. I completely agree that Fowlie was about to go into touch and had no option but to throw it back behind him. But he shouldn't have been going into touch should he? He needed to step inside and recycle. It was the right option, because it was the only one and he got lucky ! Could just as easily been an intercept and a length of the pitch bonus point try for them.

 
Re: Your centre selection
olw131 (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 21:11
Quote:
Hugo.LI
Williams poor in defence? He was the only positive in the defeat to northampton and is certainly not poor in defence. Whilst he and mulchrone are out injured I'd have tonks and fowlie in midfield and then Williams and mulchrone when they are back. Hearn unfortunately is also a bit of a liability in defence.
Regarding fowlie almost costing us the bonus point, he was about to go into touch so throwing the ball back inside was the right option

Hearn, to be fair to him, is at least a specialist centre. OK, he has gone up in my estimations after his try straight off the bat in last season's home leg of final. But he's got a bit of pace, and is a pretty solid option.

 
Re: Your centre selection
tatthecraic2 (IP Logged)
09 October, 2017 17:21
My centre selection is Mapasua and Elvis...

If only...

 
Re: Your centre selection
Shawshank (IP Logged)
09 October, 2017 18:40
Bazzo - are you by chance related to Mr T...?

Your cheerleading for him is becoming just a tad desperate, and your criticism of young Tom, who is LI through and through, is becoming frankly quite unpleasant.

 
Re: Your centre selection
Bazzo (IP Logged)
10 October, 2017 00:09
Quote:
Shawshank
Bazzo - are you by chance related to Mr T...?
Your cheerleading for him is becoming just a tad desperate, and your criticism of young Tom, who is LI through and through, is becoming frankly quite unpleasant.

From the king of unpleasant posters, i will just smile at that one...

So do you still think that Marshall does not run with the ball and is a liability?

 
Re: Your centre selection
Despriarno (IP Logged)
11 October, 2017 19:26
Quote:
tatthecraic2
My centre selection is Mapasua and Elvis...
If only...

You took the words for out of my mouth


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