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Why do we all get so frustrated?
Finno (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 11:15
It's a good question, that I've been trying to answer for myself this morning.

The facts are, we are never going to be a Sarries, or any of the wealthier clubs. We'll always be shopping in the ' bargain basket' for players and we're always going to be open to losing our best players.

So what can we be? The best we can by 'punching above our weight' a la Chiefs a few years ago. Punching above your weight has nothing to do with the physical but everything to do with the mental. It's all about mental toughness, an abhorrence about losing, being tactically astute and Premiership savvy. It's about working the ref out early and using it to our advantage, it's about working the ref...being in his ear etc. I could go on...

Yesterday was a perfect example of a side that had been beaten on just about every stat, refusing to roll over and be beaten, in a competition that nobody is supposed to care about. They may have been second string but they had all the above and an absolute determination not to lose..in a nothing competition. It's called a winning mentality. If we'd half that yesterday, we'd have won easily.

I think if we really punched above our weight weekly(and I'm not talking about just trying hard) and we lost, then I think most of us would just be disappointed and not frustrated,

Getting that mental toughness, is cultural thing, that must become part of everything we do. I thought Kendo made a telling comment at the LISC AGM, about reviewing the previous match, they concentrate on the positives and take the odd one aside to point out their mistakes. That ethos may well be laudable for team building, togetherness and gently moving toward, a la developing underage players, but I'm not sure it 'cuts it' when dealing with seasoned professional players in the cut throat business that is Premiership rugby. I've often thought since we started to slide, that we needed a Cockers in charge, and look what he's starting to achieve at Edinburgh! We missed a trick there!

I'm trying to be level headed and objective here,and I love our club, but maybe the club is happy to settle for mediocrity, as it seems many of our fellow supporters are!

Ah well, hey ho, maybe I just need to get more masochist about supporting LI!

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
peejay (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 11:48
Good post Finno,
I'm not on the training ground but suspect ex players struggle to become the ruthless coach/manager that is required of top sides. I doubt Baxter/Cockerill/Jones/Diamond etc enjoy a pint and a joke with the players on a regular basis.
I'd rather see us signing players on the fringes of top teams, who are maybe frustrated a lack of opportunity rather than somebody ending their career with a final couple of years on a decent salary.
Just hope Kendo and the boys can turn things around.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
LIrishxv (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 13:01
I get frustrated that these are payed professionals not being able to catch or kick. I have no problem with losing to a team when they’re obviously better, but failure to complete basic tasks when these players are paid to do that really bugs me. Hopefully we see a few better displays over the rest of the season.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
SirBurger (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 13:07
Good post Finno. Frustrated because there is potential there, but for me a winning mentality is a hard thing to coach or develop. The truth is that it emerges as a result of having better players. I think we can over-analyse the issues that this team is currently facing. Put simply, how many of this lot would get into the vintage of 2008-2010 era? Very few. And in that time the rest of the league has got stronger. We tend to overestimate the strength of the squad, but really we are one of the bottom 2 squads in the league and while Worcester have the cash to bring in replacements when they have injuries, it does not seem like we do.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Bazzo (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 15:30
It is a good post, and a question that I regularly ask myself. Truth is I do not let myself get frustrated. I knew what the club was like when I started coming to watch. I have no high expectations of the squad, I suppose it is why I enjoyed the championship so much. It is a big jump up and we do not have the financial clout to get up there, we just don’t.

If I’m being honest what does frustrate me the most is the fickle nature of support for the club. Reading v Brentford divides people and support. The London base v Thames valley, it’s strange how people see things. One week we are brilliant and the next we are rubbish, some players are heroes and London Irish through and through until they have a bad game and then they are a waste of space. I try not to look through green tinted glasses and stay in the present. I think the players and coaches are great, I really do and I don’t think anyone that I see “accepts mediocrity” but they just do their best with what they have. I love the effort, despite the results.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Horticbm (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 17:02
I get fustrated as I have seen little change over the years.A Harlequin supporter after Twickenham said " I can t believe what quality of rugby Irish Play, you'll never go down".I retorted "You dont know us that well, I guarantee this was a one off"......Ive watched Irish since the early 70's

I feel our fustration is born by our loyalty, we are then presented with what we have.I marvel at Exeter, they came up, survived, turned their fortunes around within 7 years and win the Premiership.

The Premiership is about success, success brings in money, money brings in the best players which in turn brings success.We at our level cannot keep making basic errors week in week out, we have some great players, we need confidence.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Florida (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 18:29
What frustrates me is we don't learn lessons. We don't have a decent 10 (Marshall as awesome as he is, is not a 10). We have Petrus and Franks, neither are mobile or dynamic, yet we constantly play them in the same lineup. We lack ball carriers, those we do have don't get game time as we prefer to play older, slower, less mobile props. We're getting humped week in week out, yet our coaches refuse to take a chance and change things up a bit. We haven't addressed the problems that began to surface in the championship, weak tackling against decent ball carriers (think Burrows rampaging through us when we played Yorkshire) and we still like to have a nap in most games and grant the opposition a few easy scores.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
SirBurger (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 18:35
Despite my earlier post, all of those things hugely frustrate me too Florida. I thought we would use the Champ to learn those lessons, but for all the positive talk and wins, it was clear that some of the necessary lessons simply weren’t learned.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Shawshank (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 19:01
For me it's the complete inability to get the most out of the sum of the parts.

When I first saw the LI team sheet back in the late 90's you would always think they would be humped, but somehow they got from their players more than the seemingly stronger oppo.

Part of this was very canny overseas recruitment - guys like Jake Boer, Jarrod C, Simon Halford, Capt Kirke, were virtually unknown of when they joined, can't have cost too much, but contributed massively.

This carried on in the 2000's - Tagi, Maps, Spud, PH, Faan, Clarke D - none of these were particularly well known of when they joined us, but gave incredible value.

But recently our overseas recruitment has been sorely lacking - can anyone say of any overseas player over the last 6 years that we would count as an LI legend..? Franks comes closest, but his best days were in the Championship and his play so far this year's has been pretty disappointing.

The other problem, as identified by others above, is the inability to learn from your errors. Our re-starts are now surely a joke amongst other AP teams - a terrible kick to the RHS, too deep to challenge. Matt Garvey was positioned correctly for every one of our kick-offs, and not one did we re-gain.

The coaches don't seem to be learning anything. Yesterday's attempts at a rolling maul from 5m were laughable - either knocking on, or panicking and trying to drive before the maul had been set.

Our attack is generally an utter shambles - the only planned move we seem to have is bringing either Topsy or Lewi on the inside pass from 10. Literally nothing else. We had more creativity in our School U13 team.

You can't imagine all this happening if someone like Cockerill was in charge. He's utterly turned round Edinburgh in the matter of weeks. I think we do now need some experienced hard sod to come in over NJK.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
HMRH (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 19:14
Regarding the comments on Marshall - he’s played less than 10 games in the Premiership but “he’s not a 10”!! We didn’t couldn’t wouldn’t buy an established Prem 10 so we have to build one. MAybe Bell at 10 but then Marshall wouldn’t be a FB either.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
olw131 (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 19:27
Marshall could play well at 10 if only he was instructed properly as to what to do with the bloody ball. Seemingly he's not a Ford, Farrell or, as it appears, Burns who will independently take a game by the scruff of the neck, but he's got a very good skill set and seems to be suffering from our overall lack of attacking structure and threat.

Even Dan Carter would struggle in this LI team.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Finno (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 19:52
Quote:
HMRH
Regarding the comments on Marshall - he’s played less than 10 games in the Premiership but “he’s not a 10”!! We didn’t couldn’t wouldn’t buy an established Prem 10 so we have to build one. MAybe Bell at 10 but then Marshall wouldn’t be a FB either.

Marshall played fullback most of the season for the Hurricanes when they won the Super Rugby championship, before he came over here...so he CAN play fullback and showed that yesterday.

Didn't Bell play at 10 for Tigers a few years ago when he single handedly beat us at the MadStzd with his boot??!!

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Steelman (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 21:04
[quote Finno][quote HMRH]Regarding the comments on Marshall - he’s played less than 10 games in the Premiership but “he’s not a 10”!! We didn’t couldn’t wouldn’t buy an established Prem 10 so we have to build one. MAybe Bell at 10 but then Marshall wouldn’t be a FB either.[/quote]

Marshall played fullback most of the season for the Hurricanes when they won the Super Rugby championship, before he came over here...so he CAN play fullback and showed that yesterday.

Didn't Bell play at 10 for Tigers a few years ago quote.

Marshall was horribly uncommitted for the two bath try's.please let's go back to Tonker at 15 and give Tommy a crack at 10 and let Marshall stew for a week or two, oh and give Ransom some game time.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Florida (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 21:10
Bell played 10 for us initially before Marshall arrived. Marshall had a few games at 15 and then we swapped them over and never looked back.

I'm all for building a 10, but surely if you do that you do it with a youth player and you do it through the academy, a-league and then the cups. You probably also do it when you have a decent back that allow you to give your 10 a bit more time on the ball. You don't do it when you're likely to be in a relegation fight. We didn't buy a 10, but we bloody well should have done. Worcs have bought one and I fear that is going to bite us in the ass, just like when Falcons signed Goode.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
The Sligo Rover (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 21:32
I like Marshall, he runs with the ball in hand at No. 10.
Makes a change from the endless hoofing it up the park that we see most weeks.
Run Marshall run.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Steelman (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 21:39
And another thing why do we keep signing small backs. Has it not been noticed that the prem is now full of juggernauts who are coached to run over small obstructions.Believe me ,when the games rugby,big is better,everywhere but scrumie.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Florida (IP Logged)
05 November, 2017 23:15
Quote:
The Sligo Rover
I like Marshall, he runs with the ball in hand at No. 10.
Makes a change from the endless hoofing it up the park that we see most weeks.
Run Marshall run.

Please, don't get me wrong I like Marshall, I would have just preferred us to have signed an out and out 10 and have Marshall run the ball from 15.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Bazzo (IP Logged)
06 November, 2017 08:34
Quote:
Steelman
And another thing why do we keep signing small backs. Has it not been noticed that the prem is now full of juggernauts who are coached to run over small obstructions.Believe me ,when the games rugby,big is better,everywhere but scrumie.

New signings.....Nalaga..... small? McLean.... small? If they are any good or not remains to be seen but I would not critise them based on their size. I can just presume you are referring to Marshall? He is not that small and could give George Ford a few inches.

Bell, Mulchrone, Tonks, Topsy all ok size wise. Meehan, McKibbin and Steele are ok as SH's are not needing to be huge.

Young players.... TBC. Fowlie, Jonny Williams, Big Joe (or should that be just "Joe")

Sorry I do not think we have small backs. Maybe not the biggest in the Premiership, but not small as you refer to them.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
paulm1953 (IP Logged)
06 November, 2017 11:12
I think the coaches should establish a core for the team and build the rest of the team around this core of players. When you look at the top 6 teams in the league they do not chop and change their team as much as LI. Once LI are playing as a team they can look to develop as a team like Exeter. Of course, you need a head coach like Rob Baxter.

Also the coaches should stop saying things like we were in the game for the first 50 or 60 minutes when clearly the game lasts for 80 BLxxdy minutes.

Unless things improved I will not be renewing my season ticket. Where I sit in the East stand I know of at least 20 fans who have stopped coming or select games to attend.

REALLY FED UP!



Come on you Irish

Paul

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
TeflonTed (IP Logged)
06 November, 2017 12:20
The really interesting thing about this thread is that it could be lifted almost word for word, and dropped onto the Wuss board, only needs the word “Irish”changed to “Wuss”where appropriate.

Looking forward hugely to the evening of Friday 22d Dec......such a shame it’s going to spoil the weekend for some, and possibly the rest of the season for others.

You’ll all be very welcome!

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
orsoncart (IP Logged)
06 November, 2017 18:06
To answer the original question...

- because we rarely play as well as the teamsheet implies that we will
- because we are brilliant at finding some way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
- because in a real tight match, we tend to cock up and lose rather than grind out a win

I am frustrated because I had high hopes that after a season in the Championship it would be a bit better than in 2015/6

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
LLL (IP Logged)
07 November, 2017 06:58
Great thread Finno.

For me, the reason I get so frustrated is because it all looks a bit matey.

By which I mean I don’t see a deadly serious and ferocious looking boss out there on the pitch. E.g. Big Bobs had the air of a man who wouldnt hesitate to knock someone’s block off at half time if they weren’t taking it as seriously as him.

We ask why we have such an apparently slack pre match routine and why we have consistently bad restarts, and make the same basic starts time and again.

Slipping slightly OT, my other favourite team, hants cricket, are a different side altogether when Shahid Afridi is playing - there is a very clear air of woe betide anyone who messes up.

And I don’t be see any semblance of that at LI today.

Yes I’m old fashioned and I know Caseys don’t come along every day. I’d Love to see a dictator character out there and have a bit more discipline and get rid of this back slapping buddy boy atmosphere.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Steelman (IP Logged)
07 November, 2017 09:19
Quote:
LLL
Great thread Finno.
For me, the reason I get so frustrated is because it all looks a bit matey.

By which I mean I don’t see a deadly serious and ferocious looking boss out there on the pitch. E.g. Big Bobs had the air of a man who wouldnt hesitate to knock someone’s block off at half time if they weren’t taking it as seriously as him.

We ask why we have such an apparently slack pre match routine and why we have consistently bad restarts, and make the same basic starts time and again.

Slipping slightly OT, my other favourite team, hants cricket, are a different side altogether when Shahid Afridi is playing - there is a very clear air of woe betide anyone who messes up.

And I don’t be see any semblance of that at LI today.

Yes I’m old fashioned and I know Caseys don’t come along every day. I’d Love to see a dictator character out there and have a bit more discipline and get rid of this back slapping buddy boy atmosphere.

Agree with loads of this,and frankly some of our latest recruits seem more ready for the golf club, than a Friday night at Sale or Newcastle.Thats why like Ossie, I am dismayed that the drive and energy of youth is continually sidelined for the knackered old battle buses of yesteryear.

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
AlecW (IP Logged)
07 November, 2017 10:08
Mistakes happen. That's life and no rugby player is ever perfect (not even John Eales! (Sm100)). What I get frustrated about, is the same errors happening again and again.

I don't think anyone would want to go on making the same mistakes under Dr Venter, Brian Smith, or Big Bob. They would strive to make sure the same thing did NOT happen again. Not because of the consequences (dire though they might be!), but because the player(s) did not want to let down the collective team effort, nor the efforts of a coach or captain that they respected (and to an extent feared).

The same would go for Sheasby, Hatley, Drotske, Rautenbach, Dawson, O'Shea etc - as 'leaders' within the squad, or as captains or coaches. You just would not want to let them down.

Who are the real leaders in our matchday 23...?

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
jekyll (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 20:14
The reason I am frustrated is the apparant lack of an attack coach, we didnt have one last season and mainly relied on our forwards to get us over the whiote line, but this season 9 passes to a stationary 10 and so on down the line and by the time we get to the wings we expect a miracle but we rarely have got over the gainline
Why are our 9s taking paces instead of whipping the ball out from the base of the ruck/maul/scrum, it just gives the opposiution time to come up on the backs and stiffle them.
Ransom put some better scrum half passes in the short time he was on the pitch as an injury replacement

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
orsoncart (IP Logged)
19 November, 2017 17:05
Same old, same old.

Penalties and Mistakes - how long has this been going on?

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Horticbm (IP Logged)
19 November, 2017 17:10
Only Wasps next!!!!!

 
Re: Why do we all get so frustrated?
Shawshank (IP Logged)
19 November, 2017 17:11
We had enough chances today, Marshall really should have scored in the corner at the end of the first half and Tommy missed a sitter of a conversion that would have allowed us to win at the end with a penalty kick.

But Burns and Fotoalili showed pure class at 9 and 10 for Bath, and ran the game so well for them.


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