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Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
PV (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 10:40
According to TRP

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
NMB (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 10:47
We've just signed him up though right?

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
ExiledChameleon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 10:55
Which is the perfect opportunity to insert a relegation clause. If we get relegated weíre stuffed. Weíll be stripped of our best players and wonít be competitive in the premiership ever again (long term ringfencing aside).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 10:55 by ExiledChameleon.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Anonymous User (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:01
Quote:
NMB
We've just signed him up though right?

Yup, 4 year deal. According to the TRP there's a relegation clause in it though.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
NMB (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:09
Sigh! Relegation is really going to kill us! Still time to ensure it won't happen though

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
PV (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:10
The relegation clause is a bit of a conflict of interest and should never have been in the contract terms

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
jimbo800 (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:18
Even if we did get relegated, joe wonít be getting anywhere near that England team for a while. I doubt heíd even get in the bath team. These players agents need to talk some sense into them.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
NMB (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:21
I guess in our position we'll never sign up our best players without one. Annoying though.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Margin_Walker (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:27
Quote:
PV
The relegation clause is a bit of a conflict of interest and should never have been in the contract terms

Would rather have him signed with the clause than not signed at all. Can't really blame the lad as he has a shot at going to a world cup. He may or may not make it playing in the AP, but he definitely won't be on the plane if he spends next season in the Championship.

Relegation really does so much damage to a club like ours. Even if we do somehow survive, the shadow of it will have hugely impacted our recruitment.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
HMRH (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:31
Relegation clause seems sensible to me from players side and clubs too in some cases. If we sign people on big wages and go down then we want to be able to end the deal as well. Big Joe deserves to play at highest level he can - good luck to him and anyone else in that boat.

Ring fencing more and more on the table if we want sustainable financial model for professional rugby.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
PV (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:32
If a player (if) is agitating for a move or even covertly wants it, thereís not much incentive to give your all and keep the team up. Iím not saying this is the case for anyone, but it is a conflict.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Margin_Walker (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:37
It's a fairly remote possibility though. If the coaches see even a hint a player not trying on the pitch he wont be picked. It's then pretty difficult for that player to impress potential suitors and international selectors.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
PV (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 11:48
Fair. TBH we have some decent players coming through out wide and more depth than other areas, so if we go down and lose Joe and Lewington, we have talent to backfill.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
GHA (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 12:48
Quote:
PV
Fair. TBH we have some decent players coming through out wide and more depth than other areas, so if we go down and lose Joe and Lewington, we have talent to backfill.

Lewington is probably our best back, and JC is possibly our brightest potential talent. Losing both would be a big blow IMO

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Heaf (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 12:55
Bath really get on my t*ts ... isn't it about time they went somewhere else for young talent ...

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
jimbo800 (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 13:37
I used to go to school in bath and play against all the academy guys. I could never understand how they didnít have better players coming through. That entire area is all rugby, every school in the county plays it, quite a few a high level. None of the guys who were tipped to be stars at my age group ever made a success of it at Bath. The better players werenít even from the area, they were pinched from dulwich college. To this day they still have a limited supply of talent coming through. They were always the most arrogant lads we played against (aside from Ryan lamb, but at least he backed it up with being better than all of us).

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 17:48
Quote:
jimbo800
Even if we did get relegated, joe wonít be getting anywhere near that England team for a while. I doubt heíd even get in the bath team. These players agents need to talk some sense into them.

We are losing a big winger in Banahan to Glos so I assume that they are looking at another unit.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Lincs-Exile (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 18:45
BM53 dont Bath ever get embarrassed at using LI as a feeder club for talent or are they just to lazy to produce there own.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Marbo (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 19:06
This news is awful and it pains me to say it but it makes perfect sense for Joe for his long term future as he would have a stable premierships career guaranteeing him to be in the eyes of England all the time - bath are never going down their cheque book is too big for that.

I love Irish and hate to be pessimistic about our future because I genuinely believe in the boys and we could stay up this season. But if Joe does goes we could be in serious trouble because whats to stop other clubs doing the same and stealing players like Johnny Williams as well.

I know some people have criticised Joe for not showing up this season expecting more from him (he is incredibly young) but the guy is showing a lot of heart for this team (more than can be said for some of the veteran players we have signed this season and past seasons) I've watched him punched the ground in frustration over losses this season, he is giving everything to this club on the field. If we can persuade him to stay we could have a bright future built round him. He could when all is said and done be a greater player for this club than Topsy!

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 19:09
Quote:
Lincs-Exile
BM53 dont Bath ever get embarrassed at using LI as a feeder club for talent or are they just to lazy to produce there own.

Bath Rugby? No idea, Iím not involved with the club.

Didnít Homer and Allinson go with LIs blessing? If you mean Watson, Joseph and Garvey that was 3 players 5 years ago?

In terms of finding talent Bath Rugby have found a few but like most clubs they recruit from outside (such as Tapuai, Brew, Stooke) as well as developing their own, such as ewels, ellis, clark, mercer etc. who are all good young players.

Iím pretty sure no club force a player to join them, whether thatís Tigers Lewington and De Chaves or Baths Northcote Green to you?

Itís sounds as if JC has asked for a relegation release clause - not sure thatís Baths fault? Of course as he is a good young player Iím sure that Bath wonít be alone in showing interest if you are relegated.

Best of luck for the rest of the season.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
DaveTVT (IP Logged)
07 January, 2018 19:26
Watson, May, Nowell, Daly, Solomono....even Roko...
All cleary ahead of JC in Eddie's mind at the moment. Pretty sure Joe will get to the world cup, but it won't be in 2019. If he keeps developing like is is, he could well be an England fixture in the next 2-3 years. I'd hate to see him leave, but if he goes to a stacked club like Bath who seem to buy players for fun, he will end up playing lots of minutes in the A league and very few in the AP. A greedy agent might convince him that's the best thing, but if he were to leave he'd be better off at a club where he was going to get many more starts than splinters in his backside.....

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Fanski (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 13:32
"BM53 dont Bath ever get embarrassed at using LI as a feeder club for talent or are they just to lazy to produce there own."

why should they feel embarrassed

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
AlecW (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 14:21
From memory, the following in the Bath first team set-up are all ex-LI (tho not all joined Bath directly from LI and IIRC some were 'allowed to leave' by LI...)

Toby Booth (first team coach)
Darren Edwards (first team coach)
Allan Ryan (strength & conditioning)

Darren Allinson
Matt Banahan
Matt Garvey
Tom Homer
Jonathan Joseph
Max Lahiff
Anthony Watson

Neal Hatley went to Bath before getting the England job...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2018 14:22 by AlecW.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Steelman (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 15:31
I've always thought that the one that hurt us most was Matt Garvey. With Casey and Kennedy gone,he was the go -to man to get you that yard or two of go forward,that every team needs.A real first name on sheet geezer,we still miss him. Wingers two a penny!

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Greenboots (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 21:28
Bath taking all my personal favourite players. Starting to take this personally now

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Blarney (IP Logged)
09 January, 2018 16:27
The grievance with Bath is not that they signed several of our players- itís that they raided an entire (and very promising) generation of our academy. Clubs such as ours rely on our academy to sustain our team. We canít afford to bring in loads of international class players like Bath can.
Itís no coincidence that our period of decline has run parallel to the time that those players would have formed the core of our first team. We had to start all over again.

Re. Cokanasiga, Iím pleased for him that heís had international experience but I do wonder if itís now put him on the radar of clubs like Bath - with a detrimental impact on us.

It is fundamentally flawed to have relegation in a league when a few wealthy clubs can steal away othersí best young players as soon as they start making a name for themselves.

As previously mentioned, it would be nice if Bath could concentrate on making their own academy as successful as ours, for the good of them, is and the game in general.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
HMRH (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 10:23
My issue with Bath is they broke the salary cap to build
a team - theyíre entitled to get any player they like itís the player not the club. If we had the money and the lure weíd get good players from other clubs and academies especially if our coaches had been coaches at those clubs

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
DrV'sHairyCraic (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 14:36
Banahan is off to Bath so they could be in the market for a new winger.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
harristocratt (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 14:49
Or even Gloucester.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
DrV'sHairyCraic (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 15:29
Quote:
harristocratt
Or even Gloucester.


D'Oh!

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
PV (IP Logged)
10 January, 2018 17:27
Another one of ours. Think we had him as a second row and got Hudson in return though

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Fanski (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 10:15
"It is fundamentally flawed to have relegation in a league when a few wealthy clubs can steal away othersí best young players as soon as they start making a name for themselves."

Nonsense without relegation Exeter would never have been promoted. Are we more deserving of a place in the Prem than Exeter?

If there was no relegation good players playing for a team at the bottom of the table will still move on to bigger/more successful clubs for a money b a chance to win trophies. This is the law of the jungle - sport is not equal - never has been never will be.

In any league some clubs are in a much stronger financial position than others. This is the case throughout out the lower league as well as the Prem, so to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion no league in any sport would ever have promotion and relegation.

Ambition is the life blood of sport with no promotion relegation many cklubs would have nothing to play for and who would bother to watch LI v Worcs for instance if there was nothing at stake? It would be a nothing game.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Portcullis Irish (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 15:01
Pro 12 has no relegation.
Italian teams getting much more competitive so a period of ring fencing isn't a cause of stagnation IMVHO.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Blarney (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 15:34
Fanski, I suggest you read my post more carefully. My issue is not with relegation per se, nor with richer clubs signing the best players.

My issue is clubs like LI having little recourse to protect our academy and newly promoted academy players from being poached wholesale by clubs like Bath if they show even a modicum of talent.

I am fine with high profile players choosing to go to Bath or wasps or saracens over us. Of course they would.

But if our own, homegrown players; that we have scouted, trained, developed and planned our future around are whisked away as soon as they gain a bit of a profile, how are we supposed to improve from the doldrums we are now in? We canít buy our way out (see Worcester), and we canít build our way out.

Maybe a rule limiting the number of academy graduates a club can pinch in a season, or not being able to buy academy graduates out of their contracts?

In many industries, if a company trains and develops a new employee, there is often an expectation that the employee will repay that with a set term of service. Same with the military funding recruits through university. Why not in sport?

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
12 January, 2018 17:41
Quote:
Fanski
"It is fundamentally flawed to have relegation in a league when a few wealthy clubs can steal away othersí best young players as soon as they start making a name for themselves."
Nonsense without relegation Exeter would never have been promoted. Are we more deserving of a place in the Prem than Exeter?

We haven't got the money that Exeter do. Or Bristol. We're probably bottom of the 13 (including Bris). Relegation for a second time in three years would do a lot of harm to this club. So, unless you want to say goodbye to London Irish forever, I think appealing to stay in Premiership rugby is our best shot at financial survival - lets face it, the rugby probably won't keep us up.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
LLL (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 05:21
Imvho all clubs are a system, same as any business or organisation. If your competitors create a superior offering, your staff will take it up. It really is that simple and basic.

In signing up our academy players our competitors are merely employing the competitive advantage they have invested in creating. I donít see whatís wrong with that, personally.

Ring fencing a league to protect a system that produces the weakest performance in the league defeats all logic of having a league, in my opinion.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Fanski (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 16:22
"We haven't got the money that Exeter do. Or Bristol. We're probably bottom of the 13 (including Bris). Relegation for a second time in three years would do a lot of harm to this club. So, unless you want to say goodbye to London Irish forever, I think appealing to stay in Premiership rugby is our best shot at financial survival - lets face it, the rugby probably won't keep us up."

I agree with absolutely every point you have made. I think relegation may be a total disaster from which the club will not recover. I will personally still be there to watch.

However, with players talking about playing too many games and the impact on their bodies the league is likely to contract rather than expand. If we are the weakest of 13 clubs where only 12 are in the top flight what right do we have to take the place of an aspiring club? Rugby has evolved hugely in recent years. Sport is survival of the fittest and if we are not good enough to compete with the others then we do not deserve to be in the top division. The league is not run for the benefit of our club.

The problem is that without our own ground and with a small fan base which I am sure attracts less sponsorship, a less successful team thus attracting less TV money we cannot compete with others in this league. In a ring fenced prem many games by November will be like friendlies with nothing to play for.

I would hate to watch that as it is pointless. I look at the some games from nations where there is no relegation and yes they throw the ball about with gay abandon but they are not playing with any pressure. Sport is about pressure and ups and downs and players making decisions and performing under pressure. Otherwise I see no point.

In a ring fenced Prem with no ground of our own and a small fan base will will just always be in the bottom 2. I see no fun in that I would rather we find out level be that on merit in the Prem or a lower league and see us compete.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Anonymous User (IP Logged)
21 January, 2018 22:37
Anyone see this weeks rugby paper? Kendo stated if any of our recently re-signed young guns, the article calls out TBC, Williams and Joe would have to break their contracts to leave us.

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Exile_Dave (IP Logged)
22 January, 2018 13:51
Yeah saw that.



I'd rather be a Paddy then a Quin!!

C'mon the boys in Green!!

 
Re: Bath want Joe Cokanasiga
Bazzo (IP Logged)
22 January, 2018 14:16
Quote:
Fanski
"We haven't got the money that Exeter do. Or Bristol. We're probably bottom of the 13 (including Bris). Relegation for a second time in three years would do a lot of harm to this club. So, unless you want to say goodbye to London Irish forever, I think appealing to stay in Premiership rugby is our best shot at financial survival - lets face it, the rugby probably won't keep us up."
I agree with absolutely every point you have made. I think relegation may be a total disaster from which the club will not recover. I will personally still be there to watch.

However, with players talking about playing too many games and the impact on their bodies the league is likely to contract rather than expand. If we are the weakest of 13 clubs where only 12 are in the top flight what right do we have to take the place of an aspiring club? Rugby has evolved hugely in recent years. Sport is survival of the fittest and if we are not good enough to compete with the others then we do not deserve to be in the top division. The league is not run for the benefit of our club.

The problem is that without our own ground and with a small fan base which I am sure attracts less sponsorship, a less successful team thus attracting less TV money we cannot compete with others in this league. In a ring fenced prem many games by November will be like friendlies with nothing to play for.

I would hate to watch that as it is pointless. I look at the some games from nations where there is no relegation and yes they throw the ball about with gay abandon but they are not playing with any pressure. Sport is about pressure and ups and downs and players making decisions and performing under pressure. Otherwise I see no point.

In a ring fenced Prem with no ground of our own and a small fan base will will just always be in the bottom 2. I see no fun in that I would rather we find out level be that on merit in the Prem or a lower league and see us compete.

I would see a ring fenced Premiership differently to that. Why would we always be in the bottom 2? All of the teams (bar Exeter, I believe) are losing money, they would play lots of younger players too keeping losses to a minimum. The key, (which is discussed to death on here) is having your own ground, to generate bigger crowds and more income and to have one either by building or renting one requires a lot of cash. To get the cash that is required you would have to borrow. Surely that is much easier if you are certain not to be relegated? Any business plan would be easier to put to lenders if you were certain of your place in the league and not the threat of large losses caused by relegation.


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