Two stories in today’s edition, behind pay walls but worth shelling out for.
Firstly Five-year Premiership exile for one defeat looks at a proposal to have play offs at end in next season and then 5 year moratorium on promotion and relegation-.
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
The second is about Mick Crossans P shares and why the Premiership would love to share the revenue between 12 and not 13 clubs
London Irish could lose everything in the Guillotine Games
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
Firstly Five-year Premiership exile for one defeat looks at a proposal to have play offs at end in next season and then 5 year moratorium on promotion and relegation-.
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
The second is about Mick Crossans P shares and why the Premiership would love to share the revenue between 12 and not 13 clubs
London Irish could lose everything in the Guillotine Games
[www.thetimes.co.uk]
Quiet day for news then....
Not read the article, but playoffs against the bottom AP team I assume?
Edit - Never mind. Have read them both now. It going ahead next season would be the worst case scenario really. However well we do, we'll still be a Championship team playing a Prem team. Losing would probably finish the club as we know. It. Best hope if it does end up going down this path is it being delayed until the following season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/03/2018 07:49 by Margin_Walker.
Edit - Never mind. Have read them both now. It going ahead next season would be the worst case scenario really. However well we do, we'll still be a Championship team playing a Prem team. Losing would probably finish the club as we know. It. Best hope if it does end up going down this path is it being delayed until the following season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/03/2018 07:49 by Margin_Walker.
How convenient is the timing of this. The RFU are determined to get rid of Irish.
Quote:Certainly looks that way. :-(jimbo800
How convenient is the timing of this. The RFU are determined to get rid of Irish.
I think it is the other Premiership clubs that are behind this and the leaks look credible. The Times doesn't report things without a strong level of confidence and it is a shame that Mick doesn't seem to have a response. The issue is simple to identify but impossible to solve. We don't own a ground. Unless a miracle changes that we are sitting ducks. I know it is unpopular but I think it adds to the need to look at a merger with Ealing. They are victims of this as well.
Not sure it is the other clubs rather the RFU
True, it does not make great reading, not for London Irish or for Rugby in general.
The English rugby establishment looking down on London Irish? Well that's never happened before!
For a sport that claims to be all inclusive, they are showing themselves up here. They are far to happy to let a team with such a history fade away. pretty disgraceful if it’s true, and if the other teams are involved in it, shame on them.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Too much of the 'they're all out to get us' going on here. Regardless of what the RFU plans are we are in the situation we are in due to years of decline which is of our own making. Since 09 we've gradually slipped from a good to an average to a mediocre to finally a Championship standard rugby team. At the beginning of this season it was hard to see how the club would survive if we dropped back down again, that is what has happened. Big shame but where we are is off our own making.
What about some missed forward pass in one game or an obstruction in another? No? Nah probably not
Austin1, I agree that this is largely of our own doing. However, we have been a far more consistent Premiership side than Bristol over the past ten or so years and have contributed far more to the English game than them, as well as having one of the best academies in the country. To be cut out in this manner does therefore seem somewhat suspicious. As Heaf said on another forum, we were the last Championship side to do promotion via the play off route, we go up and they decide to scrap the play-offs and now we are going back down a new, even tougher play off looks likely to be introduced. Can't help but feel a bit hard done by.
It's not a closed shop yet, fingers crossed
Quote:SirBurger
As Heaf said on another forum, we were the last Championship side to do promotion via the play off route, we go up and they decide to scrap the play-offs and now we are going back down a new, even tougher play off looks likely to be introduced. Can't help but feel a bit hard done by.
I absolutely understand the sentiment, as a process, playoff's make for a protracted season and as a result makes recruitment so difficult for both the possible promoted team as well as the possibly relegated team.
In terms of revised play-off fixtures themselves, if the best championship team cannot beat the worse Premiership team in a two way fixture, then you would have to assume that the likelyhood of the championship team being successful enough to remain beyond a season in top flight rugby following a promotion would be very slim.
To me it does make more sense (if there must be playoffs) to play a 'top V bottom' version rather than the old 'top 4' version.
However, no play-offs at all would be so much better!
So if a top v bottom play off is introduced, how is that going to help the promoted club with there recruitment for next season?
Playoffs although guaranteeing extra income for the teams involved leave teams at a disadvantage for the following season and imo shouldn’t be reintroduced.
Playoffs although guaranteeing extra income for the teams involved leave teams at a disadvantage for the following season and imo shouldn’t be reintroduced.
It is a No Brainer, We don't have the ground we need, We don't have the Large number of fans we need. We stay in Reading we are doomed!!!!!
I just want to say thanks to Nick K for all the loyalty he has seved and given usNick did a great job to as a club. I wish him and his family health and happiness!!!
Nick did a great job and if you looked at the last so many games things could have been diffrent. The club needs a bigger fan base and more money coming out of South West London!!!
I thankyou.
Now back to my padded cell, it is nice in here!!!
I just want to say thanks to Nick K for all the loyalty he has seved and given usNick did a great job to as a club. I wish him and his family health and happiness!!!
Nick did a great job and if you looked at the last so many games things could have been diffrent. The club needs a bigger fan base and more money coming out of South West London!!!
I thankyou.
Now back to my padded cell, it is nice in here!!!
Quote:Aa545
So if a top v bottom play off is introduced, how is that going to help the promoted club with there recruitment for next season?
Not sure if that was a question for me?
If so, I did say at the start of my post:
Quote:Cornish boy
I absolutely understand the sentiment, as a process, playoff's make for a protracted season and as a result makes recruitment so difficult for both the possible promoted team as well as the possibly relegated team.
Quote:Danny-Boy
It is a No Brainer, We don't have the ground we need, We don't have the Large number of fans we need. We stay in Reading we are doomed!!!!!
I just want to say thanks to Nick K for all the loyalty he has seved and given usNick did a great job to as a club. I wish him and his family health and happiness!!!
Nick did a great job and if you looked at the last so many games things could have been diffrent. The club needs a bigger fan base and more money coming out of South West London!!!
I thankyou.
Now back to my padded cell, it is nice in here!!!
Good to have you back on here! Hope the cell is comfortable.
Does anyone else feel like they are making this far more complicated than it needs to be?
Jimbo i believe its called vested interests which are causing this mess.
COYI
COYI
Quote:
Much more positive, although not sure how Premiership Rugby can vote to unilaterally shorten the European competition without agreement from other parties.
Quote:SirBurgerQuote:
Much more positive, although not sure how Premiership Rugby can vote to unilaterally shorten the European competition without agreement from other parties.
Yeah, the Champion's Cup angle will no doubt start the usual arguments online.
Just good to know that the change next year would have to be unilateral. Struggle to see a club like Ealing agreeing to that (or us for that matter assuming we get a vote!).
Whatever they decide, dump the ridiculous LV/Anglo Welsh cup. It's a nonsense and shouldn't ever have offered the prize of a Champions Cup place...How the rest of Europe ever agreed has always puzzled me.
If the English teams were doing better in Europe, there’s no way they’d be looking to reduce those games. Lose the A League and Anglo so the whole squad would get more game time instead of the beat 15 needing to start each week. Even we’ve got players who have plenty experience but never really play. If there was a bigger league we could change it up more. Ransom for example, perfectly able player, zero game time
Quote:SirBurger
have contributed far more to the English game than them
Would you like to quantify this statement please?
Quote:RinkadinkQuote:SirBurger
have contributed far more to the English game than them
Would you like to quantify this statement please?
Profile of the English game: first team to beat Leinster at home in Europe, beaten Premiership finalists by a point, beaten European Cup semi-finalists.
Production of English internationals: Alex Corbisiero, David Paice, Nick Kennedy, Steffon Armitage, Paul Hodgson, Topsy Ojo, Delon Armitage, Jonathan Joseph, Marland Yarde, Anthony Watson.
In short, Bristol have had one season in the Premiership in the last ten years. Irish have only not been in the Premiership one season in the last ten. It's fairly simple.
Hodgson probably not the best example to use there...
Quote:Margin_Walker
Hodgson probably not the best example to use there...
Became an international at Irish...
Quote:SirBurgerQuote:RinkadinkQuote:SirBurger
have contributed far more to the English game than them
Would you like to quantify this statement please?
Profile of the English game: first team to beat Leinster at home in Europe, beaten Premiership finalists by a point, beaten European Cup semi-finalists.
Production of English internationals: Alex Corbisiero, David Paice, Nick Kennedy, Steffon Armitage, Paul Hodgson, Topsy Ojo, Delon Armitage, Jonathan Joseph, Marland Yarde, Anthony Watson.
In short, Bristol have had one season in the Premiership in the last ten years. Irish have only not been in the Premiership one season in the last ten. It's fairly simple.
100% correct Sir Burger. And if you look at the last few years England U20’s squads, we continue to do so.
Could've possibly listed a few Lions as well SirB
We develop talent, others buy or pilfer it. Bristol buy it and often not to the benefit of the England set up. Great club, but so are we!
To be fair the likes of Genge, Attwood and M Vunipola were pilfered from them. But overall we've certainly had a more productive academy
Bristol have more money than we do
Do they have a stake in Ashton Gate?
Interesting discussion and one which puts a different perspective on the club vs country issues.
For PRL, who are pushing the ring-fencing discussions, they won't care one iota if LI have produced lots of internationals, U20s etc...they will care if LI can make a financially positive contribution to the Premiership.
For the RFU, who are pushing the game as a whole and therefore have more than a vested interest in both the number of internationals produced and the Championship, they will care about what happens to LI as it could be for the benefit of the game overall.
And there's the point. Rightly or wrongly, this is purely about what is best for the club game in the eyes of PRL. Have LI been at the forefront of the direction the club game has gone in England? No, for all the reasons above (self-inflicted or otherwise). Hence PRL's supposed attempt to buy the P share earlier in the season.
So you have two factions with differing ways forward trying to find a compromise which suits most, with the club (LI in this case) getting caught in the middle. Complicated doesn't begin to describe.
For PRL, who are pushing the ring-fencing discussions, they won't care one iota if LI have produced lots of internationals, U20s etc...they will care if LI can make a financially positive contribution to the Premiership.
For the RFU, who are pushing the game as a whole and therefore have more than a vested interest in both the number of internationals produced and the Championship, they will care about what happens to LI as it could be for the benefit of the game overall.
And there's the point. Rightly or wrongly, this is purely about what is best for the club game in the eyes of PRL. Have LI been at the forefront of the direction the club game has gone in England? No, for all the reasons above (self-inflicted or otherwise). Hence PRL's supposed attempt to buy the P share earlier in the season.
So you have two factions with differing ways forward trying to find a compromise which suits most, with the club (LI in this case) getting caught in the middle. Complicated doesn't begin to describe.
Bit harsh to say we only buy talent when we've currently got: Joyce, Jefferies, Uren, Sheedy, Dawe, Edwards, Rowland, Capon x2, Newey who have all played first team games for us this year having come through the academy. Given we also lost Eadie, Genge, Vunipola, Braley, Attwood, Phillips and soon to add Billy Searle (techically) to premiership sides from our academy while being done over by the play offs regularly too. Admittedly yourselves may not be the best to look to for sympathy given most of your academy end up at the lot down the road from us!
Given we have finally been given an additional catchment area last season I'd hope we would start to see an increase at England level too. We've had a few U18s and U20s recently that hopefully we stay with the club this time and progress to full honours.
Would like to think a successful Bris side would average near to 20k attendances and would mean we could stop overpaying internationals to play championship rugby. Don't see why we can't go for a 14 team league with ourselves and Ealing added and just get rid of the AW cup but I'm sure there are reasons!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 17:19 by JamboBris.
Given we have finally been given an additional catchment area last season I'd hope we would start to see an increase at England level too. We've had a few U18s and U20s recently that hopefully we stay with the club this time and progress to full honours.
Would like to think a successful Bris side would average near to 20k attendances and would mean we could stop overpaying internationals to play championship rugby. Don't see why we can't go for a 14 team league with ourselves and Ealing added and just get rid of the AW cup but I'm sure there are reasons!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 17:19 by JamboBris.
Quote:GHA
Do they have a stake in Ashton Gate?
Bristol rugby share the stadium with Bristol City both clubs are owned by one very wealthy man.
Whoa! Lets just think about this... Could be brilliant news.... All it needs is it to be delayed by a year......
2017/18 - Bris get promoted, Irish get relegated.
2018/19 - Irish get promoted, Quins get relegated.
Five year window before Quins can get back - - that'll teach them hem to deny I us a fixture in 1967 (or whenever it was.....)
2017/18 - Bris get promoted, Irish get relegated.
2018/19 - Irish get promoted, Quins get relegated.
Five year window before Quins can get back - - that'll teach them hem to deny I us a fixture in 1967 (or whenever it was.....)
Looks like the immediate ringfencing threat has passed here if this is to be believed
[www.express.co.uk]
[www.express.co.uk]
Quote:Automatic one up, one down was under serious threat from club owners keen to block off the 12-team league.
But when push came to shove no workable agreement was able to be reached at last week’s Premier Rugby board meeting to put before the RFU at today’s Professional Game Board summit.
Whatever the outcome the fact remains that any premiership club needs the backing of someone with deep pockets to absorb the seemingly year in year losses.
This is the cause of our rapid slid into mediocrity and now quite frankly an embarrassment.
Ironically the only profit making club last year was Exeter while as a club we have consistently provide other clubs and England with a pool of talent from our academy that just doesn’t reflect our position in the league.
In the meantime let’s just stop griping about the RFY wanting to deliver the killer blow to Irish. The Premiership is a business and the other shareholders will do whatever is necessary to protect themselves while ensuring they get a wealthy club to replace us. . And if that means our demise that just don’t give a sh*t.
It’s not the RFU we should blame but the other clubs. Luckily according to the Express they’ve seen sense.
But to all those with a paranoid disposition look at it from a commercial perspective.
This is the cause of our rapid slid into mediocrity and now quite frankly an embarrassment.
Ironically the only profit making club last year was Exeter while as a club we have consistently provide other clubs and England with a pool of talent from our academy that just doesn’t reflect our position in the league.
In the meantime let’s just stop griping about the RFY wanting to deliver the killer blow to Irish. The Premiership is a business and the other shareholders will do whatever is necessary to protect themselves while ensuring they get a wealthy club to replace us. . And if that means our demise that just don’t give a sh*t.
It’s not the RFU we should blame but the other clubs. Luckily according to the Express they’ve seen sense.
But to all those with a paranoid disposition look at it from a commercial perspective.
Howzabout two leagues of 8 (maybe roughly split geographically), inviting the 13 plus another three from the Championship (Yorkshire, Ealing, Pirates or whoever has the resources to purchase shares?). Each team would play 14 games and the top 2 or 4 from each league would enter year-end play offs to decide who are top dogs.
Quote:Kildysart
Howzabout two leagues of 8 (maybe roughly split geographically), inviting the 13 plus another three from the Championship (Yorkshire, Ealing, Pirates or whoever has the resources to purchase shares?). Each team would play 14 games and the top 2 or 4 from each league would enter year-end play offs to decide who are top dogs.
Sounds familiar.....
Glad it's not just me thinking 2 x 8 teams might make more sense. It keep it open to the wider group that can compete whilst incorporating the actual benefits of short term ringfencing. Relegate the lowest 1 or 2 teams based on three seasons results and promote championship winner plus 2nd v 3rd runner up to balance opportunity vs stability
Seems as though a 12 team prem and 1 up and. 1 down stays for the foreseeable from an article in the Express (clearly going to be true...) apparently forcing LI out was too much
As far as I understand it the current deal in place doesn't come to a end until the end of next season (or the one after) so any changes can only be made with the agreement of all parties which obviously won't happen with LI voting. So relegation will remain until then at least.
I think any proposal that increases the teams in the premiership is a no go due to dividing the revenues further when clubs are already making a loss.
I think any proposal that increases the teams in the premiership is a no go due to dividing the revenues further when clubs are already making a loss.
The biggest issue Premiership rugby has is not the number of teams in the league but how to increase the popularity of the game especially in getting younger fans to attend and even consider becoming STH. Looking at the support demograhics we have an ageing crowd base.
The crowds at Super Rugby and Pro14 games are larger and, especially with Super Rugby, are younger.
Half time entertainment is IMHO in need of revamping.
Also it is not a cost of ticket issue - last weekend I had 7 free tickets and eventually got rid of 5 (thanks PANS).
Your thoughts?
Come on you Irish
Paul
The crowds at Super Rugby and Pro14 games are larger and, especially with Super Rugby, are younger.
Half time entertainment is IMHO in need of revamping.
Also it is not a cost of ticket issue - last weekend I had 7 free tickets and eventually got rid of 5 (thanks PANS).
Your thoughts?
Come on you Irish
Paul
There's difference between regular cost and promotion cost. If you are a regular then you have already planned to turn up, if you are not then somehow you need to be interested and know about it. Announce the promotion too near the match and it's barely worth bothering.
The profile of rugby in general and LI in particular are hard raise. In part because a lot of the time the entertainment value is low to all but the hard core.
You talk about the Pro 14. The Pro 14 play more entertaining rugby for the most part. The premiership is a stodgy affair in comparison. In Scotland the success and style of rugby has done wonders for interest but it remains a minority sport outside of the 6 nations.
The profile of rugby in general and LI in particular are hard raise. In part because a lot of the time the entertainment value is low to all but the hard core.
You talk about the Pro 14. The Pro 14 play more entertaining rugby for the most part. The premiership is a stodgy affair in comparison. In Scotland the success and style of rugby has done wonders for interest but it remains a minority sport outside of the 6 nations.
Most Glasgow Warrior home games are sold out.
Quote:paulm1953
Most Glasgow Warrior home games are sold out.
Which means between 6000 and 7000 at regular games. Edinburgh much less. So very much a minority sport.
That said I believe Glasgow have got the balance right. Create an entertaining team then grow slowly and sustainably and hopefully to last. Their smaller stadium is actually a benefit as it keeps people keen to hold onto their season ticket and people outside keen to try and get in.
Interestingly enough the proposed/agreed new stadium for Cornish Pirates is 6000 max, capacity.
Quote:Narbia
Interestingly enough the proposed/agreed new stadium for Cornish Pirates is 6000 max, capacity.
With an option to expand!
Quote:to 15KTheRealBigEasyQuote:Narbia
Interestingly enough the proposed/agreed new stadium for Cornish Pirates is 6000 max, capacity.
With an option to expand!
Which would suggest they're not currently considering Premiership status.
BBC - timeline from 2005.
Quote:NarbiaQuote:to 15KTheRealBigEasyQuote:Narbia
Interestingly enough the proposed/agreed new stadium for Cornish Pirates is 6000 max, capacity.
With an option to expand!
Which would suggest they're not currently considering Premiership status.
BBC - timeline from 2005.
Are we moving there now?
Quote:Premiership capacity is 10k so if they build 6k then not much work needed to expand to 10k if they get promoted of course.NarbiaQuote:to 15KTheRealBigEasyQuote:Narbia
Interestingly enough the proposed/agreed new stadium for Cornish Pirates is 6000 max, capacity.
With an option to expand!
Which would suggest they're not currently considering Premiership status.
BBC - timeline from 2005.
Quote:Aa545
Premiership capacity is 10k so if they build 6k then not much work needed to expand to 10k if they get promoted of course.
Well Sarries are the case in hand in how to increase your 10K capacity overnight to 15K several times a year, so you MAY be right - depending on building type.
Best of luck to Pirates I say. Hope they complete their financing and work starts.
Mind you, you don't need 10K capacity for Pro14 membership !
Quote:NarbiaQuote:Aa545
Premiership capacity is 10k so if they build 6k then not much work needed to expand to 10k if they get promoted of course.
Well Sarries are the case in hand in how to increase your 10K capacity overnight to 15K several times a year, so you MAY be right - depending on building type.
Best of luck to Pirates I say. Hope they complete their financing and work starts.
Mind you, you don't need 10K capacity for Pro14 membership !
What financing? They're getting the council funding for it.
Quote:DrV'sHairyCraic
What financing? They're getting the council funding for it.
Huh? did you read the BBC link?
Quote:As above
Under the council's agreement, the funding will only be provided should the government also hand over £3m
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