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Hand of Forgiveness
MarkS (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 11:59
Whatever happened to forgiveness in this country?

Recently at the D-Day commemorations, two old enemies shook hands and embraced in a spirit of forgiveness and peace. All over the world, there are moments of great forgiveness every day from victims towards perpetrators epitomised for me by Colin and Wendy Parry after the Warrington bombing which killed their son. We all forgive wrongs done to us or by us.

Now what about Paddy Jackson? When should he be forgiven? and by whom? Some people say never - It seems to me that the only person who should be allowed to forgive or not is the girl involved - its her call nobody else's. We dont know what she feels until she decides to speak but Its her call and I'm sure the headlines tofay bring back bad memories for her.

However some people want to be outraged for her (or themselves?) (including Diageo and Cash converters). On a side-note, It always seems strange to me to contrast the quiet dignity of victims when they speak against the crass hate-mobs on the streets and social media.

So why cant a club like London Irish be the best place to help a man recover? We are a family-based club apparently and a family is the best place to recover and repent - even the prodigal son got accepted back. In our early days we were founded as a club to help Irish men fit into a strange city and I'm sure they did not all have squeeky clean backgrounds. I think we need to have a long hard look at ourselves if we will not, as a club or as fans, extend a hand of friendship to help a man who made a mistake. I'm more proud to be part of this club if we can help PJ hold his head high in public again. So lets not forget what he did but lets help him be the best he can be - its up to us all.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
SirBurger (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 12:03
I agree with the sentiment. However it is difficult to say "let's not forget what he did" because it seems like everyone has a different impression of exactly what he did. Anyway, the club are clearly taking the approach you set out in your post and I hope that the fans do the same. There is a lot of pressure on a young man's head and we should do our best to get behind him.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
olw131 (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 12:22
Very well said MarkS.

Kidney & Kiss know the guy better than all of us and have obviously adjudged for there to be a good opportunity for a second chance.

He deserves a chance to show he can be a good professional and get back to playing good rugby, rather than hanging him out to dry for the rest of his career for having a role in something he was recorded ‘not guilty’ for.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
LI Bohemian (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 12:34
MarkS can you clarify what we should not forget what JP did, I think I know what it was but I would like to know what you are saying it was.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
elegia (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 13:22
i'm an outsider, so bear that in mind, but curious to know what Mr Jackson has done post the accusations/ trial etc in terms of showing contrition, supporting schemes that help women who are victims of sexual abuse etc
mentioning as am not aware of what he has done & seems it would be the ideal time to highlight any positive actions he has taken in this regard



http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2011/7/13/1310579502636/New-Order-left-to-right-G-007.jpg

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
nixworld2 (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 14:02
Quote:
elegia
i'm an outsider, so bear that in mind, but curious to know what Mr Jackson has done post the accusations/ trial etc in terms of showing contrition, supporting schemes that help women who are victims of sexual abuse etc
mentioning as am not aware of what he has done & seems it would be the ideal time to highlight any positive actions he has taken in this regard

He threatened to sue those that used #Ibelieveher on social media.

And this might be of interest. [www.breakingnews.ie]

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
SirBurger (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 14:18
Headline does not match the comments made.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Shawshank (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 14:20
I suspect the word forgiveness is not part of the strident language of the folks at this centre.

They seem to see themselves as both Prosecutor, Judge, and Jury, and woe betide anyone who has a different opinion.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Heaf (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 15:17
Who writes that stuff the first paragraph is completely at odds with the 2nd?

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
GHA (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 15:30
Paraphrasing slightly...

Quote:
curious to know what Mr Jackson has done in terms of supporting schemes that help women who are victims of sexual abuse etc

You realise he was found not guilty, don't you?

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
nixworld2 (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 16:37
Quote:
GHA
Paraphrasing slightly...
Quote:
curious to know what Mr Jackson has done in terms of supporting schemes that help women who are victims of sexual abuse etc

You realise he was found not guilty, don't you?

He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Paul_D (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 16:41
Quote:
nixworld2

He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

If ever there was a case for proof reading what you type before hitting "post message"(Sm108)

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
MarkS (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 16:43
Sadly - it seems the haters are still in control

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 17:35
Quote:
Whatever happened to forgiveness in this country?

It appears to be over-rated. There are too many outraged people who have never done anything wrong in their whole lives.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
LI Bohemian (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 19:18
Quote:
elegia
i'm an outsider, so bear that in mind, but curious to know what Mr Jackson has done post the accusations/ trial etc in terms of showing contrition, supporting schemes that help women who are victims of sexual abuse etc
mentioning as am not aware of what he has done & seems it would be the ideal time to highlight any positive actions he has taken in this regard

This is a very good point, maybe he should go out of his way to prove people wrong about him, and pacify the general public, like when people who have actually been caught or convicted do, say like those caught taking drugs or drink driving check into rehab clinic and we can then sleep easily. My late grandfather was misogynistic but it wasn't a crime then luckily it is an unofficial crime now.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
GHA (IP Logged)
14 June, 2019 19:48
Quote:
nixworld2
He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

Quote:
Overall the medical evidence was of little benefit to jurors one way or the other. Both doctors agreed the injuries did not prove penile penetration or a lack of consent. Furthermore, most sexual assaults do not result in injury, Dr Hall said.

Taken from [www.irishtimes.com]

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
nixworld2 (IP Logged)
15 June, 2019 14:35
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
nixworld2
He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

Quote:
Overall the medical evidence was of little benefit to jurors one way or the other. Both doctors agreed the injuries did not prove penile penetration or a lack of consent. Furthermore, most sexual assaults do not result in injury, Dr Hall said.

Taken from [www.irishtimes.com]


Can I ask a question? Why are you trying so hard to defend truly shitty behaviour? Why not spend time trying to improve the way things are? It seems like a whole lot of energy is being spent trying to defend men who at the very LEAST behaved reprehensibly.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
ExiledChameleon (IP Logged)
15 June, 2019 15:20
Quote:
nixworld2
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
nixworld2
He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

Quote:
Overall the medical evidence was of little benefit to jurors one way or the other. Both doctors agreed the injuries did not prove penile penetration or a lack of consent. Furthermore, most sexual assaults do not result in injury, Dr Hall said.

Taken from [www.irishtimes.com]


Can I ask a question? Why are you trying so hard to defend truly shitty behaviour? Why not spend time trying to improve the way things are? It seems like a whole lot of energy is being spent trying to defend men who at the very LEAST behaved reprehensibly.

I'd encourage you to speak to some people from NI on the issue, there's a reason why a seemingly very complicated 7 week long court case was resolved unanimously inside of three hours, with more or less the entirety of Ulster rugby fanbase wanting him back. In what would be a rather progressive move if all involved were anonymous there's still a ban on reporting/discussing certain past incidents of some of those involved that made deliberation a very simple affair.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 15/06/2019 15:32 by ExiledChameleon.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
x_ile (IP Logged)
16 June, 2019 11:26
A general question.

If a number of individuals commit similar/identical offences, how do subscribers to social media decide which of those individuals are to be demonised and who should be left alone?

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
plzd (IP Logged)
17 June, 2019 13:05
Quote:
olw131
Very well said MarkS.
Kidney & Kiss know the guy better than all of us and have obviously adjudged for there to be a good opportunity for a second chance.

He deserves a chance to show he can be a good professional and get back to playing good rugby, rather than hanging him out to dry for the rest of his career for having a role in something he was recorded ‘not guilty’ for.


The general public do not care if he is a good rugby player or not.

He was not guilty of rape - not of vile disgusting behaviour and a revolting attitude to vulnerable females.

Would you want this guy anywhere near your daughter? I certainly would not.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
17 June, 2019 13:17
Oh no, he said some mean things... HANG HIM!!

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
LI Bohemian (IP Logged)
17 June, 2019 13:54
Quote:
ExiledChameleon
Quote:
nixworld2
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
nixworld2
He also had sex with a drunk women who left him bleeding and hysterical. That isn't hyperbole, it is an accepted fact in court. Some thought and action on not treating women like @#$%& might be nice.

Quote:
Overall the medical evidence was of little benefit to jurors one way or the other. Both doctors agreed the injuries did not prove penile penetration or a lack of consent. Furthermore, most sexual assaults do not result in injury, Dr Hall said.

Taken from [www.irishtimes.com]

I'm pretty sure if you ask people from NI what they think you may get very differing accounts on things, people in general believe the most remarkable things and what they don't know they speculate.
Nixworld2 your original post was shown to be wildly inaccurate, but this seems not enough for you to state that when you are shown to be "inaccurate" it should be seen as defending JP and a waste of energy? It could also be seen that your inaccurate account of this situation is a waste of energy, but I am only musing.


Can I ask a question? Why are you trying so hard to defend truly shitty behaviour? Why not spend time trying to improve the way things are? It seems like a whole lot of energy is being spent trying to defend men who at the very LEAST behaved reprehensibly.

I'd encourage you to speak to some people from NI on the issue, there's a reason why a seemingly very complicated 7 week long court case was resolved unanimously inside of three hours, with more or less the entirety of Ulster rugby fanbase wanting him back. In what would be a rather progressive move if all involved were anonymous there's still a ban on reporting/discussing certain past incidents of some of those involved that made deliberation a very simple affair.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
paulm1953 (IP Logged)
18 June, 2019 08:23
Sick to death with people giving PJ a hard time. He was found not guilty so let's move on. I look at PJ as a playmaker who hopefully will keep us in the Premiership.



Come on you Irish

Paul

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Scottish Brian (IP Logged)
18 June, 2019 11:31
Good morning all,

this is my first post on this forum as I am an Ulster following Season ticket holder who lives in Belfast so if you have any questions about Paddy Jackson please do not hesitate to ask and I will try and answer them as best I can?

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Lincs-Exile (IP Logged)
18 June, 2019 14:32
So how does an Ulster supporter view what has happened and what is the Ulster supporters view on Paddy.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Scottish Brian (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 00:33
Sorry for the delay Lincs-exile,

The Questions are quite broad but I hope this helps.

The General feeling is that what is happening to Paddy now, and after he was aquitted of all charges, is a particularly nasty form of vilification that does not seem to have any justification in reality and confirms that the spineless IRFU and our former CEO Shame Logan threw Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding to the Holier than thou Keyboard Warriors and took the money.

It was reported in Belfast that the main drivers of the campaign to stop the two players plying their trade for Ulster and Ireland were the CEO's of Vodafone Ireland and Bank of Ireland in Dublin who put pressure on the IRFU to release the players. As far as I can tell the Guinness sponsorship is also Headquartered in Dublin. On a personal note I have stopped drinking it.

There have also been so many inaccuracies reported from both the trial and ancillary events from journalists who should know better and trolls who should fact check that it would take too long to correct them.

All this leads to a feeling of injustice at Ulster Rugby and a hope that the two players will be able to ply their trade without being persecuted.

I for one applaud London Irish and hope that Paddy performs as well as we know he can for you this season.

Many Ulster supporters, including myself, will be following London Irish with renewed interest and wishing you well for the coming season


Brian

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Florida (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 07:40

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
bigbitty (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 08:25
That article pretty much sums up my view, and seems to reflect the majority of posters here.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
SirBurger (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 09:12
I preferred the Times piece on this. The Mirror article seems to lay all of the blame at the girl's door, which I am not necessarily sure is fair.

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Lincs-Exile (IP Logged)
19 June, 2019 12:12
Brian thank you for those honest thoughts from an Ulster prospective, as most people this side of the water have only had snippets of information which all seemed extreme for the most part.Hopefully Paddy can put this behind him and re-establish himself in the game.Unfortunately i have to admit that reading some of the articles written in various newspapers and especially on online media that poor Paddy will have this thrown at him all the time because of peoples unforgiving nature.
Cheers

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
Foggy-Balla (IP Logged)
21 June, 2019 14:13
Quote:
MarkS
Whatever happened to forgiveness in this country?
Recently at the D-Day commemorations, two old enemies shook hands and embraced in a spirit of forgiveness and peace.

What?!? We’ve made up with the French?!?



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

 
Re: Hand of Forgiveness
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
23 June, 2019 12:00
Quote:
Shawshank
I suspect the word forgiveness is not part of the strident language of the folks at this centre.
They seem to see themselves as both Prosecutor, Judge, and Jury, and woe betide anyone who has a different opinion.

Says the person not at "this centre" who attacks them for their opinion?

Oh the irony!


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