Lots of talk in the England game about how Tindall made the difference, how it was wrong to take him off, etc etc.

Funny thing was, when Tait came on I thought he actually carried very well - much like Foden he made ground when he shouldn't. I also thought Tindall did very little for much of the match

Here's the amusing stuff, the match stats from scrum.com (full disclosure: I think they're often pretty wrong):

Tindall: 52mins - 4 passes, 5 runs, 17 metres gained, 1 defender beaten, no offloads, 3 tackles
Tait: 28mins - 1 pass, 3 runs, 21 metres gained, 0 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 3 tackles

So er, yeah. Tindall didn't really do all that much. Did well with what he did but Tait got far more involved and made more ground with what he did!

I'd also post on how hopeless Wilko was apart from his penalty but I'm still too angry about that. And the less said about Danny butchering a walk-in try the better...

I thought Tindall looked far better than Tait IMHO.

I don't remember a walk in try - when was that?

Yes, that's kinda my point. Everything (literally everything) Tindall did was highlighted and talked up. Even that hilariously awful "quick pass" to Cueto that Cueto did brilliantly just to hold on to.

As for DC: When Danny got the ball 5 metres out with 2 players outside him, one of whom would've been in unopposed and decided to try it himself and knocked it on. It's when MJ went absolutely ballistic.

I think you need to have a look at the 'walk in try' again, it wasn't quite like that.

I wasn't listening to the talking up of Tindall, I just thought he played as well as I've seen him play since 2003, Tait played well when he came on but I thought Tindall played better.

Prof, I suggest you do the same. I'm sure you have Sky+ like me - count the defenders, then spot the people outside Danny and note that we have a man on the wing in acres of space with no defence in front of him.

I know he's a Quins player etc but that was inexcusable.

I thought Danny had a good game. I think the walk in try comment is very harsh. He was a bit unlucky the ball was knocked out of his hands by a French player.

It was nothing like Ashton's blunder.

I thought Tindall and Tait did well but Flutey has been a real disappointment this year

It wasn't unlucky - Danny went for it himself instead of drawing and passing. That's sort of the point, it was an awful decision and cost us a try.

Looking at the stats and Easter made 16 tackles - 5 more than Moody - and missed none. He also made more ground than any other forward. Worsley on the other hand made only 5 tackles (and missed one) and made 2 whole metres with ball in hand. What a waste of space.

I am with prof I really do not know what game Jammy Git was watching. Have another look at that walk in try. I thought Danny played well. And go on do tell what Jonny did wrong, I guess he cost us the win again did he. Ha ha ha ha ha

I've looked at it 4 times, how many times do you want me to?

And Danny played well but his passing was pretty floaty today - 3 times players got man and ball as a result.

As for Johnny - he came on, landed a quality penalty, then decided to pass behind the man several times. In the last 5-6 minutes, he kicked possession away poorly, twice. Even with that last penalty we got he managed to get barely 15m on the kick to touch.

Flutey was anonymous but Wilko showed that he offers nothing except goalkicking, and this 6N even that's been pretty inconsistent.

One wonders what match YOU were watching.

The team seemed a lot more balanced (apart from the front row) and they all
seemed to want to win and play some rubgy.

When Shaw came I off I thought we'd get really stuffed upfront but Deacon and Palmer
did OK too which was a bit of surprise.

I think Care has improved and seemed very settled. He's speeded up his delivery
and his box kicking was very good. Flood really helped the backline and Ashton and Foden
stepped up well.

Roll on the Summer!!

And just in case people think I've got it in for Danny (and anyone who read my defence of him last week would know that's not the case), I agree that he was quicker to actually get the pass away today, and I have a suspicion that it was the conditions that made him a little conservative with his passing speed - which is absolutely fine by me.

His box kicking is a real weapon.

I thought both Cueto and |Care took wrong options in that 'probable' try. Disappointing.

For years my cousin, who worked in Manchester and supports Sale Sharks, has espoused Matthew Tait's cause big-time.

Earlier this year he taunted me in delight when Tait got the call from Martin Johnson for the Six Nations. However, I've always been a Tait agnostic - believing him to talented but lightweight - and nothing I saw in the Six Nations changed my view.

As regards this thread, it's no contest.

Tindall may have lost a yard of pace these days, and I don't feel he was even 'hardened' match fit either, after only a couple of games for Gloucester, but he did what Tindall does ... and thereby added considerably to England's effectiveness.

I'd pick him (over Tait at least) every time.

The point that was made on the beeb was that Tindall looked for space and altered his positioning and angles to get himself into it. In other words he showed some intelligence, and leadership, and he played what was in front of him - the things people have been demanding all championship. It's not what I would have associated with Tindall before yesterday, but I think you have to give him his due for a good game.

And as for the stats - not much of a way to compare outside centres IMHO. e.g. it doesn't show how much ground the team gained as a result of Tindall finding that space. He doesn't have to carry the ball the whole way himself to be effective.

Danny Care just isnt cuuting the mustard for England at the moment im afraid...Time to step aside

you have to remember that Tait came on only when Basteuard went off.

Tindall did his job very well

Tait v Basteuard would have been cruel.....

I'm still waiting for Bastareaud to do something. Apart from be large that is. That seems to excite a lot of people though.

His size and mental frailty seem in equal proportions.

Played well against Ireland and away to NZ.

The other thing about trying to use Tindall's performance to slate Tait's efforts earlier in the tournament is that it completely ignores the fact that Wilko was at 10 for the rest of the 6N. Yesterday we finally had an attacking 10 willing and able to spark attacks with ball in hand, and a back 3 playing with the same attitude.

Quote:

Jammy Git
The other thing about trying to use Tindall's performance to slate Tait's efforts earlier in the tournament

what performance was that then? he did very little didn't he?

He did some nice things, but wasn't as involved as people seem to think. That doesn't mean that what he did do wasn't effective. As I said in the opening post.

Quote:

Jammy Git
Yes, that's kinda my point. Everything (literally everything) Tindall did was highlighted and talked up. Even that hilariously awful "quick pass" to Cueto that Cueto did brilliantly just to hold on to.

Agreed, never seen a player so well "edited". thought Butler was going to run down pitchside and throw his knickers at him.

Erm, you could also argue that Jonny might have looked better if he'd been playing with a centre like Tindall who actually ran at pace rather than stood 10 miles away from the fly half. A true comparison of Flood and Wilkinson oly works if the rest of the variables in the experiment stayed the same. They didn't. And Toby, fine player though he is, needs to learn to tackle better. Foden surely has the 15 shirt now?

Much better all-round performance by England. Shame Ashton's inexperience caused him to make such a dodgy decision with that kick and that Danny fumbled his try-scoring chance.

Quote:

BatQuin
Erm, you could also argue that Jonny might have looked better if he'd been playing with a centre like Tindall who actually ran at pace rather than stood 10 miles away from the fly half. A true comparison of Flood and Wilkinson oly works if the rest of the variables in the experiment stayed the same. They didn't.

Err... Flutey was the man standing 10 miles away from Wilko earlier in the tournament, who was standing 30 miles back from Danny. Nothing to do with Tait or Tindall. Flood played a far more attacking game where he challenged the gain line and his centres by and large followed suit.

Wilko has played like a drain 6N and cannot be defended.

Quote:

And Toby, fine player though he is, needs to learn to tackle better.

Saw one absolutely demolishing tackle. However I doubt his tackle stats are any worse than Wilko's.

He missed two I think but so what? Wilko's tackling is usually (not always) a bonus, but the fly half needs talents of greater importance. Flood was in a different league and must surely be the first choice now. I'm not even sure I'd want to see JW on the bench.

And yes, one of Flood's tackles was bone-crunching! He's anything but lightweight in that department.

One thing to remember is that France didn't really put up much of an attacking challenge

Indeed. Or a defensive one.

So realistically we should look at performances over a long period of time...