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Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Toast (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:01
Certainly a Dynamic, skilful and keen individual but IMHO
jumps out of the line very early leaving large holes, misses / drops off tackles regularly and that has allowed a number of scores / chances to score against us, how to resolve?

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
The Kid (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:03
defence? what defence?

one way of sorting it would be to make academy players run at him until he's capable of wrapping up the man and finishing the tackle every time.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
JTD (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:05
Yes..His defence certainly needs some work. Drill, drill drill. That's all you can do. I'm sure he'll improve. He's taken his chance well this season and the way he is going forward has masked his defensive frailties. They were there for all to see today though.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:45
Liability today. Simply must not be allowed to play at prem level until he can tackle.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
quinshead (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:49
He has been a revilation this season yes he has to work on his tackling but offensively he is superb

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
woe quin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:55
I think we saw clearly today why George Lowe is still 1st choice, a stronger and better all round player

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 19:58
Quote:
quinshead
He has been a revilation this season yes he has to work on his tackling but offensively he is superb

Don't think anyone will dispute his attacking prowess, but he missed Four or five talked today.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
quinshead (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 20:21
Yes granted we all have bad days at the office tact dies not make him the liability that some posters on here seem to be suggesting

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 20:33
Hopper was'nt the only one! Check Danny Care's pathetic attempt at a tackle on Jonathan Joseph which led to a London Irish try.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
The Kid (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 20:49
Quote:
QuinAlan
Hopper was'nt the only one! Check Danny Care's pathetic attempt at a tackle on Jonathan Joseph which led to a London Irish try.

So bad it got him substituted instantly!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Samquin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 21:32
DC's main weakness today was his sloppy box licking.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
TeddingtonQuin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 21:36
Quote:
Samquin
DC's main weakness today was his sloppy box licking.

That sounds like fun (Sm100)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Samquin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 21:41
Quote:
TeddingtonQuin
Quote:
Samquin
DC's main weakness today was his sloppy box licking.

That sounds like fun (Sm100)

I apologise ... Box kicking

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
1908 (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 22:30
Hopper is an enigma.

I've not seen him live at the Quins but obviously saw all his games for the Pirates last season.This season all I've seen of him is on the television.

He is a player that divides opinion. When he joined you this season many people said that he would never make it.We all saw his defence at Championship level and to be fair it was a bit porous then.

But what Hopper has is an inate ability to find space and make yardage when he has no right to.That can't be coached.Few players have that ability.....most will never have it despite their and the coaches best efforts.

What can be learnt and improved by the player and helped by coaches is defence. What can't be taught is what Hopper has.
Let's not forget how far he has come in such a short time.

A friend of mine is adamant that if Hopper had the hair and face of Simpson (the Wasps scrum half) then he would get nowhere.He puts his promotion down to his distictive looks rather than his distinctive style of rugby.

Hopper will either kick on next season to greater heights or will find the "second season syndrome" to hard to handle.
I think he will kick on.

I have bet my friend......who follows Quins as well....that Hopper will win more caps than either JTH or Lowe.It's a long shot and many Quins followers will not agree.But only time will tell.

One thing is for sure.He is a player that excites spectators.He makes things happen,both good and bad.Let's hope by the end of your season the good outweighs the bad.I'm confident it will.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
woe quin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 22:38
I will be willing to bet you that Hopper will never play for England - he's an exciting player with pace and a great offload - but his defence is a liability at this level let alone internationals.
Lowe should start next week



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2012 11:02 by woe quin.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
TurndownthePA (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 23:02
Lets face it Will Greenwood was a poor tackler for quite sometime but ended up (for England anyway) a strong defensive leader.

I'd rather we had a centre who can make space and attack than a simple tackling machine...as above one can be coached the other is natural.

He'll be alright and come good on the hard grounds to come.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 23:10
No enigma for me. He can't tackle. George Lowe please.



Reinstate the Fulham 1!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
11 February, 2012 23:19
Hopper is a perfectly good second choice - which is fine as that is where i will stay!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Mr_B (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 00:11
Hopper will come good with a bit of coaching, might take a season but I think he'll do it.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
JB1 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 00:55
The bloke as natural attacking talent. As has been said, you can't teach what he does naturally.

The prem has an abundance of centres who can tackle, yet offer little or nothing going forward.

It's a team game and yes he will have to improve however,he offers so much in attack, that we may have to make allowances in team tactics.

IMHO, he will step up next season.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 07:16
Lowe is the better player, but I think Hooper was dazed from a knock to the head for the the last tackle he missed, then being out of position, which lead to an Irish try just before he was subbed. `This could happen to anyone, so some slack should be cut.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
GladstoneQuin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 08:19
Still very much second choice 13 probably felt the heat today with george on the bench and not performing yesterday but iron out them problems with tackling and jumping the the line and we could have two quality 13's at the club in no time.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Harley Quin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 09:30
I agree that Lowe is clearly a more complete player at this moment. However, I am pleased to have both of them. Hopper has huge upside potential if the coaches can sort his defensive game out. I have a lot of faith in our coaching staff.......

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
PQ2 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 11:39
I think you're all missing the bigger picture here.
It's clear to me that Hopper's strategy is to launch himself at 400-500 attackers during each match, in the sure knowledge that a couple of dozen will stick. We're all just noticing the other ones.

-Admittedly this can lead to the odd biff in the head, but if it was good enough for internationals like Gonzalo Tiesi.... (Sm105)


(Sm14)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 11:54
Defences win championships!!!! Excellent going forward but it only takes one lapse at outside centre against top class opposition(eg Toulouse at Stoop) which is the sort we will b up against in play off games/finals. We all know how tight thse affairs are and how precious tries are so cant afford liabilities. Lowe will win more caps than JTH or Hopper but is now having to contend with Tuilagi but reckon he will be injured a bit and Lowe will get his chance

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Rocker (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 12:26
I think I'm happy to go with the consensus on this one. Great going forwards, but the odd lapse in defence. I hope the defence will improve over time but he is a damn good no.2 at outside centre.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nicksb (IP Logged)
12 February, 2012 12:52
Can't really fault his commitment but his technique needs work.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinn-nine (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 14:41
He seemed to be OK when he was tackling the likes of Lesley Vainikolo earlier this season.

He is good on the attack but give him some more defensive coaching and he'll be the definitive article.



__________________
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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
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Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Derek_quin (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 14:51
I think he's done a great job and made a huge impact already. he is not the finished article agreed but how many teams bring in a player from the league below who is?

It's nice to see an attacking centre trying to find gaps and space. OK he needs to work on his tackling but every team could fill their back line with solid tacklers from the Pacific who just crash the ball forward in attack.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
14 February, 2012 14:56
DQ I concur! MH does better when he tackles low and wraps the legs up. He seems to fall off tackles when he goes higher.



Adventure before Dementia!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 15:13
To be honest if, you pick up a little player, relatively speaking, you are hoping that his go forward play, is superior to his inability defensively. He can work on the defence, hard to teach a nose for a gap.

G-Lowe will still be first choice IMHO

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
poorfour (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 15:29
Quote:
Quinn-nine
He seemed to be OK when he was tackling the likes of Lesley Vainikolo earlier this season.
He is good on the attack but give him some more defensive coaching and he'll be the definitive article.

No he didn't. Vainikolo went through him on several occasions. His defensive positioning has improved, but he is still vulnerable to a powerful runner going straight through him.

Hopper is very exciting to watch and I am glad we have him. But at the moment Lowe is a better all round player: as effective in attack (albeit a very different style of player), much more complete in defence. Having both players in the squad is good news and they will drive each other to improve.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
ianco (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 17:24
George Lowe misses tackles too. His absense seems to have improved him as a player in our collective memories.

Also because outside centres are so frequently injured then Quins are lucky to have two high quality players to cover such an important position.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 17:35
Lowe is not perfect - but his defence is good for a little'un and he has good attacking nous.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 17:57
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
Lowe is not perfect - but his defence is good for a little'un and he has good attacking nous.

Lowe is not perfect, nobody is, but he misses half the tackles. Metres carried very similar, so not sure Hopper's ahead in atack. How anybody would consider Hoper ahead of Lowe is beyond me.

GL MH
9 Matches 6
1 Tries 1
5 Points 5
1 Try assist 0
1 Kicks From Hand 1
24 Passes 15
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
55 Carries 39
222 Metres carried 140
4 Clean breaks 3
4 Offloads 3
5 Defenders beaten 4
53 Tackles 32
6 Missed tackles 8
2 Penalties conceded 5
6 Turnovers conceded 5
1 Line outs won own throw 0
0 Lineout steals 0

Just by the by, good to see that 2 of england's back line make the top 10 in missed tackles, especially having missed games due to international duty:

Players Team Matches Missed
1 Tom Johnson Exeter 14 18
2 Owen Farrell Saracens 13 16
2 Ryan Lamb Northampton 13 16
2 Andy Saull Saracens 13 16
5 Julian Salvi Leicester 13 15
5 Shaun Perry Worcester 12 15
7 Freddie Burns Gloucester 14 14
7 Chris Jones Worcester 14 14
7 James Gaskell Sale 14 14
10 Jamie Helleur Newcastle 9 13
10 Sam Tuitupou Sale 11 13
10 David Strettle Saracens 12 13

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
poorfour (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 18:12
The most impressive stat there is that Lowe has won a lineout. Presumably a quick one, since I don't remember JJ hurling him high into the air so that he could soar above the opposing locks and claim the ball.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 18:12
RR - no need to convince me, i believe the worst thing to happen this season is Lowe's injury, otherwise i firmly believe that Barritt would have had G.Lowe outside him in the England midfield - Faz coming off the bench.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Stooperman (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 18:29
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
RR - no need to convince me, i believe the worst thing to happen this season is Lowe's injury, otherwise i firmly believe that Barritt would have had G.Lowe outside him in the England midfield - Faz coming off the bench.

Totally agree NLB, I think its astonishing how low his profile is outside our club - I'm not even sure that some of our own fans realise just how good he is. He is definitely going to win some England caps before his careeer is over.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
forthewin (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 19:50
Is it me or is everyone just repeating each other? (Sm159)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 20:13
Quote:
poorfour
The most impressive stat there is that Lowe has won a lineout. Presumably a quick one, since I don't remember JJ hurling him high into the air so that he could soar above the opposing locks and claim the ball.

I think JJ would pretty much launch him, and he'd come back down with snow on him!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
kevin (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 20:29
Hopper is a spoiler. By that I mean he is quick enough to put oppo under pressure to move the ball on quickly, too quickly, forcing errors or at least a ruck. His one on one is ok but not disastrous compared to others. I reckon some folk are blind to absentees' occasional frailties!

Going forward Hopper poses questions, again a spoiler if you like. creates uncertainty in oppo defensive lines. Great stuff especially given the way we play our rugby.

Selection will depend not only on an overall view of a way a player can perform, modern selection will very much depend on what specific strategy the coach wants to adopt and what players have the necessary skills to carry out that strategy. Much like for example in cricket. A fast bowler might be quickest in the world but be dropped for a spinner if the wicket is good for spin or oppo batsmen play fast bowlers better.

And a good modern coach will use subs wisely as a game's dynamics change. The sub might be just as effective as a starter given prevailing cicumstances.

I'd go on about the economic law of comparative advantage, absolute advantage adopt it for rugby but that might just confuse folk! (Sm105)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 20:35
Quote:
Quinn-nine
He seemed to be OK when he was tackling the likes of Lesley Vainikolo earlier this season.

That was the match he missed 5 tackles in, so no.

Lowe is a phenomenally good tackler at 13 regardless of his size - his relative lack of bulk just makes it all the more impressive. Hopefully watching Hopper has encouraged him to try a bit more flair with ball in hand. Hopper is fearless in attack.


RR: You'll need "tackles made" to go with that that stat for a fair comparison I reckon. Farrell and Barritt make an amazing amount of tackles for Sarries. Strettle... not so much smiling smiley



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 20:53
Kevin - i like the idea of "horses for courses"

not sure our recruitment is heading that way - feel like we are going for "like for like" replacements

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
kevin (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 21:51
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Quinn-nine
He seemed to be OK when he was tackling the likes of Lesley Vainikolo earlier this season.

That was the match he missed 5 tackles in, so no.

Lowe is a phenomenally good tackler at 13 regardless of his size - his relative lack of bulk just makes it all the more impressive. Hopefully watching Hopper has encouraged him to try a bit more flair with ball in hand. Hopper is fearless in attack.



What exactly do you mean by that? Lots? quality? Personally I've not noticed him as being phenomenally good at anything but certainly a very good centre that I'm pleased we have. Does his phenominally good tackling outweigh Hopper's dangerous attacking to the extent you would play Lowe rather than the Hopper? Is Lowe's defence phenomenally better than Hopper's? I don't perceive that to be the case. As humble as my opinion might be. Not being aggressive or owt like!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Fursty (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 22:06
Lies, damn lies and ....
It's all very well posting the stats to compare the two but remember that George started against Sale and Glos in hard pitches when we had s field day whilst Hopper started against Sarries and Saints when we got a bit of a lesson.

All that said I think George is the better player at the moment, but I wouldn't discount Hopper, his first start for quins was away at Glos in the HC and despite being run over by big Les a few times he kept coming back for more and scored a very important try just before halftime. Considering this has been his first season of top flight rugby he's done extremely well. Also I wouldn't forget that George had a bit of a shocker in his first few starts.

Basically were very lucky to have 2 of the best attacking 13s in England.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
JB1 (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 22:52
Lowe operates well at the breakdown as well!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 23:04
I thinks it's quite obvious, regardless of the stats which prove the same, that Hopper is a poor defender.

On the plus side I'd say he's been a bit better than Lowe in attack, but he misses a shed load of tackles and for my money that's simply not good enough regardless of everything else.



Reinstate the Fulham 1!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
poorfour (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 23:13
Lowe is seriously underrated as an attacker. He isn't as visible as Hopper, but his ability to spot a gap and glide through astonishes me, for one. He's also very, very good at being in just the right place to take a pass or offload.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
14 February, 2012 23:17
"Isn't as visible as Hopper" means only one thing to me - Hopper has been better!



Reinstate the Fulham 1!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
ianco (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 06:38
The worst thing to happen this season wasn't George Lowe's injury it was Karl Dickson.

George Lowe is a good but not briliant defender, he is very fast. He uses his speed to pick off forwards in the back line. He is three seasons into his career. I would be very surprised if he had an international career.

Matt Hopper is a less good defender, but is far from poor. He misses some tackles, but all outside centres do, and you notice them. He isn't as fast as George Lowe, but has a step and can beat top quality international defenders. He is in his first season of top division rugby and will get better. He probably won't be an international either.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 09:14
There's no getting away from the fact that so far Hopper has missed loads of tackles. "Less good" doesn't come into it!



Reinstate the Fulham 1!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:08
Quote:
kevin
What exactly do you mean by that? Lots? quality?

Makes a lot of tackles, makes a lot of "dominant" aggressive tackles, doesn't struggle against bigger players (for example his complete shutdown of Matt Banahan). His positioning is also spot-on.

Quote:
Does his phenominally good tackling outweigh Hopper's dangerous attacking to the extent you would play Lowe rather than the Hopper?

Yes, because aside from his undoubted defence capabilities he has an excellent try scoring record for Quins. As you know I do consider defence - particularly at 13 - to be vital and Lowe would get ahead of him every time for me. I don't think we lose that much in attack as a result either.

Quote:
Is Lowe's defence phenomenally better than Hopper's? I don't perceive that to be the case. As humble as my opinion might be. Not being aggressive or owt like!

I do think Hopper's defence is terrible and Lowe's is superb, so yes I believe there's a massive gap between them in that respect. I believe the difference in attack is much smaller.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
alwaysskint (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:37
This discussion is what I like about this board long may it continue ( the conviviality not the thread!).
For what its worth I think that some consideration ought to be given to the extra strain on the 12`s who have had to cover MH during his lapses.
Do we put these down to exuberance or lack of discipline, an(Sm111)d should we give MH any slack on this given he`s 27(?)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:43
Hopper is one of the older players yes, but he's also far less experienced at this level so it's possible he can learn faster as he's being exposed to new things constantly.

I think it cancels out smiling smiley



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:44
WHy is the loss of Karl Dickson more noticeable than the loss of Lowe?

We had the current Eng 9 to fill his boots as opposed to when Lowe went injured we had a guy who had no premiership experience fill his boots?

Bizarre - one is covered by a guy with 30+caps for his country, the other by a guy who has only just made it to the top league.

Hoppper being in his first season of top flight rugby at 26(i think) over Lowe in his 3rd at 22(i think) also make a big difference.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:46
That strikes me as a bit backwards - Karl is the cover for Danny, not the other way round. Even if you think Karl's a better player (and this season I think there's a good case for saying that, but I'm not completely certain) the club don't view him as the number one choice.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
alwaysskint (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:49
"Hopper is one of the older players yes, but he's also far less experienced at this level so it's possible he can learn faster as he's being exposed to new things constantly."

Old dogs new tricks ?

Time will tell.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 11:55
He's not that old! In his prime really. Just a question of whether he learns fast enough and whether he can improve physically at the same time.

It's really tough for those coming up from lower leagues to cope with the pace and power of top flight rugby, especially for backs. He's coped with the pace...



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
The Kid (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 12:11
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
WHy is the loss of Karl Dickson more noticeable than the loss of Lowe?
We had the current Eng 9 to fill his boots as opposed to when Lowe went injured we had a guy who had no premiership experience fill his boots?

Bizarre - one is covered by a guy with 30+caps for his country, the other by a guy who has only just made it to the top league.

Hoppper being in his first season of top flight rugby at 26(i think) over Lowe in his 3rd at 22(i think) also make a big difference.

We play a lot better with Dickson in the team and he's not alone in thinking that. DC has his benefits but KD has outshone him this year. And last time I looked, care isn;t the current england number 9 and that's entirely his own fault.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
alwaysskint (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 12:43
Fully understand what your saying he is in his prime but without (imho) the full skill set. But hey I`m not pressing the point he does provide an entertainment value although I`m sure JTH and TC would appreciate some of the slack hes been cut.
Do you think that JTH or TC would get away with the missed tackle count in the same way or do you think its more a function of the position. I ask this because a find it quite anoying when MH is touted for 12 , that I think would be a step too far .

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 12:43
I don't think we play better with Dicko in the team. But at the start of the season DC was not available. WHen Dicko was injured - Danny came in for him.

I accept that Youngs is the current 9, but at the time, DC was his No.2 & Youngs was injured.

I don;t think KD has outshone him at all this season - i think his consistent performance has brought the best out of DC.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 12:54
Quote:
Fursty
Lies, damn lies and ....
It's all very well posting the stats to compare the two but remember that George started against Sale and Glos in hard pitches when we had s field day whilst Hopper started against Sarries and Saints when we got a bit of a lesson.

All that said I think George is the better player at the moment, but I wouldn't discount Hopper, his first start for quins was away at Glos in the HC and despite being run over by big Les a few times he kept coming back for more and scored a very important try just before halftime. Considering this has been his first season of top flight rugby he's done extremely well. Also I wouldn't forget that George had a bit of a shocker in his first few starts.

Basically were very lucky to have 2 of the best attacking 13s in England.

Stats rarely lie (in sport).
I don't remember ever having a discussion about George's defensive frilties.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
The Kid (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 13:11
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Fursty
Lies, damn lies and ....
It's all very well posting the stats to compare the two but remember that George started against Sale and Glos in hard pitches when we had s field day whilst Hopper started against Sarries and Saints when we got a bit of a lesson.

All that said I think George is the better player at the moment, but I wouldn't discount Hopper, his first start for quins was away at Glos in the HC and despite being run over by big Les a few times he kept coming back for more and scored a very important try just before halftime. Considering this has been his first season of top flight rugby he's done extremely well. Also I wouldn't forget that George had a bit of a shocker in his first few starts.

Basically were very lucky to have 2 of the best attacking 13s in England.

Stats rarely lie (in sport).
I don't remember ever having a discussion about George's defensive frilties.

Hopper made 3 missed 3 at the weekends and carried twice for no gain. Lowe made all 5 of his tackles and 11 metres from the same amount of carries in less than half the time. No comparison.

Hopper is normally good going forward but he had a bad one on saturday. Lowe made a couple of defensive howlers in his first season (missed tackles on the wing mainly and not marking the last man properly) but toughened up much faster than hopper has. Lowe's tackling wasn't a problem for long and he's now very solid. Hopper has had a lot of rugby and hasn't got much better.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
ianco (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 13:12
I think Quins do play better with Kark as scrum half. He makes fewer mistakes than Danny. The ball seems to move more quickly when he is there. And because he doesn't take as much on himself he is more often at the back of a ruck where Danny would be under 60 stones of forwards.

When George Lowe was injured Hopper came in and started troubling defences and scoring tries.

When Karl Dickson was injured an out of form Danny came in, who wasn't up to the speed of the game, who got caught with the ball and who landed his box kicks straight into to touch rather too often.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 13:22
Ianco,

It might also be a factor, that when Danny returned from injury, the pitches were noticeably softer than when Karl was fit.

The only like for like comparisons we have are right now. Even then, Karl comes on against a tiring defence, when quick width is more essential, rather than Danny's pace which keeps the back row honest.

They are slightly different players, both playing very well, and I'm happy when either of them is starting.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 13:45
Ianco, i have to agree that it is shocking, that Dc took a couple of games to get up to speed, what with missing all the pre-season and first couple of months of the season with injury!
(Sm161)

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
ianco (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 13:58
Well, there's me told.

Danny makes more mistakes than Karl Dickson. He misses more tackles, misdirects more kicks and gets caught with the ball more often. There is no sarcasm here.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
bra'tac of chulak (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 14:57
Care also scores more tries; makes more breaks; creates more tries; makes more metres, etc., etc., ....

The point is that they are 2 very different players.

Dickson has good basic skills. He is a solid, old-fashioned scrum-half who provides a reliable service to his fly-half but it does make Quins more predictable. Opponents know that predominantly Quins will "play off 10". If NEv plays well Quins will prosper.

Care has the skill set of a fly-half but lacks the physique. However it does mean that Quins have 2 playmakers on the pitch and have the added option to "play off 9". This keeps opponents guessing as to where the next attack will come from.

Saturday's first try against Irish perfectly illustrates this. Early on in the move Quins were on the 10m line in the Irish half. By "playing off 10" initially Quins went from Care to Evans to Williams so in 2 passes the ball had gone 20m back behind the gain-line. Williams' great run took him back over the gain-line and put Irish on the back foot. Quick ball then enabled Care to "play off 9" by rolling round the side of the ruck and make 5m before the miss pass to Easter which created the overlap with Wallace which led to Casson's try.

Don't forget that Care already has 20 Premiership tries to his name at a strike rate slightly better than 1 every 4 games. In the Premiership era the only scrum-halves with a better strike rate are Andy Nicol (Bath) & Garry Armstrong (Newcastle) and they played in the early days of the Premiership when, I suspect, defences were not as well organised as they are now. Dickson has scored 1 try in 28 Premiership appearances. Perhaps somebody could tell me where the stats are for try assists.

Care takes more risks than Dickson so inevitably he makes more mistakes which is in line with the high tempo / high risk strategy that Quins favour.

You pay your money, you take your choice !!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 15/02/2012 16:00 by bra'tac of chulak.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 18:35
Well said Bra'tac - Other opinions are available, but i agree with yours.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Still watching (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 18:43
Precisely! Some people prefer one and some people pefer the other and everyone has a right to their opinion.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
kevin (IP Logged)
15 February, 2012 22:37
And some preferences are more right than other preferences.

KD is better currently than DC.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
PQ2 (IP Logged)
16 February, 2012 08:50
-All that's as maybe, but let's get back on topic & discuss how we feel about Matt Hopper at scrum half.

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
kevin (IP Logged)
16 February, 2012 08:59
Quote:
PQ2
-All that's as maybe, but let's get back on topic & discuss how we feel about Matt Hopper at scrum half.

I think he would be awful at scrum half but would probably get to rucks very quickly!

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
16 February, 2012 10:49
Kevin, think you forgot the smiley there!

"some preferences are more right than other preferences"

 
Re: Matt Hopper Let's discuss
kevin (IP Logged)
16 February, 2012 13:30
winking smiley

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