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OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: The Prof (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 13:08

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has given the all clear for Barnet Council to issue planning permission for Saracensí revival of Copthall Stadium.

The Planning and Environment Committee of Barnet Council approved the plans on 2 February this year and the Mayor of London subsequently confirmed that he did not wish to intervene. The sign off from the Secretary of State was the last hurdle before planning permission could be issued.

Reacting to the news, Nigel Wray, chairman of Saracens, said:

ďWe are obviously delighted that the Secretary of State has confirmed that our planning application can be determined at local level, in line with the spirit of localism. We now hope that the formal decision will be issued by Barnet Council over the coming days.

ďThe comprehensive sporting and community benefits of our proposals have been recognised at every stage of the decision making process. We will create a vibrant sports hub for the local community, offering great facilities free of charge for local schools. We will also provide a hugely improved athletics venue for Shaftesbury Barnet Harriers and make a real home for Saracens.

ďWe have engaged with local residents throughout the life of this project and we will continue to do so as we move forward. We want to provide a facility that the whole community can be proud of...and that's a promise."

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: deadlyfrom5yardsout (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 13:25

Thats very good news. I hope there's no last minute hitches at local level.



Adventure before Dementia!

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Samquin (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 23:19

I look forward to visiting at the small Copthall in the future. But this weekend it will be the Big Copthall.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Nicksb (IP Logged)
Date: 28 March, 2012 23:26

Good news for Sarries and rugby in general. It looks like it'll be a great venue. They've sold approx 88k tickets for this weekend which is tremendous achievement too.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Graeme D (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 07:13

Quote:
Nicksb
Good news for Sarries and rugby in general. It looks like it'll be a great venue. They've sold approx 88k tickets for this weekend which is tremendous achievement too.

Great achievement for both clubs this year, ok not all of them attending the two Quins/Sarries matches this year are die hard week in and week out supporters but it is spreading the game to more people.



Graeme

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 08:03

thanks for your support, guys - much appeciated by we Fez wearing ones!

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Samquin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:22

I wonder if there is mileage in having our own Bigmatch double header with Sarries as an annual event. It is staggering to think the two games this season will have had over 170,000 fans.

Well done both clubs in promoting the game.

I do wonder though if the 10,000 ceiling at Copthall is too low for the future development of the Sarries fan base

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Monte (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 13:26

Big difference between Big Game and the match at Wembley is the number of freebies for Wembley - if you have an Aviva policy and many many others. Jon always said that was NOT the case for Big Game we sold ours.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Squirrel Nutquin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 14:04

Did I hear that Copthall will have an astro surface to play on?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: GazzaFez (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 18:02

Quote:
Nicksb
Good news for Sarries and rugby in general .

I'm glad you guys see it that way. I certainly do; any improvement in grounds and facilities not only helps grow the game but makes life more tolerable for those of us who are going to show up anyway. In the same vein I was gutted for Pests earlier this season when they had their Booker/Wycombe Air Park development turned down. I thought it was sound and in many ways less controversial than Copthall so I guess we should be very thankful.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 18:29

Booker was not sound. To start with it was on green belt land. On top of that the tax payer had to foot a large section of the costs. After that, Wasps would still have been paying rent to Steve Hayes, who would also be getting income from the rest of the site, (Hotel, shops and flats I think).

The whole thing would have left Wasps no better off, Wanderers worse off, the people of Wycombe worse off, the environment worse off. But Steve Hayes would have been very very happy.



I do know that none of the above is definitely a fact, and only the people involved will know the facts. I am also aware that there are other options on how things may have happened. But on the evidence available, I believe this is how events unfolded. I am not saying that any other views are definitely wrong, and if more evidence or a better argued opinion is brought forward, I reserve the right to change my opinion.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Jammy Git (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 18:35

Nice sig HQ (Sm100)

Good luck to Sarries. The ground can be expanded, can't it? No point rattling around with 7k empty seats right from the start, gotta build it up. S'what we've done.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Samquin (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 18:57

Quote:
Squirrel Nutquin
Did I hear that Copthall will have an astro surface to play on?

I think it is not 100% astro but a mix. I suppose you may call it high tech grass. Might be interesting to see how it holds up with scrums.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Beckenham Wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 20:27

Just for clarification some aspects of the Booker development were sensible, others less so. However the real issue was that Steve Hayes was using Wasps and Wycombe Wanders as a Trojan horse for a real estate deal on which he would have made an absolute killing. He effectively trying to build a whole new village next to the M40.

I believe that Saracens are proposing to use an artificial pitch similar to the one used by Widnes in the Super League. 3 or 4 generation which is soft and lubricated by rubber pellets. They have been using them in American Football for years.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 20:55

That's a worry that it's the same type of pitch they have been using in American Football for years. I was under the impression that it was cutting edge, not years old.

Some very nasty injuries have been caused in American Football, mostly due to the increased level of grip you can achieve on these synthetic surfaces. The result being the joint breaks before the grip give way. On grass, the grip is less so footing give way before someones joint.

Unless Beckenham Wasp is wrong?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Nicksb (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 21:01

I'm not sure American Football is an appropriate sport to compare to rugby but the pitch is IRB approved. In theory it should suit Quins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 22:01 by Nicksb.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Convex Hull (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 21:56

It is an artificial pitch, no grass. I seem to recall that it is not 4th generation, which I don't think has been approved for rugby, but a sort of 3+.

THE IRB and RFU are all for it, and have approved it, it remains to be seen if it turns out well.

This is not Sarries being perverse, it is a mandatory requirement - as they would not have got planning permission unless they made the stadium freely available to the community for continuous use.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Beckenham Wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 29 March, 2012 22:41

Here is the link to the pitch used by Widnes.

[www.dessosports.com]

The Artificial turf of choice in the NFL 'FieldTurf'.

[www.fieldturf.us]

It will be interesting to see how Saracens get on with it. I am not sure it is ideal but I am fairly open minded.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Squirrel Nutquin (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 00:08

Heath Quinn that sounds nasty - also, could the surface cause some fairly unpleasant burn marks on the players' skin?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Convex Hull (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 04:27

Both IRB and RFU are quite adamant that there is no evidence of an increased number of injuries, quite the reverse, in fact.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 08:01

CH, fair enough, that's sort of what I thought. Having played competitive Hockey into quite recently, I'm familiar with developments in Astroturf. It's just when Beckenham Wasps said it was the type they've used for years in American Football I was concerned.

Personally, if it's as good as they say, then great, the sooner Sale get one the better!

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Fursty (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 08:24

Why are Sarries being praised for the Copthall stadium?Building a stadium that only holds 10,000 shows absolutely no desire to build a club or a fan base that is financailly sustainable going forward. It also sticks two fingers up to all those Championship teams that would be denied entry to the Prem with a grounds this size.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: bazster (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 10:58

Quote:
Fursty
Why are Sarries being praised for the Copthall stadium?Building a stadium that only holds 10,000 shows absolutely no desire to build a club or a fan base that is financailly sustainable going forward. It also sticks two fingers up to all those Championship teams that would be denied entry to the Prem with a grounds this size.

At least try to get your facts right. 10,000 is the criterion for the premiership.

As for your other poisonous comments, I daresay Sarries would've been delighted if you'd donated the land for a 15,000 seater stadium somewhere in the vicinity of North London, complete with planning permission. What's that you say? You don't have such a plot of land to donate? Well surely if you're so smart you must have some practicable alternative to propose? Stay at the Watford sh*thole perhaps?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Fursty (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 11:23

Can you run a club that pays up to the salary cap on a crowd of 10,000 in a financially sustainable way? No it appears not (given the Financial Statements of Quins and others in the league).

So what is moving to a Stadium that holds 10,000 going to achieve in the long term? Well one thing it is going to ensure is that for the next 10 years at least Sarries donít have a big enough ground to break even.

Iím beginning to see why the likes of Leicester are really peeved at the salary cap when some clubs obviously don't appear to want to even attempt to makes themselves financially sustainable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2012 11:36 by Fursty.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Fursty (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 11:26

And in response to whether I have any other solutions Ė Yes look outside North London, after all not being in London hasnít been an issue for the last decade

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 11:29

Don't be so precious Bazster. It's hardly a poisonous comment, it's not even nasty.

10,000 may well be the current standard, but in the long form agreement it was set to rise to 15,000 by 2012, or 2014, I can't remember. If your telling me that this has all changed then fair enough.

But even so, 10,000 is fairly small change, especially as it has to generate an extra £ 6,000,000 per year so your current business model can break even.

And since when is it a Harlequins supports responsibility to provide Saffacens with stadium that allows growth and conforms to the Long form agreement? Your owner has more money than god, and can happily burn 6 mill a year, why can't he do it?

For the record, I'm happy for you, it certainly is a step up from Watford which can only be a good thing for rugby.

But you need to wind your neck in and realise that just because some one doesn't think what you think it doesn't make them poisonous, it doesn't even necessarily make them wrong. Fursty's comments are perfectly reasonable.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Josef K (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 11:56

The majority of posts on this thread are positive and appreciated. We're all excited about having somewhere to call home, but shouldn't be too thin-skinned about questions and/or adverse comments from supporters of other Clubs.

The capacity point is a reasonable one but Wembley, providing we remain reasonably successful, remains very much part of the equation. Similarly, you guys have HQ. Without being patronising - at least that's not my intention - there's not an equivalent option for many Championship Clubs if promoted.

The perspective of many on our Board seems to be that if we can get 10,000 regularly (accepting that ticket prices will increase steadily to achieve a break-even position) that's a price worth paying. Literally.

Hoping for an enjoyable game tomorrow. If we could both end up getting home draws and try for bragging rights again in May, I'd settle for that now. Not sure it'll be quite that simple though.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: raedarius (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 12:21

In terms of alternative location, I was surprised that RAF Uxbridge wasn't suitable.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Convex Hull (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 13:36

Quote:
Fursty
Can you run a club that pays up to the salary cap on a crowd of 10,000 in a financially sustainable way? No it appears not (given the Financial Statements of Quins and others in the league).
So what is moving to a Stadium that holds 10,000 going to achieve in the long term? Well one thing it is going to ensure is that for the next 10 years at least Sarries donít have a big enough ground to break even.

Iím beginning to see why the likes of Leicester are really peeved at the salary cap when some clubs obviously don't appear to want to even attempt to makes themselves financially sustainable.

How do you know that it is financially unsustainable? Saracens will be playing in front of very large crowds in Cape Town next year, they have turned Wembley into a profitable event.

There is more than one way of skinning a cat, and revenues from AP matches is just one of many options.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Fursty (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 18:03

Quote:
Convex Hull
Quote:
Fursty
Can you run a club that pays up to the salary cap on a crowd of 10,000 in a financially sustainable way? No it appears not (given the Financial Statements of Quins and others in the league).
So what is moving to a Stadium that holds 10,000 going to achieve in the long term? Well one thing it is going to ensure is that for the next 10 years at least Sarries donít have a big enough ground to break even.

Iím beginning to see why the likes of Leicester are really peeved at the salary cap when some clubs obviously don't appear to want to even attempt to makes themselves financially sustainable.

How do you know that it is financially unsustainable? Saracens will be playing in front of very large crowds in Cape Town next year, they have turned Wembley into a profitable event.

There is more than one way of skinning a cat, and revenues from AP matches is just one of many options.

I doubt Sarries have made Wembly into a profitable event, they might have well have just tipped it so that it provides a positive contribution but given that theres a finite number of games in the year it is most likely far from profitable.

As for playing games in Cape Town, good luck with that, I know I wouldn't want to support a team that ships all of their biggest matches off to a Country many thousands of miles away. Great way to reward the supporters who turn up week in week out.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Convex Hull (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 19:45

Well, you say Wembley isn't profitable, and the entire Saracens management and Nigel Wray have been saying that the top tier is all profit for several years.

I would like a trip to Cape Town, more fun than Newport in the Anglo Welsh



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Jammy Git (IP Logged)
Date: 30 March, 2012 19:53

Quote:
Convex Hull
I would like a trip to Cape Town, more fun than Newport in the Anglo Welsh

Good point. I demand an Amlin match on the moon.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Josef K (IP Logged)
Date: 31 March, 2012 08:22

... there'd be no atmosphere!

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Tomp (IP Logged)
Date: 31 March, 2012 08:38

All I know is that getting in and out of the Stadium will be a nightmare. The track in and out of Copthall leads on to a narrow residential street.

The traffic jams will be enough to put off the most dedicated Sarries supporter.

"The temptation to present numerous off-street parking locations Ė which will be seen by some
as positively encouraging car travel Ė should be avoided. The level of car trip generation in
the busiest hours before and after a game, at 623 and 833 vehicle trips respectively, should
disperse very quickly into the local road network with little impact on delays or congestion.
The overall car parking demand, at 1,182 spaces for spectators, could be provided locally
to the stadium site. There will also be an operational requirement for some 150 spaces for
players, officials and staff;"

I am really glad that I don't live on Greenlands Lane!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 31/03/2012 09:06 by Tomp.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: TeddingtonQuin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 March, 2012 09:20

Well done to Sarries for getting this sorted, it will be very good for them and hopefully the game as a whole.

I too was surprised at the capacity of just 10,000 but there is surely scope for expansion.

 
Re: OTish - Secretary of State gives green light to Copthall Revival
Posted by: Harley Quin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 March, 2012 22:29

If Sarries think this is the way forward for them then I am happy for them. I think it's good for the league that each team progresses in terms of infrastructure etc. If they fill the stadium regularly then presumably they have a plan to deal with that. As has been previously stated, Wembley offers the potential for a big game venue.

Maybe it's not perfect, but life rarely is. It's got to be better than Watford for Sarries and away fans too.

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