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Top of Premiership
Lawyerquin (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 09:39
I don't want to get carried away (yet) but is there any thing for coming top of the Premiership if we are still there at the end of the season (regardless of how we get on the play-offs)? A pennant or something to reward being top for the whole season? Maybe the club could do something if Aviva/Premier Rugby don't?

 
Re: Top of Premiership
PQ2 (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 10:04
Yes. You get doubly p'ed off if you don't win the play-offs. (Sm19)

 
Re: Top of Premiership
DOK (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 10:21
Nicely put PQ2! I've always thought the RFU could surely drum up a sponsor for a cup for winning the league. I guess the clubs don't want to detract from the play-offs deciding the outcome.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
DazzaS (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 10:46
I know the Super League used to give out a trophy for finishing top in rugby league. But in other sports if you finished top that was it you were officially classed as the best team in the country with no play off malarky rubbish, It is great if you finish fourth but terrible if you finished first.

Saying that though, even though Saracens finished second last season they won more games and lost less games than Leicester who finished first. It was the bonus points system which made Leicester first and not second. I wonder how the table would look this season if the bonus point structure was taken away...



Harlequins 62
Saracens 54
Leicester 50
Northampton 48
Exeter 44
Gloucester 34
BATH 32
SALE 32
WORCESTER 30
LONDON IRISH25
Wasps 20
Newcastle 20

Bath and Sale are in capitals because they would have swapped based on difference between points scared and conceded and Worcester and London Iirish are in capitals because they would have swapped due to bonus points no longer existing with Irish accumulating 11 bonus points- 9 of them losing bonus points!!!

Sorry for going off on a tangent there but makes interesting reading. For me it does anyway!

 
Re: Top of Premiership
GrubbyQuin (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 14:54
I think Quins did pretty well last season on losing BPs. If we didn't finsh 2010/11 with the highest number of LBPs we weren't far off.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Arlecchino (IP Logged)
01 April, 2012 17:52
Quote:
GrubbyQuin
I think Quins did pretty well last season on losing BPs. If we didn't finsh 2010/11 with the highest number of LBPs we weren't far off.

Quins 8
Leeds 7
Chiefs, Sharks, Falcons 5



Nunquam Dormio

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Rich W (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 08:20
We've been saying it for years - nice to have you on side. There should be a reward for finishing in first place - the achievement - whosoever's it is - should be recognised.



...
To begin at the beginning:

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless
and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched,
courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboatbobbing sea.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
PQ2 (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 08:47
_____________________________________________________________

..."I must go down to the seas again,
To the lonely seas and the sky.
I left my vest and socks there,
I wonder if they're dry?"
-Milligan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2012 08:49 by PQ2.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 08:48
Quote:
I know the Super League used to give out a trophy for finishing top in rugby league. But in other sports if you finished top that was it you were officially classed as the best team in the country with no play off malarky rubbish

In how many of these other sports do teams lose players to international sides while still playing league matches?



BB

 
Re: Top of Premiership
kevin (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 10:57
the competition is nothing at all to do with being top. It is a competition about getting a place in the top four, the first stage of a two stage season. The reward being then eligible for entry in a competition to be top team, the second and ultimate competition.

Wasps played it right, do enough to be top four then win the ultimate separate competition.

Why after all these years are we still discussing something that does not exist ie winning the league?

 
Re: Top of Premiership
baggie (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 12:09
The concept does exist of awarding a trophy to the team that finishes top of the league in the regular season prior to the commencement of the play-offs ... but it is mainly an Australian or American idea

[en.wikipedia.org]

 
Re: Top of Premiership
feeler (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 12:13
[quote kevin]the competition is nothing at all to do with being top. It is a competition about getting a place in the top four, the first stage of a two stage season. The reward being then eligible for entry in a competition to be top team, the second and ultimate competition.

Wasps played it right, do enough to be top four then win the ultimate separate competition.

Why after all these years are we still discussing something that does not exist ie winning the league?[/quote]

Well the cynic in me might suggest that it is because this is the year when Quins are likely to finish top.

Its easier to point out that it counts for nothing when it's not affecting your own team.

If you finish top I hope that your able to go on and finish the job at Twickenham.

If however it all blows up and a suspect call from a ref costs you the title then remember that your management voted for that very system.

You would be joining clubs such as Bath, Gloucester, Sarries and Tigers who have finished top and lost out on status of League champions.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Rich W (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 12:20
As the only club that voted against the Pay Offs (sic) on their inception we at Tigers have a history of agonising over this subject.

My view fwiw is that the 'second stage' competition argument is invalidated by the impact that this has on fixtures in the regular season (with some fixtures clearly prioritised over others) and in separating that 'stage' into two leagues - those who are playing for league positions below the top four and those with ambitions to make stage 2.



...
To begin at the beginning:

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless
and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched,
courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboatbobbing sea.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
DazzaS (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 12:23
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
I know the Super League used to give out a trophy for finishing top in rugby league. But in other sports if you finished top that was it you were officially classed as the best team in the country with no play off malarky rubbish

In how many of these other sports do teams lose players to international sides while still playing league matches?

Cricket leaps to mind! Only time i see the clubs get their international stars is during the T20 tournament.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 13:14
Quote:
DPsychoS
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
I know the Super League used to give out a trophy for finishing top in rugby league. But in other sports if you finished top that was it you were officially classed as the best team in the country with no play off malarky rubbish

In how many of these other sports do teams lose players to international sides while still playing league matches?

Cricket leaps to mind! Only time i see the clubs get their international stars is during the T20 tournament.

Good point. And since I'm a cricket fan I should got that one. smiling smiley



BB

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 13:18
Quote:
Rich W
My view fwiw is that the 'second stage' competition argument is invalidated by the impact that this has on fixtures in the regular season (with some fixtures clearly prioritised over others) and in separating that 'stage' into two leagues - those who are playing for league positions below the top four and those with ambitions to make stage 2.

I'm struggling to understand this (what do you actually mean by "the second stage competition argument"), but it sounds circular to me. You seem to be saying there should be no stage 2 because it alters teams' approach to stage 1, and you like stage 1. Which just amounts to "I like stage 1 so there should be no stage 2". Sorry if I have just misunderstood.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
gregory p (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 13:21
But the big difference with cricket is that the main England squad is centrally contracted to England (and their wages paid by England) so the Counties can't argue too much about the limited availability of the England players.

In short Counties can recruit and pay around that struture quite equally, whereas losing players to the England rugby team is out of the clubs' hands and is made worse by the salary cap.

I can see good arguments for the RFU putting central contracts in place.......oops Nigel Wray's about to explode

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 13:24
I knew it would all be the fault of the salary cap (Sm13)

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:15
If you're top you're by definition the best. Unfortunately the record books will only support this if you win the pay-offs.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:31
Quote:
If you're top you're by definition the best.

Only if that's what everyone is aiming for and it's a level playing field, i.e. no international call-ups.



BB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2012 14:32 by Brown Bottle.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:34
These Leicester folks are all bang on message aren't they? (Sm13)

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Rich W (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:35
Quote:
Quin Like Flint
Quote:
Rich W
My view fwiw is that the 'second stage' competition argument is invalidated by the impact that this has on fixtures in the regular season (with some fixtures clearly prioritised over others) and in separating that 'stage' into two leagues - those who are playing for league positions below the top four and those with ambitions to make stage 2.

I'm struggling to understand this (what do you actually mean by "the second stage competition argument"), but it sounds circular to me. You seem to be saying there should be no stage 2 because it alters teams' approach to stage 1, and you like stage 1. Which just amounts to "I like stage 1 so there should be no stage 2". Sorry if I have just misunderstood.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. The 'second stage argument' is that the league stage and the pay-offs are separate stages - as suggested above - and that the league phase is only a qualifying competition.

What I'm saying though is not really anything to do with my liking or otherwise of the play-offs but that their existence alters teams' approach to the league whereby they target some games over others - knowing that a top four finish is adequate. Unfortunately for the supporter you can never know which games are deemed important.

But also there are issues in that by separating the competition into two stages you split the league - because by default the entire league isn't playing for top 4 positions - into two separate groups. I don't happen to think that's healthy.



...
To begin at the beginning:

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless
and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched,
courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboatbobbing sea.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:39
Brown Bottle - I take your point and strongly support arguments to improve the intregrity of the AP competition (by not having a disrupted program). But at the end of the day if you are top of the league after 22 games you are the best - in the circumstances prevailing. The possibility that you do or do not win a couple more games does not change that fact.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 14:43
Quote:
Rich W
The 'second stage argument' is that the league stage and the pay-offs are separate stages - as suggested above - and that the league phase is only a qualifying competition.

That isn't an "argument" though is it? It is a statement of fact. It isn't how everyone would like it to be, but it is how the competition is currently organised.

Quote:
What I'm saying though is not really anything to do with my liking or otherwise of the play-offs but that their existence alters teams' approach to the league whereby they target some games over others - knowing that a top four finish is adequate. Unfortunately for the supporter you can never know which games are deemed important.

Just like the different priorities that are applied to all league and cup games through a season depending on a team's current standing in each comp? Hardly something supporters find very troubling is it?

Quote:
But also there are issues in that by separating the competition into two stages you split the league - because by default the entire league isn't playing for top 4 positions - into two separate groups. I don't happen to think that's healthy.

You would rather split it according to who has the most money, yes?

 
Re: Top of Premiership
ianco (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 15:13
There is a prize for being top - a play off place against the team that finished fourth at home.

This thread reminds me of pensioners complaining about the queueing system that was introduced in the Post Office thirty years ago.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Stooperman (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 15:59
Quote:
ianco
There is a prize for being top - a play off place against the team that finished fourth at home.
This thread reminds me of pensioners complaining about the queueing system that was introduced in the Post Office thirty years ago.

Have they got to the front of the queue yet?

 
Re: Top of Premiership
poorfour (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 16:38
Quote:
Rich W
But also there are issues in that by separating the competition into two stages you split the league - because by default the entire league isn't playing for top 4 positions - into two separate groups. I don't happen to think that's healthy.

I don't see that that necessarily follows.

Firstly, it's hard to think of a sport in which every team enters the season aiming for the same goal. Different teams will always have different playing and financial resources, and therefore different goals. For every team to begin the year with a realistic chance of winning the league, you need no relegation (so effectively a franchise system) and some means of evening up playing resources (like gridiron does with the draft).

In fact the AP, for all its distortions, is one of the best leagues for competitiveness anywhere. It doesn't have the huge resourcing distortions of the roundball premiership, the Magners or the Top 14. At the outset of the season, 10 of the 12 teams would have had hopes of a Top 4 finish - which is more than in most professional leagues.

Secondly, prioritisation of certain games happens all the time in professional sport. Tennis players and golfers pick and choose their tournaments. Football teams and Rabo teams prioritise some competitions over others. It's even been shown to happen in sumo (pace Freakonomics).

I'm pretty sure that Quins change their training regime to prioritise player welfare over winning during January and February. Rugby's an attritional game and is played in many different conditions. Nothing wrong with managing your performance to optimise the number of good performances over the course of a long season - and this would happen with or without the playoffs. The playoffs just give a team a different problem - in a first past the post league, you can gamble on building an early lead and then hanging on; with playoffs you have to ensure you've got a decent squad available for the endgame. Both routes will need coaches to prioritise. The playoff one probably has some benefit for player welfare in the long run, though.

Thirdly, until a couple of games ago, all but 3 teams were in the hunt for Top 4 or at least Top 6 places. Even now, only Bath and Worcester are going into the final three games with little to play for. When every result matters to 10 of your teams in the run in, it makes for an exciting sport. And this happens every year. For rugby to be viable as a professional sport in a football-dominated country, it helps for it to have a structure where as much as possible goes down to the wire.

In a first past the post league, it could well be over a month earlier - less interesting for the fans.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
PrestonTiger (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 17:39
Answer:- You get to know what it's like every year at Tigers !

Many bonus points come from playing to score tries, rather than repeatedly kicking the ball in the air and taking 3 points at ensueingresultant penalties (as sometime seen in the Watford area.)

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 18:02
Funny thing is, despite our undoubted attacking skill, we've scored very few try bonus points this season!



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Top of Premiership
04 April, 2012 18:55
I used to be narked off about the playoff structure. The purist in me still believes that if you come top at the end of the season then you're the best in the league therefore the "winner".

HOWEVER. I think two things have tempered this thought to my more pragmatic approach now:

1) My "purist" opinion is based largely on the Association Football model where - in the top flight at least - this is true. However, AF doesn't have bonus points and as has already been demonstrated on this thread, in Rugby you can have fewer wins, more losing bonus points / bonus points thanks to big wins, and still come top. So this largely renders my viewpoint redundant as I was still basing my vitrol on an apples v oranges platform.

2) Like it or not, the playoff structure has been in place now for, what, 5 years? It's not going away. For years I railed against the whole system (especially when Wasps came 4th after peaking at the end of the sharp end of the season and went on to win the playoffs and be crowned Premiership Champions) but now I figure it's quite simple: the "game" is no longer to come top at the end of the season, but instead to come in the top 4 - preferrably top 2 - at the end of the regular season and thence win the "cup semi" and "cup final" to be crowned Champions. That's the game. Play to the rules. If you don't like it, watch AF. *shrugs*



"Last one in's an Offiziere. No offence Sir."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2012 19:18 by Steeevo.

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Arlecchino (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 23:03
Quote:
Jammy Git
Funny thing is, despite our undoubted attacking skill, we've scored very few try bonus points this season!

Most of our BPs last year were losing BPs. You don't get them if you're winning.



Nunquam Dormio

 
Re: Top of Premiership
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
05 April, 2012 00:03
Quote:
Arlecchino
Quote:
Jammy Git
Funny thing is, despite our undoubted attacking skill, we've scored very few try bonus points this season!

Most of our BPs last year were losing BPs. You don't get them if you're winning.

Right, but given our reputation it's funny that we've had very few try bonus points.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Top of Premiership
PQ2 (IP Logged)
05 April, 2012 06:03
Quote:
gregory p
In short Counties can recruit and pay around that struture quite equally, whereas losing players to the England rugby team is out of the clubs' hands and is made worse by the salary cap.

- Eh? The England rugby team is full of cricket players? Well that explains EVERYTHING.....

(Sm7)

 
Re: Top of Premiership
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
05 April, 2012 21:26
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Arlecchino
Quote:
Jammy Git
Funny thing is, despite our undoubted attacking skill, we've scored very few try bonus points this season!

Most of our BPs last year were losing BPs. You don't get them if you're winning.

Right, but given our reputation it's funny that we've had very few try bonus points.

Very much agreed Jammy. But I'd be interested to see how many times we've scored 3? And more pertiniently, scored 3 with plenty of time remaining?


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