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Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 13:38
Now I know I wouldn't be saying this if Quins were fourth in the league and out of reach of third, but would it not make more sense for the team that finishes top to be given a 'bye' into the final and for the second and third placed teams to have a play-off for the final spot? This way, there's a genuine advantage in finishing top.

This is similar to the Football League play-off system whereby the first and second placed teams are automatically promoted and the third, fourth, fifth and sixth placed teams enter a play-off competition for the third and final promotion place.

Just a thought.

COYQ.

 
Re: Play-off system
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 13:45
It would achieve different things, most noticeably ruling out the possibility that a team that finishes fourth in the league can win the prem. I don't think that you can claim it "makes more sense" though. All depends on how much effect the international windows are deemed to have. Those don't overlap with the league in soccer do they?

 
Re: Play-off system
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 13:47
I think that's how it was in the first place.

I also seem to remember that the team winning the single 'semi' were reckoned to have had an advantage in the final because they hadn't just had a two week break from rugby.

No team coming first in the league went on to win the championship in those days.



BB

 
Re: Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 13:51
All interesting points.

I just think that the team that finishes top after 22 games should be rewarded with more than just a home semi (albeit against supposedly weaker opposition than the team that finished second will face).

 
Re: Play-off system
GrubbyQuin (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 13:56
And off we all pop again...

(Sm117)

 
Re: Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:00
Quote:
GrubbyQuin
And off we all pop again...
(Sm117)

A bit of healthy debate never goes amiss.

 
Re: Play-off system
Nigel_B (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:03
The play-offs are designed to make money. Having said that every club brought into the process, so even if we do top the league after 22 rounds we can only call ourselves championms having won the semi and final. It's as simple as that. I'm not a fan off the play-offs but have to accept them.

 
Re: Play-off system
Blank436 (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:08
I think now we have the EPS and too many internationals it's only fair - the regular season tests strength in depth then the play offs test the first XV.

 
Re: Play-off system
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:12
Quote:
The play-offs are designed to make money.

I agree. But they are also designed to mitigate the effects of international call-ups. I wouldn't like to say which was the primary driving force behind them. smiling smiley



BB

 
Re: Play-off system
JTD (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:13
Quote Mr Inquinible: This is similar to the Football League play-off system whereby the first and second placed teams are automatically promoted and the third, fourth, fifth and sixth placed teams enter a play-off competition for the third and final promotion place.


Actually, When the play-off system first started in football in the 1987-88 season, the teams in 1st and 2nd place were automatically promoted. The teams in 3rd and 4th played eachother over 2 legs and the winner of that played the team that finished 3rd from bottom of Division One at that time. That season Middlesbrough finished 3rd in Div 2 (now the championship) and beat Bradford over 2 legs. Their prize was to play Chelsea, who had finished 3rd from bottom, over 2 legs. They won 2-0 at Ayresome Park and lost 1-0 at Stamford Bridge, relegating Chelsea into Div 2 and getting themselves promoted into Div 1 (now the Premier League). This was the only year this happened. I'm actually still a fan of this system. I think it would work in rugby.

 
Re: Play-off system
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:13
Quote:
Nigel_B
The play-offs are designed to make money.

It's a professional league! There is more justification for our playoffs on sporting grounds than there is for e.g. the football league playoffs that mr IQ mentions.

 
Re: Play-off system
DOK (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:14
Yes, every club bought into the process. Democracy fulfilled!

Actually, since every club shares the revenue from the play offs, why wouldn't they vote for money for nothing? With six+ clubs at least unlikely ever to worry about winning the league in the near future, should they vote for more money or worry about the league winner? I wonder how long they spent pondering...

 
Re: Play-off system
Nigel_B (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:19
DOK, I did not appreciate that all clubs benefitted from the play-off revenues. Does this mean that all gate receipts from the Stoop (assuming Quins qualify as first or second) will get pooled with the other semi and final gatew receipts and then split 12 ways?

NB Presumably the club benefit from the rent charged to concessions and programmes and beers sold in the ground?

 
Re: Play-off system
ikdrf (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 14:57
I think there should be two recognised titles. The team comes top in the league is given the 'League title', the team who wins the play-offs is awarded the 'Premiership title' (or both if appropriate)

Also rugby may well want to consider a 'charity shield' style event to open the season with that has the two title holders playing each other or 1st and 2nd in the league. It could raise the games profile a bit and raise money for good causes.

 
Re: Play-off system
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 15:13
Quote:
DOK
.... since every club shares the revenue from the play offs...

Really? That doesn't seem right to me....

 
Re: Play-off system
DOK (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 15:21
I've been trying to find the definitive yes or no to that, but I believe I read it somewhere.

The clubs evenly share the money they get from the RFU for England players. So last season Saracens provided no England players but still got 1/12 of the money paid out by the RFU.

 
Re: Play-off system
Duncan Keene (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 15:33
Actually, 11 clubs voted for the playoffs and 1 voted against. The one that had won 3 league titles in a row and was top of the league and on their way to a 4th title!

 
Re: Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 15:36
Interesting article here from Shaun Edwards who is of course a big fan of the play-off system which is hardly a surprise considering how well it's worked out for Wasps over the past 10 years or so (Wasps were crowned English Champions in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2008 but did not finish top of the league in any of these seasons).

I think he makes some good points but I'll find it particularly difficult to take if we don't qualify for the final this season given how long we've occupied top spot.

 
Re: Play-off system
DOK (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 15:44
So far this is all I've found from when play offs were initially set up in 2001

Quote:
The majority of revenue generated from the seven Zurich Championship games will be pooled and distributed evenly among all 12 Premiership clubs

Of course we don't play quite that format anymore, so it could have changed. However it supports my unsubstantiated statement! smiling smiley

 
Re: Play-off system
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 16:18
Quote:
DOK
So far this is all I've found from when play offs were initially set up in 2001
Quote:
The majority of revenue generated from the seven Zurich Championship games will be pooled and distributed evenly among all 12 Premiership clubs

Of course we don't play quite that format anymore, so it could have changed. However it supports my unsubstantiated statement! smiling smiley

Your unsubstantiated statement is also in line with PRL's general policy towards money.



BB

 
Re: Play-off system
poorfour (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 16:36
I'm not sure that rings true, though.

Firstly, IIRC, the EPS money isn't shared completely evenly. I think the clubs do get some money in proportion to EPS members, but that a sizeable proportion of it is pooled and shared. The clubs voted for this, and it makes sense under the salary cap anyway (even for Leicester, shoring up their less solvent oppositions' finances is worth more in the long run than extra cash that they couldn't spend on the squad).

Secondly, given that two clubs get home semi finals anyway, isn't it more likely that the home gate goes to those clubs, and it's only the TV and Final revenues that are shared? It would seem very odd that a club would use its own ground for a game (incurring costs) and not get the revenue for it.

 
Re: Play-off system
Paul (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 16:46
I simply think that the play off system has kept more teams involved in the league for longer and keeps things interesting. For example, what difference would the saints chief game make in a few weeks. Currently it it looks like a potential 4th / 5th place decider!

I feel that the league has got closer and better over the last few years and the play offs has been a part of that.

 
Re: Play-off system
Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 16:49
The play offs are most justified in a World Cup year.

 
Re: Play-off system
Nicksb (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 16:51
The EPS money is shared evenly amongst all 12 Premiership Clubs.

 
Re: Play-off system
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 17:47
But the clubs providing players to the EPS also get a payment per player on top.

 
Re: Play-off system
quinsfan2 (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 19:38
first of all let me state i am not a fan of the play off system that said i accept it is a money spinner and for the time being it looks as if its here to stay, however what about the idea of the team in fourth playing the team in third, the winner then plays the team in second the winner then gets to play the team who came in first positon at the end of the season, this way the team at the top is rewarded by not having to play an extra 2 games as would be the case of the team in fourth position, giving them the extra time for resting their squad prior to the final and at least it would be seen as a form of reward for their efforts

 
Re: Play-off system
poorfour (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 19:47
It all depends what you think constitutes a reward QF2. if you're the CEO of a club, the revenue from a home semi is a reward you'd not want to pass up.

 
Re: Play-off system
quinsfan2 (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 19:55
thats fair comment poorfour, how about a percentage of the revenue from the first two play off games going directly to the top team prior to the final that could please any ceo

 
Re: Play-off system
Johns (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 19:59
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
But the clubs providing players to the EPS also get a payment per player on top.

The process is called smoothing, it is shared out between all 12 clubs.

It is time clubs learned to stand on their own feet.

 
Re: Play-off system
El Bombero (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 21:06
Quote:
ikdrf
I think there should be two recognised titles. The team comes top in the league is given the 'League title', the team who wins the play-offs is awarded the 'Premiership title' (or both if appropriate)

This is how it works in some sports in the UK. Ice-hockey, the EIHL was won this year by Guildford Flames, with the play-offs now an equal target. Having won the league cup as well, they're on for a treble, with all three titles given equal billing, rather than the cup and the play-offs.

Didn't RL have a system where a team could pick who they wanted to play in the play-offs, or something equally as mental?

 
Re: Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 21:18
Quote:
Paul
I simply think that the play off system has kept more teams involved in the league for longer and keeps things interesting. For example, what difference would the saints chief game make in a few weeks. Currently it it looks like a potential 4th / 5th place decider!
I feel that the league has got closer and better over the last few years and the play offs has been a part of that.

Agreed. But the point that I am trying to make is not that the play-off system should be scrapped altogether, but that the team that finishes top after 22 games should be rewarded with more than just a home semi against the forth placed team.

 
Re: Play-off system
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 23:22
Twas Gloucester who were humiliated by Wasps in the final after having not played for a few weeks.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Play-off system
Petros (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 07:06
And Bath lost a poor playoff final to Wasps who were knackered from beating Toulouse in the HEC final the week before.

But Wasps have also won finals having had a rest the week before!

 
Re: Play-off system
Quin Like Flint (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 08:51
I am looking forward to the play offs with the expectation that they have a good chance of determining the best current team. I think Quins fans, if they are being honest, cannot state with conviction that finishing first genuinely establishes us as the best team this year. We clearly got a boost from the RWC period, and Saints and Tigers in particular have been playing some good catch-up since. However, nor do I subscribe to the pessimism that has been flooding this board since the turn of the year. For me there is no inevitability about us being overhauled. Quins have made huge strides this year in terms of confidence, depth of squad and attitude. They are emerging from their growing up period and maturing into a team that has real belief in each other and their style of play. I think this all makes for a mouth-watering end to the season, with the prospect of Quins fulfilling their promise and proving, via the play offs, that they are the real deal.

 
Re: Play-off system
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 08:56
Pretty well summed up, QLF.



BB

 
Re: Play-off system
JTD (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 09:05
Tell you what though. I'd much rather we played Leicester or Northampton in the play-offs, should we get there. Exeter are looking dangerous, and we all know about Sarries!

 
Re: Play-off system
mr. inquinible (IP Logged)
04 April, 2012 09:30
Quote:
JTD
Tell you what though. I'd much rather we played Leicester or Northampton in the play-offs, should we get there. Exeter are looking dangerous, and we all know about Sarries!

Not sure about that JTD! Leicester are arguably the form team in the league at the moment having scored 22 tries in their last 4 games. Hopefully we can put pay to that at The Stoop on 21st April!

 
Re: Play-off system
Poodle watcher (IP Logged)
06 April, 2012 16:09
Oh dear oh dear, when I recently referred to Drunk Care as Drunk Care I received a private message from The Prof telling me this was not to continue and that it was ďvery unpleasant for his family who use this siteĒ.

I replied asking if he would be sending private messages to everyone (including himself) who posts comments in a similar vein which might upset someones family. He of course declined to answer the question but did say that he knew ďa lot more about the situation than you do.Ē I replied saying that he was acting like a pompous hypocrite and he of course banned me saying I had abused him. I had not and this is a lie.

If anyone doubts my word then please send me a private message (or email me at WatchingThePoodle@yahoo.co.uk) and I will happily send you a full copy of the private message correspondence which will prove that Mr Franklin is telling lies. Mind you you will probably need to be quick with private messages because no doubt he will try to hide his behaviour by banning me again as soon as he reads this.

It is of course entirely Mr Franklinís choice as to whether he bans me or not just as it is my choice to believe it is his weak and spineless leadership over the last few years which has tolerated the real serial abusers on this board resulting in so many posters giving it a wide berth and it being held in such contempt by most other rugby boards on Sportnetwork. What I do object to is the lies he tells to justify his actions and the cowardly way he bans people so they canít answer back.

I will leave you with one last thought. Mr Franklin referred to knowing things that I donít. Could it just be that our new Club management have had a word with The Prof and he is now going to start to censor posters that say things that donít meet corporate approval? Sounds very much to me that The Prof has turned into The Poodle.

Pity he didnít turn into someone with some integrity.

(Quick, you better delete this quick Poodle in case people find out what you are really like. Oh wait a moment, it seems itís too late. Other than the usual sycophants here it seems everyone else already does).

Still Watching Ö the hypocritical, lying poodle.

 
Re: Play-off system
kevin (IP Logged)
06 April, 2012 16:37
I reckon we could take on any team and beat them on current form. Playoffs though have an unpleasant way of penalising the smallest of errors. Leicester are more capable than the others at capitalising on errors i believe.

 
Re: Play-off system
Tiggrrr (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 07:27
If we have to have the playoffs I believe that there should be two trophies. Many people like me would then tolerate them rather than hate them.
My main problem with the playoffs is that it is potentially another two games the players are having to play, there is a good chance that many of the players in the top four will then go on some sort of summer tour, all of which can't be good for their welfare. I think that there are a few players who would really benefit from a good rest both physically and mentally, and that their game next season would benefit from it.

 
Re: Play-off system
saracen1971 (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 07:44
Quote:
DOK
I've been trying to find the definitive yes or no to that, but I believe I read it somewhere.
The clubs evenly share the money they get from the RFU for England players. So last season Saracens provided no England players but still got 1/12 of the money paid out by the RFU.

Just out of interest DOK were Saracens the only prem team not to provide an England (senior) player?

Are clubs not to be rewarded for Saxons or age group players?

Only asking as I'm not sure

Unlucky last night by the way.

 
Re: Play-off system
Stopsy (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 08:13
At the inception of the Play Offs there was a separate trophy for finishing top of the leaggue. This was rapidly dropped as there was more than a suspicion that certain clubs and their supporters would value this higher than the Play Offs.

For me they decrease the value of the league and therefore the intensity of the games, particularly in the first half of the season. The league simply becomes a qualifying mechanism for a 2 game sprint in May.

Imagine the scenario, Quins lead the table for most of the season, top the table by say 10 points and qualify for the final. 2 days before the final the team is debilitated by a dose of the trots.

Best team wins? on the day yes, over the season, no.

 
Re: Play-off system
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 08:44
Was'nt it Gloucester that finished first a few times but then lost in the play offs?? We could well be another Gloucester, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives in that play offs keep interest going through all 22 games. Surely the best teams win the big games when the pressure is really on?? I dont agree with how the Play Off systen is used in the Champoinship though.

 
Re: Play-off system
Meaty Quin (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 09:17
We enter the competition knowing the rules at outset.

However, it seems to me that a league is supposed to reward the most consistent team over a season.

Cups are mainly knock out competitions, often with mini-leagues so as to guarantee the entrants a few games. I am not against the play offs but have always believed there should be a prize for winning the league.

Odd that the relegation play offs give some credit forleague poition/points.

 
Re: Play-off system
Yorkie (IP Logged)
07 April, 2012 15:02
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
But the clubs providing players to the EPS also get a payment per player on top.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe that the EPS money is split evenly between all 12 clubs each year. Those teams providing England squad players during a RWC year get an extra allowance, on a per player basis, on the salary noose amount. They receive no extra cash but are allowed to spend more if they have it.




The first year the payoffs were introduced (2000/01) co-incided with Zurich becoming the Prem's sponsors and they were brought in mid way through the season as an end of season knockout competition between the top 8 teams. It was suggested that the winner of this end of season knock-out cup were crowned League champions but sanity eventually took over and the top of the league team were to be crowned champions and received a pot, with a seperate "play off champion" shield being awarded. Tigers won both pots that year. The following 2001/02 season, Tigers finished top of the league again and were crowned Champions. But then in the "Zurich Shield" quarter final at home to Bristol (who'd finished 8th in the league) we put out a reserve team, who duly lost, as we saved the first team for our upcoming HC final. Bristol went on to lose to Glaws(?) in the final.

So, in 2002/03, as teams weren't taking their end of season get together seriously, Zurich insisted that the "Champion" tag be transferred to the payoffs rather than topping the league. In the payoff final, table toppers Glaws lost to 2nd place finishing Wasps who'd beaten Saints in a single semi-final.

In 2003/04, Wasps again finished 2nd in the table after the season proper and won the "Champions" tag by defeating the table toppers (Bath) in the final after a single semi final v Saints. IIRC, that season there was also a "Wildcard" competition for midtable teams for which the reward was a HC place.

In 2004/05, Wasps won their 3rd title, again by finishing 2nd in the Prem table and beating the table toppers (Tigers) after a single semi final v Sale.

In 2005/06 there were 2 semi finals and Sale became the first team to top the table and win the payoff final.

In 2006/07 Tigers finished 2nd in the table on equal points with table toppers Glaws after having a point deducted for an admin error after we didn't re-register one of our own players who'd been on loan elsewhere! Tigers won the final well at the cabbage patch.

In 2007/08, table topping Glaws didn't feature in the Prem final after losing their home semi to 4th place Tigers, the first and only time the team topping the table hadn't appeared in the final. 2nd placed Wasps went on to win the final and be crowned champions again.

In 2008/09 and 2009/10, Tigers topped the table and took the champions crown, beating Irish and then Sarries who'd both finished 3rd in the table.

Last season, as everyone knows, 2nd finishing Sarries beat tabletopping Tigers in the Prem final.

Hence the reason why it's been debated just once or twice on the Tigers' board about the real champions being the team who top the table. But, you can only play the competition rules as they are at the start of the season (apart from the year they tried to change them mid-season!!!), bonus points, salary noose, payoff games, et al!!

Hope this helps explain to those on here not old enough to remember! (Sm14)



http://www.jakehowlett.com/tuckshop/wrappers/chocolate/plain/yorkie-nutter.jpg




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2012 15:08 by Yorkie.

 
Re: Play-off system
Tomdog (IP Logged)
09 April, 2012 11:53
Quote:
Nigel_B
Having said that every club brought into the process

Tigers didn't. We were the only club to vote against the play-off system, but had to go along with the majority.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2012 11:54 by Tomdog.

 
Re: Play-off system
Heath Quinn (IP Logged)
09 April, 2012 18:48
Damn that democracy!

 
Re: Play-off system
10 (IP Logged)
10 April, 2012 18:57
I think the current system is perfect and supports the national team.

you wouldn't want a football scenario where players preferred to play for club rather than country and club managers didn't want to release players.


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