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England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:33
England’s 31-man squad for Argentina tour

Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:38
Find that quite an exciting squad. The guy from L Irish is a beast on the wing. Seen him.this season and he looks good.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
T-Bone (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:43
Odd that Yarde is not involved after being in 6 nations squads. Can't believe Wade isn't either.

No space for Wallace either, and Kieran Brookes has fallen from grace.

Not heard of a few of them. Could anyone shed any light on what positions the following play:

Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:47
Now, who was it that was telling me on another thread that Roberts is so much better than Marchant, and that part of the argument is that Roberts made his Wales debut at 21.

Marchant will still be 20 when the games happen in June.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2017 08:47 by blucherquin.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:48
Curry brothers are back rowers, cokanasiga is a winger, isiekwe is a lock, they are all eng u20s (which is a blow for the u 20 world cup). Francis is a centre/fh who is English but players for the blues in Auckland. Good player.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:48
Personally I really don't see the point in Brown, Care, Robshaw, Haskell, Hartley etc touring.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:49
Ready for lions call ups when injuries strike

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:51
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Ready for lions call ups when injuries strike

I guess, but better off doing a Ryan Grant and going on holiday to NZ for those weeks!

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
T-Bone (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:54
Also, someone else just pointed out, no Robson, Roko or Taylor

Also no sign of our new signing, Boyce. Not saying he should be there though.

Care and Maunder the only 9s?

I can understand the senior players touring to mentor the newbies. Also, if they are match fit and in southern hemisphere might help chances of a lions call as injury replacements?

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:23
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Curry brothers are back rowers, cokanasiga is a winger, isiekwe is a lock, they are all eng u20s (which is a blow for the u 20 world cup). Francis is a centre/fh who is English but players for the blues in Auckland. Good player.

A friend who has links to Sale was raving about the Curry brothers recently. Tried to tell me they will be nucleus of the future England back row as they are so much better than anyone else around (potentially). I suggested that Clifford and Chisholm may be in the mix too. Ironically he knew little about Chis. I guess we do get to see our own players in something of a bubble.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:25
Quote:
Adi Nako
Personally I really don't see the point in Brown, Care, Robshaw, Haskell, Hartley etc touring.

It's not an "A" tour. We do not want to lose. Argentina are no joke.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:39
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Adi Nako
Personally I really don't see the point in Brown, Care, Robshaw, Haskell, Hartley etc touring.

It's not an "A" tour. We do not want to lose. Argentina are no joke.

Time will tell. Personally I think it'll be an Argentina 3rds team but we'll see.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:54
Surprised Dave Ewers didn't get the call - he may be coming back from injury, but he's pretty solid and against Argentina, would be a bonus - but EJ knows what he is doing...

Matches are 2 months before the Four Nations - experiment time (for both) + Lions reserves (for England).

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Cookie (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:05
My understanding is that there is a gentleman's agreement between the management teams to ensure that the sides match up correctly. Shouldn't be a landslide for either team.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:06
Good news for all selected.

I think he has had to take some of the star names and leaders to give a strong core to the team whilst blooding the youngsters in what will be hard rugby.

Feel for the likes of Roko, Wade et al however maybe EJ feels he knows what they offer and they are not core to the team like others and have missed out so he can see what else is on offer for next 6N and World cup in 2019 - Better to have more tried and tested than rely on a few.

All IMHO.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Yareet (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:20
Quote:
T-Bone

Not heard of a few of them. Could anyone shed any light on what positions the following play:

Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Sam James is a centre who has also been playing 10

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:30
Just noticed Solomona is included. I'm a bit disappointed with that to be honest.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:42
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Samquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:52
I find it odd that we have 3 vice captains in the backs. I don't see the point.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:02
Quote:
Adi Nako
Just noticed Solomona is included. I'm a bit disappointed with that to be honest.

Think we crossed that line already with Hughes.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:08
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Adi Nako
Just noticed Solomona is included. I'm a bit disappointed with that to be honest.

Think we crossed that line already with Hughes.

Indeed, but it doesn't mean we have to keep picking these "English" men.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
james46 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:56
Quote:
blucherquin
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

Wade is 25 and Yarde is 24, not exactly past it.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Cookie (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:59
Quote:
james46
Quote:
blucherquin
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

Wade is 25 and Yarde is 24, not exactly past it.

Yarde is 25. Today!!

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 12:55
Quote:
james46
Quote:
blucherquin
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

Wade is 25 and Yarde is 24, not exactly past it.


You've mixed up my two points.

1) It's a great chance to look at players who could be coming of age at the next world cup. Wade and Yarde aren't that -- they're already experienced professionals.

2) What's the point in looking at players that you already know you don't want because they've had lots of high level experience but just aren't up to international class. This is exactly what they are.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
T-Bone (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 13:10
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
james46
Quote:
blucherquin
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

Wade is 25 and Yarde is 24, not exactly past it.


You've mixed up my two points.

1) It's a great chance to look at players who could be coming of age at the next world cup. Wade and Yarde aren't that -- they're already experienced professionals.

2) What's the point in looking at players that you already know you don't want because they've had lots of high level experience but just aren't up to international class. This is exactly what they are.

I understand your point and I agree with it, but it seems odd that Yarde has consistently been picked in Jones' squads and all of a sudden isn't. I personally don't think he's up[ to it, just seems an odd time to jettison him.

Still think Wade is hard done by. Fair enough if Jones doesn't like him, but has he been in any training squads?

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 13:13
Quote:
Now, who was it that was telling me on another thread that Roberts is so much better than Marchant, and that part of the argument is that Roberts made his Wales debut at 21.
Marchant will still be 20 when the games happen in June.

No-one, as far as I recall.

I pointed out Roberts made his debut at 21 in response to someone who, incorrectly as it turned out, said Marchant was 21, but I don't think anyone used it as part of an argument regarding their relative merits.



BB

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 13:50
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
Now, who was it that was telling me on another thread that Roberts is so much better than Marchant, and that part of the argument is that Roberts made his Wales debut at 21.
Marchant will still be 20 when the games happen in June.

No-one, as far as I recall.

I pointed out Roberts made his debut at 21 in response to someone who, incorrectly as it turned out, said Marchant was 21, but I don't think anyone used it as part of an argument regarding their relative merits.

Nah someone said Marchant was great going forward but was flawed defensively, then when it was pointed out he was only a kid, they replied that Roberts was 21 when he made his debut - as if to say that he was therefore better....or I misunderstood, anyway - delighted for him.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 13:55
Quote:
T-Bone
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
james46
Quote:
blucherquin
No point taking Wade, Yarde, Roko etc -- they aren't in the current team and they aren't the future.

Wade is 25 and Yarde is 24, not exactly past it.


You've mixed up my two points.

1) It's a great chance to look at players who could be coming of age at the next world cup. Wade and Yarde aren't that -- they're already experienced professionals.

2) What's the point in looking at players that you already know you don't want because they've had lots of high level experience but just aren't up to international class. This is exactly what they are.

I understand your point and I agree with it, but it seems odd that Yarde has consistently been picked in Jones' squads and all of a sudden isn't. I personally don't think he's up[ to it, just seems an odd time to jettison him.

Still think Wade is hard done by. Fair enough if Jones doesn't like him, but has he been in any training squads?

Marland primarily got his chance due to injuries this year -- once Jones had the players he liked fit he kept sending him home. Jones did twice make reference to him taking it easy too much. I think if Yarde had better service he would be amazing for us but he's got so much competition for the England shirt.

On Wade, I think he's not defensively good enough and not big enough for international level. At club level he is legendary, one of the best-ever top division wingers, and there are a group of players like that for whom this is their greatness, but it's not a greatness suitable for international rugby.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
raedarius (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 14:00
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Adi Nako
Just noticed Solomona is included. I'm a bit disappointed with that to be honest.

Think we crossed that line already with Hughes.

And Flutey.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
blucherquin (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 14:49
Here's how Jones talks about the mix of players -- it's specifically about finding the stars of the 2019 team.

The bit I've put in bold is really interesting -- a very pointed statement.

From RFU:

"Eddie Jones says he sees England’s tour to Argentina as a “great opportunity to test the depth of English rugby” after naming 15 uncapped players in the squad.

England play two Tests in Argentina and with 16 players called into the squad for the British & Irish Lions, Jones says he will use the tour to give some younger players valuable experience of playing international rugby.

Among them include two members of last year’s World Rugby U20 Championship squad – Joe Marchant and Harry Mallinder – as well as several members of this year’s U20 Six Nations winning side.

“What I’m looking to do is improve the squad and I feel these young guys can take the squad to a new level,” said head coach Jones.

“We are pleased for the 16 players who have been picked for the Lions tour and obviously disappointed for the guys that have missed out.

“However, you miss out on the Lions tour and you get to go on the England tour so it’s not a bad second prize. We are looking forward to going to Argentina, we know it’s going to be a tough tour, they were semi-finalists at the 2015 world cup and we are playing in remote cities so it’s going to be a great test for us.

“We’ve got a great opportunity to take a combination of experienced players and some bright young talent that I’m extremely excited by.”

The squad will be led by captain Dylan Hartley, who Jones says is “excited” to go on tour having missed out on selection for the Lions.

And Jones says the focus must be on “finding players who are going to be better than the 16 players on the Lions tour”.

He added: “We’re looking to discover the best young talent in England and see how we can bring them through. To win the world cup we need to have the best and that is our ultimate aim.

“We want players who are desperate to play for England, who are obsessed by being great. If players aren’t like that, they won’t play for England.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2017 15:36 by blucherquin.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 15:25
I think the mix of experienced "elder" players and young "up & coming prospects" is a good one. This way the younger heads have the stability of the established players to rely on, while EJ gets to have a good look at potential future starters to see how they deal with what will be a decent challenge. Argentina are a bona fide Tier 1 nation, and should never be taken lightly.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Cookie (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 15:35
Ranked above Wales and Scotland...........

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 15:46
Quote:
Cookie
Ranked above Wales and Scotland...........

I don't know who you are talking about because Argentina are ranked 9th, below both of them...

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 16:04
I was in Wembley when they played NZ and at the Millennium Stadium when they demolished Ireland during the World Cup. Argentina are no longer the novelty team they were a couple of decades ago. They are *good*. If they played in the 6N, they'd be in the top half of the table more times than not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2017 16:04 by Fearless Fred.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
thomh (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 16:18
Seems like Jones has gone with the real experienced core of Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell etc, but skipped a number of players on the fringes of the main squad, like Yarde, Roko, Goode, Beaumont, Robson etc. It could be a smart move - a chance to look at an entirely fresh bunch of players but also potentially a reality check for the ones who would have expected to go but missed out.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 17:00
Quote:
Fearless Fred
I was in Wembley when they played NZ and at the Millennium Stadium when they demolished Ireland during the World Cup. Argentina are no longer the novelty team they were a couple of decades ago. They are *good*. If they played in the 6N, they'd be in the top half of the table more times than not.

That was a life time ago. Remember how England got knocked out of the group stages of their own world cup but are now comfortably the second best team in the world?

Argentina took a massive (temporary) step back in choosing to no longer select overseas players. That team was whitewashed in the most recent AI's and were nilled by France at home. They are currently ranked 9th in the world, behind all but one of the six nations teams you think they will regularly beat to finish in the top half of the 6N table. On top of that they will likely rest their players for the upcoming RC like they did last lions tour and don't have a fraction of the depth England do. They really aren't that good at the moment, but I still very much hope that they are competitive over the summer.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Cookie (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 17:07
First chart that came up on Google said otherwise. Obviously wrong!

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 18:37
Quote:
Nah someone said Marchant was great going forward but was flawed defensively, then when it was pointed out he was only a kid, they replied that Roberts was 21 when he made his debut - as if to say that he was therefore better....or I misunderstood, anyway - delighted for him

Me too. It was definitely me who pointed out that Roberts was 21 on debut but it wasn't me arguing about him and Marchant.



BB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/04/2017 12:40 by Brown Bottle.

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 11:42
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
Now, who was it that was telling me on another thread that Roberts is so much better than Marchant, and that part of the argument is that Roberts made his Wales debut at 21.
Marchant will still be 20 when the games happen in June.

No-one, as far as I recall.

I pointed out Roberts made his debut at 21 in response to someone who, incorrectly as it turned out, said Marchant was 21, but I don't think anyone used it as part of an argument regarding their relative merits.

Nah someone said Marchant was great going forward but was flawed defensively, then when it was pointed out he was only a kid, they replied that Roberts was 21 when he made his debut - as if to say that he was therefore better....or I misunderstood, anyway - delighted for him.

[www.rugbynetwork.net]

Here she is!

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 16:14
Roberts was still in the back 3 at that point wasn't he?



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 16:21
Quote:
Eddie Jones
"Collier is a really steady tight-head. Scrummaging wise he probably has the best body position of anyone in the Premiership, so it is a great opportunity for him."

 
Re: England call up for Marchant and Collier
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 20:34
Quote:
Jammy Git
Roberts was still in the back 3 at that point wasn't he?

Skinny winger I think.



BB


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