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I know I'm going to get flamed....,
28 April, 2017 21:36
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 21:40
Agreed!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 21:42
Yes.

Yes you will get flamed.

And yes, you're bang on.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Hellequin (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 22:02
Yep as I suggested in another thread when we play at our best Quins are a top 2 team we can do a solid defence job when needed and can make quick breaks in attack. Shown tonight and against Sarries at home.

The problems this season have been when we come up against a solid defence and try too hard and end up going backwards, we start to kick the ball aimlessly then concede tries which means chasing the game and losing defensive shape and leads to more scores conceded. We have also lost lots of line outs in attacking areas which has cost us.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 22:19
One of the best performances I've ever seen - we destroyed them. Have no clue who the team are I watched tonight - absent all year.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 22:57
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)

So Wasps was emotion of Nev leaving
Exeter the prospect of Lions selection
Newcastle ????
Gloucester ????

Credit where it is due, I still think we were unlucky against Exeter and think Wasps have been asking for what we gave them for a number of weeks and we delivered despite a ton of errors.
Proof will be if we can back it up next week for me.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 23:28
Quote:
TitusQuin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)

So Wasps was emotion of Nev leaving
Exeter the prospect of Lions selection
Newcastle ????
Gloucester ????

Credit where it is due, I still think we were unlucky against Exeter and think Wasps have been asking for what we gave them for a number of weeks and we delivered despite a ton of errors.
Proof will be if we can back it up next week for me.

Don't forget the Sarries match either.

Frustrating season.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Rocker (IP Logged)
28 April, 2017 23:47
Quote:
blucherquin
One of the best performances I've ever seen - we destroyed them. Have no clue who the team are I watched tonight - absent all year.

This hits it on the head for me. If we can do that to Wasps, how the he'll do we loose to Wuss? As you say JG a VERY frustrating season. Moments of brilliance, interspersed with utter rubbish.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 08:28
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.

Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 08:33
Quote:
DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.

Maybe the players have been told that a change to the coaching set up will take place?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 08:41
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room! smiling smiley

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 08:49
Quote:
DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room! smiling smiley
Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:10
Constant support is boring? Then what is your constant non-support? Especially in the face of one of the best wins of the season!

As for "grow up!" - did you miss the smiley face or something? A gentle dig was all it was supposed to be, the kind of thing to bring a wry smile to your face! It didn't work? I withdraw the remark!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:27
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
TitusQuin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)

So Wasps was emotion of Nev leaving
Exeter the prospect of Lions selection
Newcastle ????
Gloucester ????

Credit where it is due, I still think we were unlucky against Exeter and think Wasps have been asking for what we gave them for a number of weeks and we delivered despite a ton of errors.
Proof will be if we can back it up next week for me.

Don't forget the Sarries match either.


Frustrating season.

i was making reference to recent months where there seems to have been more consistency in effort compared to the first half when we certainly never knew which would turn up.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:31
Quote:
The150
Quote:
DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room! smiling smiley
Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.

Can't quite believe that response.



BB

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:33
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
The150
Quote:
DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room! smiling smiley
Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.

Can't quite believe that response.

Ditto.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:34
Snap

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
raedarius (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 09:46
Despite the strong performance there were still periods when we were pushing everyone forward in attack and were painfully vulnerable to turnover and kick chase. Unlike the Exeter match it didn't happen this time but the inherent vulnerability is still there.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
SiBolton (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 10:08
Quote:
DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.

Spot on DOK, here's hoping we can also build on this performance at the Gardens, and if we do it will show that things are starting to click into place.
It's taken longer than anyone wanted, but last night was a godd performance, here's to plenty more and hopefully champions cup, because if we keep improving then next season really could be interesting

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 10:51
Quote:
SiBolton
Quote:
DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.

Spot on DOK, here's hoping we can also build on this performance at the Gardens, and if we do it will show that things are starting to click into place.
It's taken longer than anyone wanted, but last night was a godd performance, here's to plenty more and hopefully champions cup, because if we keep improving then next season really could be interesting

For me this is key. Next season JK will have more of "his" squad, we'll have some interesting joiners, and a full pre-season under the current setup. I am firmly in the JK camp as I think he has potential to take the club back to the glories of not so long ago. We may not peak next season, but I'm hoping for (and expecting) a noticeable improvement - not so much in quality, as we know that is there, but in consistency, attitude and teamwork.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Mayor West (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 11:30
I'm with you DOK, if JK is that bad why are we steadily improving. We've barely had the same team out twice this year and I think the players are gelling now. I loved Mike Browns reaction after that turnover he made near the end with blood dripping from his ear.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 11:54
Why would you get flamed for using a good performance as evidence that the coaches are rubbish?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
ChipsteadQuin (IP Logged)
29 April, 2017 12:19
That was an excellent team performance against one of best performers in the AP this season and one of my best nights at the Stoop for several seasons.

I understand that some want the coaches changed and anyone is entitled to voice that opinion

BUT .. why not just enjoy the moment ? , most on here care about Quins and they've given us plenty of opportunity to grumble this season , but last night wasn't one of them.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RleQuin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 00:33
Let's face it, we've been like this for years with the odd highlight thrown in.
On our day, we can beat anyone.
The real test comes next week when we will know what we have to do to finish sixth.
For me, this has been our worst season since 2012/13 - so much promise and yet all we got was excuse after excuse.
RleQ

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 05:54
Quote:
The150
Quote:
DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room! smiling smiley
Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.

"Wow just wow" - everyone's favourite self-righteous response to any mild and innocuous opinion on the Internet.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
The Dead Baron (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 07:57
Interesting points being made. I have been very frustrated this season with our performance. Periods of brilliance and real entertainment peppered with some truely truely dire performances. Personally, I'm not a fan of JK as DoR - Head Coach, yes, but not DoR. But it is what it is. I'm willing to see how next season pans out, with a full season (including summer training) and "his" player to get the results. BUT if next season reflects this, then it will be clear that a bad workman is simply blaming his tools.

(Not that I'm calling the players tools. Although a few individual performances spring to mind...!)

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 08:44
That's a fair view, Dead Baron. I don't know of anyone who claimed JK was a brilliant choice as DoR, but many have denounced him from the off. Criticising someone before they start a job is a little unfair. Some posters demand his sacking on an almost weekly basis, then disappear after the occasional excellent performance. I even recall one poster during the glos game who ranted at JK because we were in a losing position; but when we turned the game around and won, he claimed the performance was nothing to do with JK! So it seems all losses are down to JK, but none of the wins.

I honestly believe that if JK led us on a 19 match winning streak, if we lost the 20th then certain posters would want him out.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 09:00
As we're going for 'getting shot down in flames' statements - how about this

The biggest difference between the wasps game and the Exeter game, was that Wasps were truly, truly awful and Exeter were not. I find this to be the case in most of the games we have won this season, That's not to say that we have played poorly all the time - just that the way the opposition plays, does have an impact on the result and how Quins play.

From my perspective the players have been trying to play every game - my concern is that we play the same way every game, regardless of the opposition or the selection.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 09:12
Well BT said it was our performance of the season.

But they made the point that the team will be asking themselves why they can't do it "week in week out"

They said "they've got the players, they just need to find the self-belief"

Which sums it up pretty well for me.

Who's fault is it? Impossible to know but it's either the coaches, the players or both.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 09:43
Strange thread. If we lose, it shows the coaches and DoR need to change. So we win, and that shows that the coaches and DoR need to change?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 10:07
Quote:
blucherquin
...or both.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 13:58
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Strange thread. If we lose, it shows the coaches and DoR need to change. So we win, and that shows that the coaches and DoR need to change?

That's actually completely missing the point that was being made though. Fair enough you might not agree with it but you can't just ignore it.

My personal view is that the odd spectacular performances we've seen are indicative of the talent available in the squad and it's then a fair question to ask why we don't see more of those sorts of performances?

I still don't see any real cohesion or plan in how we attack or defend and that's probably why we don't see consistent performances week in week out because we're relying on individual talent rather than a team effort. Any improvement we've seen is more down to players coming back than a development in the way we play (imo).

Why that's the case is then up for debate. Are things not being coached or are the players not listening? We won't ever know that but I think either way we'd be better off with someone else in charge.

Just my opinion of course.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 19:08
With one game to go so far we have conceded 10 tries fewer than last season which, given how embarrassing some of the performance have been this season (mainly when the best players have been away), is somewhat noteworthy.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 22:22
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Just my opinion of course.

You're Terry Wogan and I claim my Five Groats...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
30 April, 2017 22:47
Quote:
Quinky Kin
That's a fair view, Dead Baron. I don't know of anyone who claimed JK was a brilliant choice as DoR, but many have denounced him from the off. Criticising someone before they start a job is a little unfair. Some posters demand his sacking on an almost weekly basis, then disappear after the occasional excellent performance. I even recall one poster during the glos game who ranted at JK because we were in a losing position; but when we turned the game around and won, he claimed the performance was nothing to do with JK! So it seems all losses are down to JK, but none of the wins.
I honestly believe that if JK led us on a 19 match winning streak, if we lost the 20th then certain posters would want him out.

Honestly?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 06:50
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).

But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.

As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.

And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.

Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Yareet (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 07:32
Quote:
Cookie
Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.

So which team is overperforming? Who is above Quins who shouldn't be?

Wasps?
Chiefs?
Sarries?
Tigers?
Bath?

Think most would agree that all of those clubs would feel they have squads which are good enough for top 6.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2017 07:34 by Yareet.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 07:33
Quote:
Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.

As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.

And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.

Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.

Im not sure about JK at all yet.

But that particular argument doesn't work does it?

Our squad has been "better than that" for five years and we've been out for the top 4 for the last 3, of which he's been coaching just this one.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 07:43
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.

As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.

And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.

Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.

Im not sure about JK at all yet.

But that particular argument doesn't work does it?

Our squad has been "better than that" for five years and we've been out for the top 4 for the last 3, of which he's been coaching just this one.

That's precisely my point. The team has shown it can play well, but it would appear JK and MT (we must stop making it all about JK) can't unlock that potential regularly enough. It's not all about DOR for me as I've said many times. Coaching as a whole is the problem, which is why last summer was the chance for a clear out and fresh staff and ideas.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 08:33
Quote:
Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.

To be fair to Newcastle and Worcester, they have taken some good sides down at home - Sarries, Bath, Northampton. Before we lost to Falcons they had just beaten Saints at the Gardens and were in the middle of a purple patch.

I don't think it is fair to blame all on coaching when players availability and attitude have been problematic too. I agree we have a good squad, but getting them to play with the same intensity and accuracy every week is not only the job of the coaches, but the players too.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 09:33
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.

To be fair to Newcastle and Worcester, they have taken some good sides down at home - Sarries, Bath, Northampton. Before we lost to Falcons they had just beaten Saints at the Gardens and were in the middle of a purple patch.

I don't think it is fair to blame all on coaching when players availability and attitude have been problematic too. I agree we have a good squad, but getting them to play with the same intensity and accuracy every week is not only the job of the coaches, but the players too.

As I've said many times, it's not the results. It's the performances. Performances have been on the wane for too long and taken the results with them.

The players absolutely have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad, so usually it's a change in coaching that is the best attempt at a solution. Our coaching has been stale since we won the AP.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
01 May, 2017 09:41
Actually turned into quite an intelligent thread, thanks to all. Let's beat Northampton to look forward to top level European rugby next season, and in the meantime enjoy a nice long warm Summer with friends & family.....with the Lions thrown in for good measure!! winking smiley

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 09:46
Quote:
Cookie
As I've said many times, it's not the results. It's the performances. Performances have been on the wane for too long and taken the results with them.

The players absolutely have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad, so usually it's a change in coaching that is the best attempt at a solution. Our coaching has been stale since we won the AP.

Agreed re performances, but I'm not sure that changing coaches is always the best solution. If there's a problem in the squad, it will continue. You know the saying about one bad apple... JK has talked about inheriting a squad and we've seen how he is removing some players and replacing them with his own picks. If - and it's a big IF - there has been an issue or complacency in the squad, that will have taken time to iron out or remove. I'd like to see the players put in another performance next weekend, and I'd also like to see a few more announcements re squad changes for next season. It will definitely be an interesting one.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 10:46
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.

To be fair to Newcastle and Worcester, they have taken some good sides down at home - Sarries, Bath, Northampton. Before we lost to Falcons they had just beaten Saints at the Gardens and were in the middle of a purple patch.

I don't think it is fair to blame all on coaching when players availability and attitude have been problematic too. I agree we have a good squad, but getting them to play with the same intensity and accuracy every week is not only the job of the coaches, but the players too.

As I've said many times, it's not the results. It's the performances. Performances have been on the wane for too long and taken the results with them.

The players absolutely have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad, so usually it's a change in coaching that is the best attempt at a solution. Our coaching has been stale since we won the AP.

Performance will suffer when the match day squad changes so frequently - we've had multiple occupants in the key positions of 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13 with so many possible combinations that partnerships and understanding have suffered. We've had 2 or 3 seasons with bad injury and unavailability, starting with JTH and Lowe and our midfield creativity has suffered.

It has, though, meant that the post AP victory academy lads have had increased game time and they are fulfilling their roles and more: Sinckler, Clifford, Collier, Matthews, Chisholm, Merrick and perhaps Twomey (- injured this season). Shame there aren't many backs coming through...

While I think performance has been slowly improving since February, there is still much to work on, but I suggest that JK be given more time. Others, I know, will disagree.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 11:14
I am going to give the same time as it took between Deano leaving and us winning the Premiership as I believe most credited the team who won the Prem to Deano and ME, so it's only fair to say that the slump could be down to Conor leaving and that we won't see a true JK team for at least one more season!



QUIN KONG

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
D-Quins (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 15:28
JK has gone on record saying that there is balance problem in the squad, that is not saying the players are bad but that there is not the right mix. He has also said that correcting this can't be done in 1 year as corrections can only be done as contracts come to an end. Yes I know a club can say bye at any point but they have to pay to do this and I guess with SC and the clubs finances this option is not open to him.

He also said as I recall that next year a very large number of the squads contracts come to an end, so I assume we should expect a bigger set of changes to be announced next year.

So until he has his squad I think we can expect some disappointments but as a long term Quins fan I have become use to this!

As for JK we know he can spot talent, take Mike Ross the retiring Irish international. He was playing in lower division rugby thinking of giving it up when he was persuaded to join us. He was a great find and once fitter (he was never fit in my opinion) showed his talent. It was a shame he left but to get international rugby he had to. Without JK he would have been lost to international rugby, there are other examples as well so there is no doubt in my mind he can spot talent.

I am more patient than most it would appear, but I am prepared to give the guy the time needed


Regards

D-Quins

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 16:00
Just putting this out there but last season we finished 7th winning 10 games, this season we have won 11 games and have a good chance of finishing 6th.

This is an improvement.

I have higher expectations, but the squad is essentially the same and we have had some rotten luck with injuries.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 16:22
Quote:
He was playing in lower division rugby thinking of giving it up when he was persuaded to join us.

Well... not exactly. He came for a trial and had he not passed it he'd have given it up.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Mayor West (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 18:17
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
01 May, 2017 20:02
Quote:
Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?

At the risk of repeating myself, personally I'm not solely blaming JK. I give equal blame to Mapletoft and Osborne. The rest are too new in their roles (Rowntree, Easter).

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 06:50
Quote:
Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...

Sarracens had a ruthless clear out at the beginning of the SA- Venter era, with dramatic results (on the pitch) - would you advocate that approach?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 08:28
I think I read somewhere that if you sack someone, the money you pay them on termination comes out of the salary cap for next year. If true that doesn't leave much wiggle room.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 08:28
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...

Sarracens had a ruthless clear out at the beginning of the SA- Venter era, with dramatic results (on the pitch) - would you advocate that approach?

I'm not sure Sarries is a blueprint that should be followed, but I'm also not sure a massive clearout is needed. We need more strength in depth for the International periods, which we seem to have done with Catrikilis and Bothma. I'm expecting one significant signing and possibly one other squad player and then I'd say we're set.

I wouldn't be thrilled about 6th, but I'd say it's the least I would have wanted to accept at the start of the season. That said, Saturday might prove interesting if we're able to string two performances together back-to-back.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 10:21
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...

Sarracens had a ruthless clear out at the beginning of the SA- Venter era, with dramatic results (on the pitch) - would you advocate that approach?

Sarries also had some "issues" with regard to their approach to the salary cap. I'm not sure Quins can afford the lawyers to force everyone to accept prove our innocence...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 10:31
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.

As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.

And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.

Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.

Im not sure about JK at all yet.

But that particular argument doesn't work does it?

Our squad has been "better than that" for five years and we've been out for the top 4 for the last 3, of which he's been coaching just this one.

That's precisely my point. The team has shown it can play well, but it would appear JK and MT (we must stop making it all about JK) can't unlock that potential regularly enough. It's not all about DOR for me as I've said many times. Coaching as a whole is the problem, which is why last summer was the chance for a clear out and fresh staff and ideas.

Well yes, but CoS also totally failed to get the same great squad to perform to two years.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 10:50
And it was totally COS's squad by then!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 11:25
I'm not sure invoking COS' failures in his last couple of seasons is a great defence of the current coaching staff, considering many of them were also key members of COS' coaching team.

All a bit of a moot point at this stage anyway as it's clear we're going to stick with JK and co for next season.

So I think those of us who aren't fully excited by that prospect need to start looking for the positives, hopefully starting with our first set of good back to back performances this season.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
poorfour (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 11:26
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
Just putting this out there but last season we finished 7th winning 10 games, this season we have won 11 games and have a good chance of finishing 6th.
This is an improvement.

I have higher expectations, but the squad is essentially the same and we have had some rotten luck with injuries.

I would agree with this. There were some very bad away performances earlier in the season, but our home form has been good, injuries have been horrendous (although they often seem to be) and the performances over the last few weeks have been pretty consistent even though the results haven't gone our way - the Exeter game, for instance, was actually a good performance against a very good team that came unstuck on a few specific errors - 3 errors, 3 first phase tries; it happens against good teams.

There have clearly been a couple of big changes in how the team is trying to play, particularly in defence, and the squad have struggled a bit to trust each other. I think that's shifting a bit now.

And, for all that, the end result this season will be as good as in our previous seasons and potentially a step up into 6th. In a competitive league, where we clearly haven't been spending quite as freely as some, that's OK for a first season.

In Deano's first AP season we were 6th (having had the luxury of a season in ND1 to work with the squad); in COS's we were 7th. Both seasons were marked by inconsistency. Change of management is disruptive - and this one more than most because most of the coaches took on different roles, rather than just having a new DoR parachute in.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
02 May, 2017 19:04
Anyone keeping an eye on the Twitter updates from tonight's Q&A with JK?

He's 100%!not going anywhere regardless of what happens at the weekend.

Saying a lot of the right things to be fair.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 06:55
Quote:
Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?

Blackadder...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 07:39
Again, we're focusing only on JK.

Gloucester changed their Head Coach and won 4 out of the next 6 games including making the Challenge Cup Final by beating the Top 14 leaders away, inflicting their first home defeat of the season.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 08:54
Losscester's run in the cup has been good - no argument - like ours last year: if they go on to win the cup, then hats off to the new coaching side.

But in the 3 matches In the AP since losing at home to Quins that triggered the resignation, they have beaten two sides below them and lost away to Newcastle - one of the reasons you have previously used as a point of dissatisfaction at Quins team - and before you say it, their performance is what counts and reading Shedweb would suggest that didn't deliver at Falcons.

As for Blackadder at Bath, they have not had a glorious season, have they, RR: apart from smashing Losscester last weekend, this year (2017) they have lost to Newcastle (like we did), Bristol, Wasps, Sarracens (by more than us) and Worcester - the other team that is commonly used to set as a standard not to lose to - albeit while also winning close games at "home" to Tigers and Saints.

So I don't think there is much to the supposition that changing coaching can make such a difference. It's taken 2 changes at Tigers this season and they are 4th. It may well take a few more season for the reality to rise to the surface, granted, but this seasons evidence, there is little pudding-proof.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 09:17
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Losscester's run in the cup has been good - no argument - like ours last year: if they go on to win the cup, then hats off to the new coaching side.
But in the 3 matches In the AP since losing at home to Quins that triggered the resignation, they have beaten two sides below them and lost away to Newcastle - one of the reasons you have previously used as a point of dissatisfaction at Quins team - and before you say it, their performance is what counts and reading Shedweb would suggest that didn't deliver at Falcons.

As for Blackadder at Bath, they have not had a glorious season, have they, RR: apart from smashing Losscester last weekend, this year (2017) they have lost to Newcastle (like we did), Bristol, Wasps, Sarracens (by more than us) and Worcester - the other team that is commonly used to set as a standard not to lose to - albeit while also winning close games at "home" to Tigers and Saints.

So I don't think there is much to the supposition that changing coaching can make such a difference. It's taken 2 changes at Tigers this season and they are 4th. It may well take a few more season for the reality to rise to the surface, granted, but this seasons evidence, there is little pudding-proof.

Come come now. Apparently if we lose this week we've had a worse season than last year, if we win then it's better - all about table position. I was asked who had come in and made an immediate improvement - compare Bath's season this year with last.

Do you honestly think that Blackadder hasn't had an immediate impact?

If you want to compaere them with us, they've won an extra game, picked up 5 LBP from 9 losses (contrast our 2 from 10 - 8 losses > 7 pts) and have a better points difference. Bath go into next week with a chane (however remote) of finishing top 4!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 09:19
Bath's squad is significantly stronger than ours, for obvious reasons.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 09:33
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?

Blackadder...

Yep, he's failed to get them into the top 4.

Bath finishes since 2010 -- 5th, 8th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, 9th, 5th...

Not quite sure what to make of anyone's impact given that variable form...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 09:37
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Come come now. Apparently if we lose this week we've had a worse season than last year, if we win then it's better - all about table position.

If we lose on Saturday we could still be 6th, but maybe 7th. Last year we were 7th. Apparently that's not worse.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 10:17
Bath didn't accept finishing 9th and made changes. At a minimum they'll finish 5th.

Leicester, after 13 consecutive playoff finishes, were worried about falling out of the top 4 so did something about it. They will likely make the top 4.

As for Gloucester, whatever the quality of their wins, they won. It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 11:22
I've said this many times on here before but still think it's the case that whilst everyone within the coaching team (as Cookie says it's not just JK) talks a good game, actually seeing something positive being implemented is completely different and I just haven't really seen what the current coaching setup has brought to the table compared to what we had previously.

Our defence has improved from the start of the season, but I think that's because we saw a severe drop off in our defence in the first few games and we're now getting back to where we were last season rather than being significantly better.

In attack we still make the same daft mistakes with our kick-chase and we still butcher important set-pieces in attack. Whilst we have perhaps seen a move to a more direct game than the endless side to side we saw in the death throes of COS' reign, I certainly wouldn't say I've seen enough to suggest we are significantly progressing.

And this is what leads to the inconsistency we've seen all season. We rely on individual skill rather than a system or any collective knowledge of what we're aiming to do, so if players are out or off-form, then it all falls apart.

Maybe JK is right and we tried to do too much too soon at the start of the season, and we've also had lots of injuries/call ups etc (although the club can't say it hasn't had a chance to mitigate that), and the signs for 60 minutes against Exeter and then 80 against Wasps were promising.

But if we don't get a result at Northampton, regardless of whether we sneak through with a LBP, it will show we've not found any level of consistency even after a full season and that is a bit worrying. It then becomes a question of how long do you give the current setup before starting again properly?

For me, because so many of the current setup were there under the previously deteriorating regime, they wouldn't get as much time as a whole new team coming in would. But if the decision has been made to give JK at least another year then that's fair enough (I don't necessarily agree but fair enough) but I think we'll know by December whether it was the correct decision or not.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
DOK (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 11:56
I give it half next season. Not to get it right, but to show me they can get it right and to give me confidence that they will get it right. If I'm not convinced by then, then maybe a big change at that point will rescue the season. So I'm not looking to see us lead the table (though it would be nice) but for all the talk of new blood, is it settling in and is it clearly making a difference? Having had all summer to iron out the changes JK wanted to implement, are we obviously playing better?

It's not just about results. Try and view objectively how we played against Exeter, and we certainly should have beaten them. Two uncharacteristic misses by Mike Brown cost us two tries, a lucky sideways bounce a third. But we played well, and the guts and determination we showed to get that last try, even though it had no effect on the outcome, showed me the determination this team has to do better. The result was bad, but we played well. I can live with that. It's the poor performance where we seem all at sea that I don't want to see ever again.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 11:57
Quote:
Cookie
Bath didn't accept finishing 9th and made changes. At a minimum they'll finish 5th.
They finished 9th after having signed up Blackadder - yes, I know he had no impact; but as Blucher says, their form had been topsy-turvy anyway and the previous year had finished 2nd - finishing 9th coincided with the awful decision to try and shoe-in Burgess and the collateral damage it caused.

Quote:
Cookie
Leicester, after 13 consecutive playoff finishes, were worried about falling out of the top 4 so did something about it. They will likely make the top 4.
Indeed - used to success - got rid of Cockerill and some time after, Mauger. So the initial sacking didn't seem to have much effect. Should JK/MM/CO been given the heave-ho, who knows what might happen next - this illustrates that simply removing someone doesn't always herald success.

Quote:
Cookie
As for Gloucester, whatever the quality of their wins, they won. It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going.
But you use the same set of criteria to beat our coaches/team/performances and its not OK - its inconsistent. You have said many times, recently, that its not results, its performance.

Your assertion has been for some time that improvements would come with a change in coaching staff (as wholesale club clearcut wasn't best way): I am trying to suggest that simply changing coaching staff mid season is not a guaranteed way to improve results, as the examples you present show.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 12:00
Quote:
DOK
I give it half next season. Not to get it right, but to show me they can get it right and to give me confidence that they will get it right. If I'm not convinced by then, then maybe a big change at that point will rescue the season. So I'm not looking to see us lead the table (though it would be nice) but for all the talk of new blood, is it settling in and is it clearly making a difference? Having had all summer to iron out the changes JK wanted to implement, are we obviously playing better?
It's not just about results. Try and view objectively how we played against Exeter, and we certainly should have beaten them. Two uncharacteristic misses by Mike Brown cost us two tries, a lucky sideways bounce a third. But we played well, and the guts and determination we showed to get that last try, even though it had no effect on the outcome, showed me the determination this team has to do better. The result was bad, but we played well. I can live with that. It's the poor performance where we seem all at sea that I don't want to see ever again.

Agreed, DOK. It's not just about results. If we play well on Saturday, that would be 4 of the last 5 and 5 of the last 7 in terms of performances that could be considered decent, if not great. Something to believe in for next season (with a couple more signings).

As discussed elsewhere, I'm now less convinced that Catrikilis and Bothma are going to give us the lift we maybe thought they would, so would like to see more work done.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 12:08
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a in inDOR lately?

Blackadder...

Yep, he's failed to get them into the top 4.

Bath finishes since 2010 -- 5th, 8th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, 9th, 5th...

Not quite sure what to make of anyone's impact given that variable form...

Well, they were 9th last year and are 5th this.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 13:03
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
Bath didn't accept finishing 9th and made changes. At a minimum they'll finish 5th.
They finished 9th after having signed up Blackadder - yes, I know he had no impact; but as Blucher says, their form had been topsy-turvy anyway and the previous year had finished 2nd - finishing 9th coincided with the awful decision to try and shoe-in Burgess and the collateral damage it caused.

Quote:
Cookie
Leicester, after 13 consecutive playoff finishes, were worried about falling out of the top 4 so did something about it. They will likely make the top 4.
Indeed - used to success - got rid of Cockerill and some time after, Mauger. So the initial sacking didn't seem to have much effect. Should JK/MM/CO been given the heave-ho, who knows what might happen next - this illustrates that simply removing someone doesn't always herald success.

Quote:
Cookie
As for Gloucester, whatever the quality of their wins, they won. It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going.
But you use the same set of criteria to beat our coaches/team/performances and its not OK - its inconsistent. You have said many times, recently, that its not results, its performance.

Your assertion has been for some time that improvements would come with a change in coaching staff (as wholesale club clearcut wasn't best way): I am trying to suggest that simply changing coaching staff mid season is not a guaranteed way to improve results, as the examples you present show.

Bath finished 9th last season, before Blackadder joined. This year 4th or 5th.

Absolutely not saying Leicester did things right, but they did what it took to make sure they maintained their position. Mauger was treated poorly, but it would appear they never saw him as a long-term solution.

I didn't mean the quality of Gloucesters rugby. I meant the quality of their opponents. That should have been clear as you were suggesting they only beat poor teams.

Obviously changes don't guarantee anything. But the recent examples in the AP would suggest they did bring improvement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2017 13:04 by Cookie.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 14:51
Quote:
Cookie
Bath finished 9th last season, before Blackadder joined. This year 4th or 5th.

I did note that point, but I still don't think you are taking into account the nature (i.e. performances and/or results) of their 9th place finish - a season that they tried to force Burgess into the team (as Bruce Craig wanted) and the effect that this had on the coaching and playing staff: if Ellis bought in someone and forced him into the squad, there'd be uproar on here - "he's a housing officer - what's he know"! This after a season when they finished second under Ford.

Quote:
Cookie
I didn't mean the quality of Gloucesters rugby. I meant the quality of their opponents. That should have been clear as you were suggesting they only beat poor teams.

Yes they beat poor teams, as Quins did, but they also lost against Falcons, the team you used as a measuring stick when we lost to them, saying that we should beat these teams and that there was a lack of performance. The results Glaws subsequently got would have been expected, so suggesting it was the change in coaching that prompted the wins doesn't necessarily hold. There is still a very good chance that Glass will finish 9th this season - will the change have done any good? Should Fisher have left when he did (and important to note that he left - not forced out).

Prior to the home game against Quins, and contrary to your assertion "It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going." - implying that previous results had been bad, forcing Fisher's hand, Glaws had beaten Sarries (H), Worcester (H, a team we struggled with, you mention) losing against Wasps (A), Tigers (A) and, narrowly, Saints (H) - hardly underachieving considering their comparative league positions, even if the victory against Sarries was during 6N.

Quote:
Cookie
Obviously changes don't guarantee anything. But the recent examples in the AP would suggest they did bring improvement.

I really don't think that they do apart from perhaps Tigers - and they had to do it twice.

If a club has to change the set up to that extent, it should be an end of season thing, not halfway through. Looking at footy, it seems to me (and I am not an avid watcher), that the successful clubs change manager less frequently than the less successful clubs, who are prone to frequent and unsuccessful managerial changes. I am sure it is no accident that the AP top 3 have DORs that have been around for 6 years or more, with the majority of their coaching team intact (and I won't argue that they have chosen them well - its when to change them, and here, I imagine that advice to Ellis and Co, comes from Sean Fitzpatrick, but I don't know). Remember the furore of COS announcing in January or thereabouts that he was leaving and the subsequent results?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 17:09
Right. So Blackadder hasn't improved Bath, it's just that he didn't have to deal with Burgess. http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg

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