Quote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)
Quote:TitusQuinQuote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)
So Wasps was emotion of Nev leaving
Exeter the prospect of Lions selection
Newcastle ????
Gloucester ????
Credit where it is due, I still think we were unlucky against Exeter and think Wasps have been asking for what we gave them for a number of weeks and we delivered despite a ton of errors.
Proof will be if we can back it up next week for me.
Quote:blucherquin
One of the best performances I've ever seen - we destroyed them. Have no clue who the team are I watched tonight - absent all year.
Quote:DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.
Quote:Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room!
Quote:Jammy GitQuote:TitusQuinQuote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
After that performance I'm ever more adamant Jk should go!!! IT IS POSSIBLE to play like that so WHY THE HELL are we so dreadful so often!!!? Was it just the emotion around NEvs last home game? Great game but even more frustrated!!!!!! (That said, would the real Wasps please stand up!?)
So Wasps was emotion of Nev leaving
Exeter the prospect of Lions selection
Newcastle ????
Gloucester ????
Credit where it is due, I still think we were unlucky against Exeter and think Wasps have been asking for what we gave them for a number of weeks and we delivered despite a ton of errors.
Proof will be if we can back it up next week for me.
Don't forget the Sarries match either.
Frustrating season.
Quote:The150Quote:Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room!
Quote:Brown BottleQuote:The150Quote:Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room!
Can't quite believe that response.
Quote:DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.
Quote:SiBoltonQuote:DOK
Or you could say the team have been improving. The loss to Exeter was down to a few individual errors,people switching off at the wrong time and a couple of lucky breaks for Exeter. We had the beating of them, just didn't pull it off. Here we played for a full 80 minutes, and it worked. We've known all season we play better at home than away, so it was a nice surprise when we actually did what I was hoping we could do.
Thought, for example, Roberts has continued to improve. Made a number of telling contributions whereas earlier in the season he was anonymous.
Spot on DOK, here's hoping we can also build on this performance at the Gardens, and if we do it will show that things are starting to click into place.
It's taken longer than anyone wanted, but last night was a godd performance, here's to plenty more and hopefully champions cup, because if we keep improving then next season really could be interesting
Quote:The150Quote:Wow - just wow! Grow up DOK please - your constant support of JK is boring now.DOK
Yeah! Do tell us how JK has lost the dressing room!
Quote:blucherquin
...or both.
Quote:Quinky Kin
Strange thread. If we lose, it shows the coaches and DoR need to change. So we win, and that shows that the coaches and DoR need to change?
Quote:talkshowhost86
Just my opinion of course.
Quote:Quinky Kin
That's a fair view, Dead Baron. I don't know of anyone who claimed JK was a brilliant choice as DoR, but many have denounced him from the off. Criticising someone before they start a job is a little unfair. Some posters demand his sacking on an almost weekly basis, then disappear after the occasional excellent performance. I even recall one poster during the glos game who ranted at JK because we were in a losing position; but when we turned the game around and won, he claimed the performance was nothing to do with JK! So it seems all losses are down to JK, but none of the wins.
I honestly believe that if JK led us on a 19 match winning streak, if we lost the 20th then certain posters would want him out.
Quote:Cookie
Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.
Quote:Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.
As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.
And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.
Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.
Quote:blucherquinQuote:Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.
As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.
And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.
Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.
Im not sure about JK at all yet.
But that particular argument doesn't work does it?
Our squad has been "better than that" for five years and we've been out for the top 4 for the last 3, of which he's been coaching just this one.
Quote:Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.
Quote:Bolly-QuinQuote:Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.
To be fair to Newcastle and Worcester, they have taken some good sides down at home - Sarries, Bath, Northampton. Before we lost to Falcons they had just beaten Saints at the Gardens and were in the middle of a purple patch.
I don't think it is fair to blame all on coaching when players availability and attitude have been problematic too. I agree we have a good squad, but getting them to play with the same intensity and accuracy every week is not only the job of the coaches, but the players too.
Quote:Cookie
As I've said many times, it's not the results. It's the performances. Performances have been on the wane for too long and taken the results with them.
The players absolutely have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad, so usually it's a change in coaching that is the best attempt at a solution. Our coaching has been stale since we won the AP.
Quote:CookieQuote:Bolly-QuinQuote:Cookie
By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right.
To be fair to Newcastle and Worcester, they have taken some good sides down at home - Sarries, Bath, Northampton. Before we lost to Falcons they had just beaten Saints at the Gardens and were in the middle of a purple patch.
I don't think it is fair to blame all on coaching when players availability and attitude have been problematic too. I agree we have a good squad, but getting them to play with the same intensity and accuracy every week is not only the job of the coaches, but the players too.
As I've said many times, it's not the results. It's the performances. Performances have been on the wane for too long and taken the results with them.
The players absolutely have to take some responsibility, but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad, so usually it's a change in coaching that is the best attempt at a solution. Our coaching has been stale since we won the AP.
Quote:He was playing in lower division rugby thinking of giving it up when he was persuaded to join us.
Quote:Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?
Quote:Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...
Quote:Bolly-QuinQuote:Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...
Sarracens had a ruthless clear out at the beginning of the SA- Venter era, with dramatic results (on the pitch) - would you advocate that approach?
Quote:Bolly-QuinQuote:Cookie
...but unfortunately you can't sack and entire squad...
Sarracens had a ruthless clear out at the beginning of the SA- Venter era, with dramatic results (on the pitch) - would you advocate that approach?
Quote:CookieQuote:blucherquinQuote:Cookie
So, I never wanted JK as DOR and I stand by this opinion whether it turned out to be right or wrong. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance when we consider some of the big names that had been linked with the job (and yes, I include Lancaster who seems to be doing a pretty good job at Leinster).
But I dispute JK's assertion that we got on his case straight off the bat. I attended all home games and some away games in the hope that I was wrong. By the turn of the year, and specifically the inept Newcastle and Worcester games, it was apparent that things were not right. That's when voices really spoke out against JK, myself included.
As talkshowhost86 said, we do have the squad. Yes, we've had injuries, but we've lost games when full strength (Worcester). But we've also put in some great performances. The Wasps game, to me, seemed like the players grabbed the moment and played for each other and particularly those leaving. We barely kicked the ball and ran with purpose and creativity.
And as a final point, I do despair that one person is being held up as the voice of everyone that isn't happy with our coaching set up. Most of us put together cogent and qualified reasons, yet continually get beaten with the same stick of the extreme views of one person.
Simply put, we will finish 6th or 7th this season. In my opinion, our squad is better than that.
Im not sure about JK at all yet.
But that particular argument doesn't work does it?
Our squad has been "better than that" for five years and we've been out for the top 4 for the last 3, of which he's been coaching just this one.
That's precisely my point. The team has shown it can play well, but it would appear JK and MT (we must stop making it all about JK) can't unlock that potential regularly enough. It's not all about DOR for me as I've said many times. Coaching as a whole is the problem, which is why last summer was the chance for a clear out and fresh staff and ideas.
Quote:Nev's Left Boot
Just putting this out there but last season we finished 7th winning 10 games, this season we have won 11 games and have a good chance of finishing 6th.
This is an improvement.
I have higher expectations, but the squad is essentially the same and we have had some rotten luck with injuries.
Quote:Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?
Quote:Bolly-Quin
Losscester's run in the cup has been good - no argument - like ours last year: if they go on to win the cup, then hats off to the new coaching side.
But in the 3 matches In the AP since losing at home to Quins that triggered the resignation, they have beaten two sides below them and lost away to Newcastle - one of the reasons you have previously used as a point of dissatisfaction at Quins team - and before you say it, their performance is what counts and reading Shedweb would suggest that didn't deliver at Falcons.
As for Blackadder at Bath, they have not had a glorious season, have they, RR: apart from smashing Losscester last weekend, this year (2017) they have lost to Newcastle (like we did), Bristol, Wasps, Sarracens (by more than us) and Worcester - the other team that is commonly used to set as a standard not to lose to - albeit while also winning close games at "home" to Tigers and Saints.
So I don't think there is much to the supposition that changing coaching can make such a difference. It's taken 2 changes at Tigers this season and they are 4th. It may well take a few more season for the reality to rise to the surface, granted, but this seasons evidence, there is little pudding-proof.
Quote:RodneyRegisQuote:Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?
Blackadder...
Quote:RodneyRegis
Come come now. Apparently if we lose this week we've had a worse season than last year, if we win then it's better - all about table position.
Quote:They finished 9th after having signed up Blackadder - yes, I know he had no impact; but as Blucher says, their form had been topsy-turvy anyway and the previous year had finished 2nd - finishing 9th coincided with the awful decision to try and shoe-in Burgess and the collateral damage it caused.Cookie
Bath didn't accept finishing 9th and made changes. At a minimum they'll finish 5th.
Quote:Indeed - used to success - got rid of Cockerill and some time after, Mauger. So the initial sacking didn't seem to have much effect. Should JK/MM/CO been given the heave-ho, who knows what might happen next - this illustrates that simply removing someone doesn't always herald success.Cookie
Leicester, after 13 consecutive playoff finishes, were worried about falling out of the top 4 so did something about it. They will likely make the top 4.
Quote:But you use the same set of criteria to beat our coaches/team/performances and its not OK - its inconsistent. You have said many times, recently, that its not results, its performance.Cookie
As for Gloucester, whatever the quality of their wins, they won. It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going.
Quote:DOK
I give it half next season. Not to get it right, but to show me they can get it right and to give me confidence that they will get it right. If I'm not convinced by then, then maybe a big change at that point will rescue the season. So I'm not looking to see us lead the table (though it would be nice) but for all the talk of new blood, is it settling in and is it clearly making a difference? Having had all summer to iron out the changes JK wanted to implement, are we obviously playing better?
It's not just about results. Try and view objectively how we played against Exeter, and we certainly should have beaten them. Two uncharacteristic misses by Mike Brown cost us two tries, a lucky sideways bounce a third. But we played well, and the guts and determination we showed to get that last try, even though it had no effect on the outcome, showed me the determination this team has to do better. The result was bad, but we played well. I can live with that. It's the poor performance where we seem all at sea that I don't want to see ever again.
Quote:blucherquinQuote:RodneyRegisQuote:Mayor West
Part of the problem with blaming one person is that, unless you replace mid season and see an instant impact, you can't tell how the same season would have turned out with a different person. How does any of us know how we would have done with somebody else at the helm this season? We could have done better but we also could have done a lot worse. Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a in inDOR lately?
Blackadder...
Yep, he's failed to get them into the top 4.
Bath finishes since 2010 -- 5th, 8th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, 9th, 5th...
Not quite sure what to make of anyone's impact given that variable form...
Quote:Bolly-QuinQuote:They finished 9th after having signed up Blackadder - yes, I know he had no impact; but as Blucher says, their form had been topsy-turvy anyway and the previous year had finished 2nd - finishing 9th coincided with the awful decision to try and shoe-in Burgess and the collateral damage it caused.Cookie
Bath didn't accept finishing 9th and made changes. At a minimum they'll finish 5th.
Quote:Indeed - used to success - got rid of Cockerill and some time after, Mauger. So the initial sacking didn't seem to have much effect. Should JK/MM/CO been given the heave-ho, who knows what might happen next - this illustrates that simply removing someone doesn't always herald success.Cookie
Leicester, after 13 consecutive playoff finishes, were worried about falling out of the top 4 so did something about it. They will likely make the top 4.
Quote:But you use the same set of criteria to beat our coaches/team/performances and its not OK - its inconsistent. You have said many times, recently, that its not results, its performance.Cookie
As for Gloucester, whatever the quality of their wins, they won. It would be rather silly to suggest they would have won them anyway given the way they were going.
Your assertion has been for some time that improvements would come with a change in coaching staff (as wholesale club clearcut wasn't best way): I am trying to suggest that simply changing coaching staff mid season is not a guaranteed way to improve results, as the examples you present show.
Quote:Cookie
Bath finished 9th last season, before Blackadder joined. This year 4th or 5th.
Quote:Cookie
I didn't mean the quality of Gloucesters rugby. I meant the quality of their opponents. That should have been clear as you were suggesting they only beat poor teams.
Quote:Cookie
Obviously changes don't guarantee anything. But the recent examples in the AP would suggest they did bring improvement.