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Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 18:55
Can't believe people are still holding up Blackadder as some sort of magical signing! Geoffrey Boycott's gran could have lifted Bath from 9th place with that squad.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 19:12
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Right. So Blackadder hasn't improved Bath, it's just that he didn't have to deal with Burgess. http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg

LOL - that explains everything - you're talking about the wrong posts!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 19:37
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Can't believe people are still holding up Blackadder as some sort of magical signing! Geoffrey Boycott's gran could have lifted Bath from 9th place with that squad.

But apparently he didn't improve them, so it's moot!!!

I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Mayor West (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 19:54
Bath are probably not the best example because of what went on there last season. It was an unusual circumstance with the Burgess situation and the reasons why Ford left.It wasn't as if it was poor results because of poor leadership. Blackadder wasn't brought in to save a sinking ship.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 21:10
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

Where has that been intimated, Cookie?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 21:54
Quote:
RleQuin
Let's face it, we've been like this for years with the odd highlight thrown in.
On our day, we can beat anyone.
The real test comes next week when we will know what we have to do to finish sixth.
For me, this has been our worst season since 2012/13 - so much promise and yet all we got was excuse after excuse.
RleQ

Was that the season we won the LV, got to the Q-final of the Hein Cup and Semis of the Prem?

Yeah what a terrible season because we always win those trophies each year......

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
03 May, 2017 22:03
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I've said this many times on here before but still think it's the case that whilst everyone within the coaching team (as Cookie says it's not just JK) talks a good game, actually seeing something positive being implemented is completely different and I just haven't really seen what the current coaching setup has brought to the table compared to what we had previously.
Our defence has improved from the start of the season, but I think that's because we saw a severe drop off in our defence in the first few games and we're now getting back to where we were last season rather than being significantly better.

In attack we still make the same daft mistakes with our kick-chase and we still butcher important set-pieces in attack. Whilst we have perhaps seen a move to a more direct game than the endless side to side we saw in the death throes of COS' reign, I certainly wouldn't say I've seen enough to suggest we are significantly progressing.

And this is what leads to the inconsistency we've seen all season. We rely on individual skill rather than a system or any collective knowledge of what we're aiming to do, so if players are out or off-form, then it all falls apart.

Maybe JK is right and we tried to do too much too soon at the start of the season, and we've also had lots of injuries/call ups etc (although the club can't say it hasn't had a chance to mitigate that), and the signs for 60 minutes against Exeter and then 80 against Wasps were promising.

But if we don't get a result at Northampton, regardless of whether we sneak through with a LBP, it will show we've not found any level of consistency even after a full season and that is a bit worrying. It then becomes a question of how long do you give the current setup before starting again properly?

For me, because so many of the current setup were there under the previously deteriorating regime, they wouldn't get as much time as a whole new team coming in would. But if the decision has been made to give JK at least another year then that's fair enough (I don't necessarily agree but fair enough) but I think we'll know by December whether it was the correct decision or not.

Don't agree with your rugby reflections.

Defensively we are better off than last season(Exeter at home loss), we were nearly most points against at the end of last season. However I agree that it is way too inconsistent and the same mistakes get made.

In attack its the complete opposite of what you say. Listening to JK and remembering BT analysis etc we played a narrow game that was direct and are now trying to play a wider game . We still cough up the ball too easily.

Like some on here agree Wasps were woeful and if that had been earlier in the season people wouldn't be talking it up so much, its only because of their league position when they have been struggling of late. Exeter Brown had a shocker and gifted 2 or 3 tries but the team played quite well.

JK will have his squad next year in the most part and i think the summer's optimism or not will be as a result of what happens on saturday. If its the away day Quins from earlier in the season or the on thats played the last 2 friday nights?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RleQuin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 00:22
[quote TitusQuin][quote RleQuin]Let's face it, we've been like this for years with the odd highlight thrown in.
On our day, we can beat anyone.
The real test comes next week when we will know what we have to do to finish sixth.
For me, this has been our worst season since 2012/13 - so much promise and yet all we got was excuse after excuse.
RleQ[/quote]

Was that the season we won the LV, got to the Q-final of the Hein Cup and Semis of the Prem?

Yeah what a terrible season because we always win those trophies each year......[/quote

It's been the worst since 2012/13 because that was a good one and we've been going slowly downhill since. Why would I say that was a bad season? There was so much promise then but excuse after excuse was all we got as the performances went bad. Every season since then has not been particularly good has it?
RleQ



Team member of CrossKeys – WINNERS of Harlequins 150th Anniversary Quiz

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 11:22
When you say "the worst x since y" then you're implicitly suggesting that y was worse. "The worst war since world war 2", for example.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RleQuin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 12:38
I know what I meant!! (Sm6)

Okay, since our great season of 2012/13, we have been slowly going downhill and this season has been the worst yet.
RleQ



Team member of CrossKeys – WINNERS of Harlequins 150th Anniversary Quiz

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Banstead Quin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 13:10
So I'm hoping that we secure 6th on Saturday and then look to be a more comfortable 5th or 6th next season, with an outside chance of 4th going into the final game.

Along with the A/W cup final and the knock out stages of the Champions cup and then I think it will have been a great season next time round.

Then consistency and progressing each season and getting into Top 4 every season.

I'll consider that as good progress, although it will be tough but not a bad thing to aim for.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 14:09
Quote:
Banstead Quin
So I'm hoping that we secure 6th on Saturday and then look to be a more comfortable 5th or 6th next season, with an outside chance of 4th going into the final game.
Along with the A/W cup final and the knock out stages of the Champions cup and then I think it will have been a great season next time round.

Then consistency and progressing each season and getting into Top 4 every season.

I'll consider that as good progress, although it will be tough but not a bad thing to aim for.

Not sure 6th placed AP sides get into the 1/4 Finals of the Champions Cup!

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 14:11
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

Where has that been intimated, Cookie?

The original question was "Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?"

The answer was Blackadder.

Not sure how that can really be disputed. Blaming everything on burgess seems like revisionism too.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 18:30
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

Where has that been intimated, Cookie?

The original question was "Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?"

The answer was Blackadder.

Not sure how that can really be disputed. Blaming everything on burgess seems like revisionism too.

*sigh* do you really believe that TB has had a "massive" impact at Bath? Ford took them to the final and a 2nd place in the league one year and the following year they finished 9th - I am sure Ford didn't lose his marbles that fast (although I'll agree, he didn't make much impact at Toulon, although he was at another money-enriched club) and if you had read anything on the Bath board during that season, the Burgess thing did have an effect - possibly on the England set up too.

When Quins' form's discussed - usually negatively (and with some reason) - we tend to use a longer term, a 3-4 season period, but when discussing Bath's, it's only one season - seems to be picking statistics to prove a point.

Mauger had a massive effect - he was fired after 2 months...(Sm100)

And I'm pretty sure no-one has suggested
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

as Cookie has inferred...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Mayor West (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 19:02
How are Glocester doing after their head coach resigned?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 20:12
Same as before - winning some, losing some.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 20:38
Quote:
Mayor West
How are Glocester doing after their head coach resigned?

Might finish 9th if they lose at the weekend...

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 20:53
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

Where has that been intimated, Cookie?

The original question was "Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?"

The answer was Blackadder.

Not sure how that can really be disputed. Blaming everything on burgess seems like revisionism too.

Sorry but that's nonsense:

Bath finishes since 2010/11 - 5,8,7,5,2,9,5

Don't see how that makes Blackadder any different to any of their other coaches. If anything Ford gave them their best shot when they ended up runners up.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Mayor West (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 21:07
I rest my case.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 22:10
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

Where has that been intimated, Cookie?

The original question was "Other than EJ who else has had a massive impact when replacing a DOR lately?"

The answer was Blackadder.

Not sure how that can really be disputed. Blaming everything on burgess seems like revisionism too.

*sigh* do you really believe that TB has had a "massive" impact at Bath? Ford took them to the final and a 2nd place in the league one year and the following year they finished 9th - I am sure Ford didn't lose his marbles that fast (although I'll agree, he didn't make much impact at Toulon, although he was at another money-enriched club) and if you had read anything on the Bath board during that season, the Burgess thing did have an effect - possibly on the England set up too.

When Quins' form's discussed - usually negatively (and with some reason) - we tend to use a longer term, a 3-4 season period, but when discussing Bath's, it's only one season - seems to be picking statistics to prove a point.

Mauger had a massive effect - he was fired after 2 months...(Sm100)

And I'm pretty sure no-one has suggested
Quote:
Cookie
...I'm finding it amusing that I'm being told he didn't and it was obvious he would at the same time. Priceless.

as Cookie has inferred...

No, some people use a long period to suggest that we are a mid table team, ignoring the fact that currently we have loads of the same guys who won the league. Bath on the other hand, up until a couple of seasons ago, played russian roulette and only seemed to employ Matt banahan for more than one 2 season cycle.

Taking a team from the doldrums to the top of the league (which was the immediate impact - they've fallen away now but were top 3 for most of the season) is a pretty serious impact by my reckoning.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 23:27
If it had been Worcester, yes, but the team that reached the final a couple of years ago - not really. He's had a decent impact but will he get them back up to second or beyond?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
04 May, 2017 23:44
Which was the season they breached?

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 07:16
The point being that Bkackadder may well prove to be Bath's best ever coach, but so far the club are back to their average league position of the past 7 years after one worse season, very similar to their up,and down performance over the whole period.

So I just don't think it's yet true that he's done an Eddie Jones.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 07:47
The question was 'did TB improve Bath?' They went from 9th to 4th/5th, so I would suggest he did.

You can't then open this up to a random period of 3/4/7/10 years and throw in a situation whereby one player was seemingly entirely responsible for their failings last season.

If the question was 'based on Bath's performances over several years that pre-date the previous coaching group and one or two before that, has TB done a good job?', then the point would be valid.

But it wasn't. So it isn't.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 07:54
Quote:
blucherquin
The point being that Bkackadder may well prove to be Bath's best ever coach, but so far the club are back to their average league position of the past 7 years after one worse season, very similar to their up,and down performance over the whole period.
So I just don't think it's yet true that he's done an Eddie Jones.

Oh look, another subjective timeframe. Please look at bath's squad from 4 years ago, let alone 7, and tell me how that can be relevant in any way. Blackadder is not working with the squad from 7 years ago any more than JK is.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 08:22
TB has obviously improved Bath from 9th to probably 5th - I think our contention is that 9th was an anomaly (for which ever reason) and that 5th is a more long term average (and modal) league position for Bath, in which case it doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. Let's see where Bath (and Quins) are this time next year.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:29
Quote:
Cookie
The question was 'did TB improve Bath?' They went from 9th to 4th/5th, so I would suggest he did.
You can't then open this up to a random period of 3/4/7/10 years and throw in a situation whereby one player was seemingly entirely responsible for their failings last season.

If the question was 'based on Bath's performances over several years that pre-date the previous coaching group and one or two before that, has TB done a good job?', then the point would be valid.

But it wasn't. So it isn't.

By that logic, JK has improved Quins. We've gone from 7th to 6th.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:49
Quote:
Cookie
Not sure 6th placed AP sides get into the 1/4 Finals of the Champions Cup!

Wasps did the season before last.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Banstead Quin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:50
Not sure 6th placed AP sides get into the 1/4 Finals of the Champions Cup![/quote]

I understand that Cookie but my assumption is based on the fact that we will improve next season so will be able to string together 3 very good home performances and at least one away win and some BPs which will get us through. I don't see that as impossible for us if we carry the performances over the last couple of games into tomorrow and next season.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:52
[quote Banstead Quin]Not sure 6th placed AP sides get into the 1/4 Finals of the Champions Cup![/quote]

I understand that Cookie but my assumption is based on the fact that we will improve next season so will be able to string together 3 very good home performances and at least one away win and some BPs which will get us through. I don't see that as impossible for us if we carry the performances over the last couple of games into tomorrow and next season.[/quote]

Yes, fair enough. And forgot Wasps, JG.

I think I'd like to see us challenge for Top 4 in England, though. Don't think we're good enough to challenge for the Top 8 of Europe until we find some consistency.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:52
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
The question was 'did TB improve Bath?' They went from 9th to 4th/5th, so I would suggest he did.
You can't then open this up to a random period of 3/4/7/10 years and throw in a situation whereby one player was seemingly entirely responsible for their failings last season.

If the question was 'based on Bath's performances over several years that pre-date the previous coaching group and one or two before that, has TB done a good job?', then the point would be valid.

But it wasn't. So it isn't.

By that logic, JK has improved Quins. We've gone from 7th to 6th.

Indeed.

Personally I don't think we've improved much in the way we play, but if come Saturday we're in the Champions Cup having not been in it previously, you'd have to say that JK has marginally improved us.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Cookie (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 11:59
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
The question was 'did TB improve Bath?' They went from 9th to 4th/5th, so I would suggest he did.
You can't then open this up to a random period of 3/4/7/10 years and throw in a situation whereby one player was seemingly entirely responsible for their failings last season.

If the question was 'based on Bath's performances over several years that pre-date the previous coaching group and one or two before that, has TB done a good job?', then the point would be valid.

But it wasn't. So it isn't.

By that logic, JK has improved Quins. We've gone from 7th to 6th.

Indeed.

Personally I don't think we've improved much in the way we play, but if come Saturday we're in the Champions Cup having not been in it previously, you'd have to say that JK has marginally improved us.

Agree on our style (and consistency) and we didn't make the last 4 of the Challenge Cup.

But, yes, would absolutely say that would be the case. Give the man his dues. It would be starting from the similar low base that Blackadder was working from, but top 6 would be an improvement. I just see so much more possibility for this squad.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 12:31
Quote:
Cookie
I just see so much more possibility for this squad.

I doubt anyone would argue with that.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 15:09
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
I just see so much more possibility for this squad.

I doubt anyone would argue with that.

On this board, I certainly wouldn`t bet against it.

 
Re: I know I'm going to get flamed....,
blucherquin (IP Logged)
05 May, 2017 22:48
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
blucherquin
The point being that Bkackadder may well prove to be Bath's best ever coach, but so far the club are back to their average league position of the past 7 years after one worse season, very similar to their up,and down performance over the whole period.
So I just don't think it's yet true that he's done an Eddie Jones.

Oh look, another subjective timeframe. Please look at bath's squad from 4 years ago, let alone 7, and tell me how that can be relevant in any way. Blackadder is not working with the squad from 7 years ago any more than JK is.

Oh ffs.

The point is by any definition Bath's 9th to 5th is hardly miracle work is it? He may not be working with the squad from 7 years ago but he is working with the squad from one year ago and managed to get them stop screwing up whatever they screwed up last year - which was a one off anyway when you look at something beyond the one year of 9th to 5th that you insist represents the second coming of Mohammed, Jesus or Elvis.

I couldn't care less really so subjectivity has nothing to do with it. I just don't think Bath going back to where they've been on average in resent years is a good example of someone being better than Kingston by "turning a club around",

If someone had taken Falcons or Worcs to 4th/5th in one season, I'd agree - for example.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2017 06:27 by blucherquin.

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