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LOCKS
STOOPER (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 12:10
With the retirement of Mark Reddish and non continued absence of Sam Twomey through injury we look light in this area with only Matthews and Merrick with first team expirience.

I am not sure if Stan South has made his debut yet and the new guy Gunn ? does not look like starter material yet..

Are we likely to import a another Southern Hemisphere guy as otherwise we look to be short of bodies.

The real bonus this season would be if Merrick and/or Matthews make a significant step up and challenge each other for a start place alongside Horwill. In his case we are very vulnerable if he gets injured..

 
Re: LOCKS
T-Bone (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 12:11
CAPS LOCKS

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 12:40
(Sm128)
Quote:
T-Bone
CAPS LOCKS


But more broadly, yes, I think it's fair to say lock and wing are the areas where injury could leave us badly exposed again this year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/07/2017 12:41 by blucherquin.

 
Re: LOCKS
Cookie (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 13:54
This has been extensively discussed and generally agreed on.

Not sure we're short of wingers, though, with Yarde, Visser, Walker, Alofa (surely going to be pushed wide by Saili's arrival and Sloan's return), Mikalcius and Chisholm.

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:08
Ibitoye can also play wing

 
Re: LOCKS
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:15
Yep, wingers will be fine. I know we've got more there than usual but I'm pretty sure we'll struggle at centre as ever. Even though we'll probably have them available, no two will ever get a chance to nail down a partnership.

 
Re: LOCKS
T-Bone (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:18
Agree that centres and locks are likely to be the issue rather than wingers. As for whether we are looking to address that, who knows

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:19
Quote:
Cookie
This has been extensively discussed and generally agreed on.
Not sure we're short of wingers, though, with Yarde, Visser, Walker, Alofa (surely going to be pushed wide by Saili's arrival and Sloan's return), Mikalcius and Chisholm.

We have very few subjects to talk about, it's not even August...go on let's keep going.

You may be right on the wing...but we'll lose Visser to Scotland - so an injury on top of that worries me, but probably only because I don't know enough about the others.

Ross Chis - prefer him at 15, Alofa - not really convinced, Sloan don't know about and likewise keep reading that Mikalcius is the next big thing but does anyone know if he's actually progressing? BBC tipped him to make debut last season..

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:42
From what I read about Mickalcius, loads of strength and pace, knows how to finish but his positioning sense leaves a lot to be desired

 
Re: LOCKS
fandg2 (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:43
A couple of points of order:

Point 1) South made his 1st team debut last season and featured on more than a couple of occasions.

Point 2) Cheeseman's also a winger and doubles as a centre (and backrow) ref numerous A league games and the NZ Moari game, where he started at 12

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 14:52
Fandg2, I get the impression you have seen quite a bit of our younger lads play (more than me). Cheeseman - Best position???

 
Re: LOCKS
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 15:37
How many locks does one need?

Horwill
Merrick
Matthews
Twomey
Glynn
South

And Luamanu if need be?

We have four good locks
Plus a youngster and guy who can fill in?

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 15:48
Quote:
Nev's Left Boot
How many locks does one need?
Horwill
Merrick
Matthews
Twomey
Glynn
South

And Luamanu if need be?

We have four good locks
Plus a youngster and guy who can fill in?

Glynn is injury cover for Twomey.

Think most people's fears - certainly mine - are based on failure in their eyes of Matthews and Merrick to develop or look like they would worry the opposition.

 
Re: LOCKS
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 16:07
So the question is not
have we got enough locks?
But
are our locks good enough?

I think Merrick and twomey are very good and alongside Horwill all good.

Matthews never kicked on from the expectation he had but he's more than fine as a fourth choice lock.

South, might grow into the role, shame we lost Tredwell really!

Glynn looks huge and may have a few street smarts having played lower down the league.

Don't rate Luamanu that much?

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 16:29
If we loose Horwill we are in trouble. Twomey is injured, Merrick can be good but can also be a bit anonymous. He needs some consistency in his game. Matthews, I agree with what was said above. South is only young and unknown in terms of prem rugby. Glynn, I confess to not knowing much about him. Based on that it seems that barring Horwill there are a lot of if/buts about the rest of our locks.

 
Re: LOCKS
T-Bone (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 16:36
Matthews is fine and more consistent than Merrick. People have a massive downer on him because we kept him in the academy and let Launchbury go, and he's not as good as some other locks his age. But then again he's considerably better than other locks his age. People expect him to be the huge, aggressive lump type of lock and criticise him for not offering that, but then don't credit the other stuff he offers, like athleticism and very good lineout work. I will admit he's guilty of conceding silly penalties and I'd obviously love to see him carry harder, but he's not the waste of space some would claim.

Regarding Cheeseman, from what I've seen of him, I'm struggling to believe he'll make it as a premiership winger. He's big, but not that fast. Also conceded a stupid try last season, but not going to hold that against him (for too long!)

 
Re: LOCKS
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 16:58
Quote:
T-Bone
Matthews is fine and more consistent than Merrick. People have a massive downer on him because we kept him in the academy and let Launchbury go, and he's not as good as some other locks his age. But then again he's considerably better than other locks his age. People expect him to be the huge, aggressive lump type of lock and criticise him for not offering that, but then don't credit the other stuff he offers, like athleticism and very good lineout work. I will admit he's guilty of conceding silly penalties and I'd obviously love to see him carry harder, but he's not the waste of space some would claim.

Well said.

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 17:22
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
T-Bone
Matthews is fine and more consistent than Merrick. People have a massive downer on him because we kept him in the academy and let Launchbury go, and he's not as good as some other locks his age. But then again he's considerably better than other locks his age. People expect him to be the huge, aggressive lump type of lock and criticise him for not offering that, but then don't credit the other stuff he offers, like athleticism and very good lineout work. I will admit he's guilty of conceding silly penalties and I'd obviously love to see him carry harder, but he's not the waste of space some would claim.

Well said.

I wasnt a quins fan when we let launchbury go, my worries about him are simply watching him for past 5 years - he's good in the line out - I'm not a "waste of space" person - he just seems to not quite be the player he looked like he was going to be.

And on Nev's point - yes it's quality - if Horwill is injured we don't have someone to own it at 4+5 like he does

 
Re: LOCKS
Scrumhead (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 19:18
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
T-Bone
Matthews is fine and more consistent than Merrick. People have a massive downer on him because we kept him in the academy and let Launchbury go, and he's not as good as some other locks his age. But then again he's considerably better than other locks his age. People expect him to be the huge, aggressive lump type of lock and criticise him for not offering that, but then don't credit the other stuff he offers, like athleticism and very good lineout work. I will admit he's guilty of conceding silly penalties and I'd obviously love to see him carry harder, but he's not the waste of space some would claim.

Well said.

I wasnt a quins fan when we let launchbury go, my worries about him are simply watching him for past 5 years - he's good in the line out - I'm not a "waste of space" person - he just seems to not quite be the player he looked like he was going to be.

And on Nev's point - yes it's quality - if Horwill is injured we don't have someone to own it at 4+5 like he does

I agree with all of the above.

I've been pretty critical of our lock options in the past, but actually when you look around the Premiership, there aren't that many sides with more than 3 very good locks. the rest are made up of reserves and young prospects like ours.

Look at the top 4 for example:

Saracens: Itoje / Kruis / Skelton / Day / Isiekwe

Exeter: Dennis / Lees / Hill / Atkins / Caulfield

Wasps: Launchbury / Symons / Gaskell / Myall / Rowlands

Tigers: Barrow / Slater / Kitchener / Fitzgerald / Wells

I'd take ours over Exeter and while the others are better than ours, they're not bursting at the seams with test class players.

Beyond the top 4, Bath have a decent set, but other than that, it's fairly slim pickings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/07/2017 19:34 by Scrumhead.

 
Re: LOCKS
fandg2 (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 19:45
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Fandg2, I get the impression you have seen quite a bit of our younger lads play (more than me). Cheeseman - Best position???

lol, I've been watching Cheeseman, Treadwell and South since they were 7/8 yo Seb AO and Big Josh since they were 14 yo so yes I have seen quite a bit of them over the years lol. It was really gratyifing seeing Treadwell get his cap for Ireland this summer as I can still see him as a gangly leggy 7 yo on the wing for Chipsted, wearing a scrum cap. Shame we could'nt hang onto him.

With regards to Cheeseman, the only position he hasn't played in a match is 9! (includes 7s positions where he's played all along the front row). He could make it on the wing just depends what is wanted. Straight line speed is very good, have a look at his debut against Bath and see where he's come from to support Sloan's try early doors. Probably not as nippy as some though. Defensively he's probably the best of the lot, coming from England age grade backrow but gut feeling is that he'll end up in the centres, probably as 12. Gotta feeling him and Marchant could make a good pairing as Cheeseman has a good offloading game.

We'll see, I think all the young lads just need a chance and a decent run of games in the colours to develope, so hoping the new A league format will give them a chance to shine.

 
Re: LOCKS
fandg2 (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 20:01
Quote:
T-Bone

Regarding Cheeseman, from what I've seen of him, I'm struggling to believe he'll make it as a premiership winger. He's big, but not that fast. Also conceded a stupid try last season, but not going to hold that against him (for too long!)

If you're refering to the Worcester game I think that's a tadge harsh on the lad, all Cheeseman did was keep the ball in play which is something numerous Quins players have done numerous times over the years. Probably only guilty of not looking after the ball. It wasn't his fault that the touch judge mistakenly put up his flag which stopped several Quins player from playing on, Worcester players just reacted quicker to the situation. Personally I think the ref was at fault for allowing the try as it was clearly obvious what had happen.

PS Don't want to appear perdantic but it wasn't last season but the season before ;-) Cheeseman only played against the Osprey's last season for the 1st XV. Time fly's lol

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 July, 2017 20:18
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
T-Bone

Regarding Cheeseman, from what I've seen of him, I'm struggling to believe he'll make it as a premiership winger. He's big, but not that fast. Also conceded a stupid try last season, but not going to hold that against him (for too long!)

If you're refering to the Worcester game I think that's a tadge harsh on the lad, all Cheeseman did was keep the ball in play which is something numerous Quins players have done numerous times over the years. Probably only guilty of not looking after the ball. It wasn't his fault that the touch judge mistakenly put up his flag which stopped several Quins player from playing on, Worcester players just reacted quicker to the situation. Personally I think the ref was at fault for allowing the try as it was clearly obvious what had happen.

PS Don't want to appear perdantic but it wasn't last season but the season before ;-) Cheeseman only played against the Osprey's last season for the 1st XV. Time fly's lol

Blimey was that two years ago? Yeah really not his fault - particularity as he'd been playing back row still (I think) and then suddenly found himself on the wing for the senior team coz we had no one left!

 
Re: LOCKS
T-Bone (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 09:34
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
T-Bone

Regarding Cheeseman, from what I've seen of him, I'm struggling to believe he'll make it as a premiership winger. He's big, but not that fast. Also conceded a stupid try last season, but not going to hold that against him (for too long!)

If you're refering to the Worcester game I think that's a tadge harsh on the lad, all Cheeseman did was keep the ball in play which is something numerous Quins players have done numerous times over the years. Probably only guilty of not looking after the ball. It wasn't his fault that the touch judge mistakenly put up his flag which stopped several Quins player from playing on, Worcester players just reacted quicker to the situation. Personally I think the ref was at fault for allowing the try as it was clearly obvious what had happen.

PS Don't want to appear perdantic but it wasn't last season but the season before ;-) Cheeseman only played against the Osprey's last season for the 1st XV. Time fly's lol

Blimey was that two years ago? Yeah really not his fault - particularity as he'd been playing back row still (I think) and then suddenly found himself on the wing for the senior team coz we had no one left!

Don't worry, I'm really not holding it against him. Was a stupid bit of play, but many far more experienced players have done much worse

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 09:58
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Fandg2, I get the impression you have seen quite a bit of our younger lads play (more than me). Cheeseman - Best position???

lol, I've been watching Cheeseman, Treadwell and South since they were 7/8 yo Seb AO and Big Josh since they were 14 yo so yes I have seen quite a bit of them over the years lol. It was really gratyifing seeing Treadwell get his cap for Ireland this summer as I can still see him as a gangly leggy 7 yo on the wing for Chipsted, wearing a scrum cap. Shame we could'nt hang onto him.

With regards to Cheeseman, the only position he hasn't played in a match is 9! (includes 7s positions where he's played all along the front row). He could make it on the wing just depends what is wanted. Straight line speed is very good, have a look at his debut against Bath and see where he's come from to support Sloan's try early doors. Probably not as nippy as some though. Defensively he's probably the best of the lot, coming from England age grade backrow but gut feeling is that he'll end up in the centres, probably as 12. Gotta feeling him and Marchant could make a good pairing as Cheeseman has a good offloading game.

We'll see, I think all the young lads just need a chance and a decent run of games in the colours to develope, so hoping the new A league format will give them a chance to shine.

Thanks.

It was a shame Treadwell decided to leave but maybe he has been proved right (Got his Ireland Cap). Although who knows, if he stayed maybe he would be in the England mix??

Will be interesting to see where Cheeseman ends up playing. On one hand you could say it is great for a young player to try his hand in different areas but at some point there comes a time when you need to nail down a specific position to work on. Avoid becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

 
Re: LOCKS
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 10:26
From someone who is not a quins fan, I think you have good locks and certainly good premiership level locks, what you don't have are Game changing locks like an Itoje or a lawes but, there are not many of those around. I think the only teams that have better locks than you guys are sarries, wasps, bath and maybe tigers but that's nip and tuck, the first three teams have much better locks though IMO. You also have Okafor who is going to be very good in a few years so i'll not be too down on the locks if i was a quins fan. It's not a massive strength but i don't see it as a weakness

 
Re: LOCKS
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 10:37
Gives us something to moan about though!!!

 
Re: LOCKS
fandg2 (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 10:40
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Fandg2, I get the impression you have seen quite a bit of our younger lads play (more than me). Cheeseman - Best position???

lol, I've been watching Cheeseman, Treadwell and South since they were 7/8 yo Seb AO and Big Josh since they were 14 yo so yes I have seen quite a bit of them over the years lol. It was really gratyifing seeing Treadwell get his cap for Ireland this summer as I can still see him as a gangly leggy 7 yo on the wing for Chipsted, wearing a scrum cap. Shame we could'nt hang onto him.

With regards to Cheeseman, the only position he hasn't played in a match is 9! (includes 7s positions where he's played all along the front row). He could make it on the wing just depends what is wanted. Straight line speed is very good, have a look at his debut against Bath and see where he's come from to support Sloan's try early doors. Probably not as nippy as some though. Defensively he's probably the best of the lot, coming from England age grade backrow but gut feeling is that he'll end up in the centres, probably as 12. Gotta feeling him and Marchant could make a good pairing as Cheeseman has a good offloading game.

We'll see, I think all the young lads just need a chance and a decent run of games in the colours to develope, so hoping the new A league format will give them a chance to shine.

Thanks.

It was a shame Treadwell decided to leave but maybe he has been proved right (Got his Ireland Cap). Although who knows, if he stayed maybe he would be in the England mix??

Will be interesting to see where Cheeseman ends up playing. On one hand you could say it is great for a young player to try his hand in different areas but at some point there comes a time when you need to nail down a specific position to work on. Avoid becoming a jack of all trades, master of none.

Yeah I guess that Treadwell saw a better path to International rugby via Ireland and as you say, has been proven right. Twas always going to be a struggle going the 'England' route behind Itoji, Kruis, Lawes , Launchbury, Ewells, etc as none of them are that old.


Yep agree with Cheeseman although I don't think the player gets too much say in what position they get to play. His developement has also probably been hampered playing on the wing over at Richmond, as they were never going to be playing an expansive game to stay in the championship. However, Elliot Daly hasn't done too bad ping ponging around various positions so who knows?

 
Re: LOCKS
blucherquin (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 11:11
Quote:
T-Bone
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
T-Bone

Regarding Cheeseman, from what I've seen of him, I'm struggling to believe he'll make it as a premiership winger. He's big, but not that fast. Also conceded a stupid try last season, but not going to hold that against him (for too long!)

If you're refering to the Worcester game I think that's a tadge harsh on the lad, all Cheeseman did was keep the ball in play which is something numerous Quins players have done numerous times over the years. Probably only guilty of not looking after the ball. It wasn't his fault that the touch judge mistakenly put up his flag which stopped several Quins player from playing on, Worcester players just reacted quicker to the situation. Personally I think the ref was at fault for allowing the try as it was clearly obvious what had happen.

PS Don't want to appear perdantic but it wasn't last season but the season before ;-) Cheeseman only played against the Osprey's last season for the 1st XV. Time fly's lol

Blimey was that two years ago? Yeah really not his fault - particularity as he'd been playing back row still (I think) and then suddenly found himself on the wing for the senior team coz we had no one left!

Don't worry, I'm really not holding it against him. Was a stupid bit of play, but many far more experienced players have done much worse

On a related note - is wing now his position? I see he used to be back row mostly according to what i can read online but there's not a vast amount of coverage obvs.

 
Re: LOCKS
The Quin Meister (IP Logged)
26 July, 2017 15:56
Losing Twomey for a few more months and Reddish to retirement is a shame but Ben Glynn sounds an experienced operator and is a big unit. But I do think we need to replace Reddish with a quality replacement to provide competition for Matthews and Merrick. But perhaps the club will bide their time and see what is available down under.

Balanced comments from Barnetsarrie12 above. John Okafor does sound a good young prospect at lock. He's 6ft 7ins and over 17 stone and it will be interesting to see him running around the pitch at the Premiership 7s!

 
Re: LOCKS
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
27 July, 2017 10:51
Quote:
RodneyRegis
...I know we've got more there than usual but I'm pretty sure we'll struggle at centre as ever. Even though we'll probably have them available, no two will ever get a chance to nail down a partnership.

I smell a hitchhiker of galactic experience...

Marvin: “I think you ought to know I’m feeling very depressed.”
Trillian: “Well, we have something that may take your mind off it.”
Marvin: “It won’t work, I have an exceptionally large mind.“

Marvin: “I am at a rough estimate thirty billion times more intelligent than you. Let me give you an example. Think of a number, any number.”
Zem: “Er, five.”
Marvin: “Wrong. You see?”

(Sm100)

 
Re: LOCKS
ojwh (IP Logged)
27 July, 2017 14:24
Long time lurker, first time poster so be nice!

I felt obliged to mentioned I have played against John Okafor a number of times this season in the Surrey rugby leagues so thought qualified to comment.

He has a serious amount of promise! big strong carrier and superb lineout forward (also apparently plays elite level basketball which helps his cause!)

If quins can instill a nasty side to him and work on improving his handling in open play he could well become a serious operator!

Hoping with his inclusion in the academy full time I wont have to come up against him much more!

Congrats to him!

 
Re: LOCKS
DOK (IP Logged)
28 July, 2017 10:15
Thanks, ojwh. Always nice to get a personal insight into the people we (well I) know nothing about. Welcome to the board!

 
Re: LOCKS
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
01 August, 2017 16:06
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
...I know we've got more there than usual but I'm pretty sure we'll struggle at centre as ever. Even though we'll probably have them available, no two will ever get a chance to nail down a partnership.

I smell a hitchhiker of galactic experience...

Marvin: “I think you ought to know I’m feeling very depressed.”
Trillian: “Well, we have something that may take your mind off it.”
Marvin: “It won’t work, I have an exceptionally large mind.“

Marvin: “I am at a rough estimate thirty billion times more intelligent than you. Let me give you an example. Think of a number, any number.”
Zem: “Er, five.”
Marvin: “Wrong. You see?”

(Sm100)

Look, I've told you at least 42 times now.....


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