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Kingston in
SpringerQuin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:01
Just sayin'....

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:22
Much better today - but let's not get carried away!

The Cat looked good early on and as others have said Smith's hands are amazing! Really hope the injury to the Cat isn't that serious.

Our lineout is a real concern though - let's hope that was due to the mega down pour.

Will be a big test next week away at Wasps - hopefully a few players will be back from injury.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:23
Quote:
COYQ_2017
Much better today - but let's not get carried away!

Which some of us were criticised for saying last week...

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:46
Great result.

But it's a game we should win (and have done since 2005).

Doesn't change the fact that credit is due but we should have two wins from the first two games.

 
Re: Kingston in
WoTQuin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:07
We were mostly good today, with nearly everyone turning up to play. The back five of our pack is the real concern I do not understand in particular why we have not recruited an interim open side at least. But certainly no sign that the team were not playing for the management today. Thank goodness we have Robshaw and Clifford did much better today.

 
Re: Kingston in
SiBolton (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:08
Much better than last week, and up to 6th, played some excellent running rugby and great to see the pressure Danny put Glos under with repeated kicks into corner,and defence improved

 
Re: Kingston in
Quaking Quin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:40
Better but Gloucester were very poor ........

 
Re: Kingston in
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:42
Win is a win! We lost last week, and won this week. No such thing as guaranteed wins - Glos were poor today and Quins won. Great. Next game...

 
Re: Kingston in
Quaking Quin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:56
Agree a win is a win but I hope to see better rugby this season than the dire stuff (pre-downpour) served up in the first half.

 
Re: Kingston in
SiBolton (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 20:03
Sounds like the Cat will be in hospital for a couple of days, here's hoping not to serious, but think with Him and Marcus we have two very good options, and would maybe like to see Swiel as full back back up

 
Re: Kingston in
PeterboroughQuin (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 21:51
Glad the England internationals stepped up. No excuses for them. We should be winning week in, week out with the players we have. They should be in tune with one another by now. Where the hell is Visser. He should be first on the team sheet.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quins4life (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 22:18
Quote:
PeterboroughQuin
Glad the England internationals stepped up. No excuses for them. We should be winning week in, week out with the players we have. They should be in tune with one another by now. Where the hell is Visser. He should be first on the team sheet.

guessing you didn't watch todays game then? Both Yarde and Walker were outstanding

 
Re: Kingston in
SiBolton (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 08:12
Big fan of Visser, but agree both Yarde and Walker where excellent today
Thought line out much improved although still lost five and scrum also seemed better than last week and only lost one, penalty count still high at 13 but Glos had 12
Next week is going to be a very different game, but far more hopeful than this time last week

 
Re: Kingston in
Cookie (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 12:28
The lineout was utterly atrocious. Continues to be the Achilles heel that we refuse to address.

 
Re: Kingston in
Dark Pies (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 12:56
I'm not really sure what we can really take from yesterday's match other than that we won in difficult and changing circumstances (the weather, Catrakilis wiped out, lots of handbags throughout) and showed a bit of determination.

It all sort of worked - sort of - but then Glocs didn't really do much very well. Scrum was 50/50 for most of the match and i think we fluffed 3 of our own LO's in a row, continuing the last 2 seasons' weakness there. Good efforts from Yarde, Walker and Ward as well i thought. Young Smith will be very good in 5yrs but worrying that we have to pin our hopes on a teenager who needs time to grow.

Not really complaining as a win is a win of course, but i'm also not getting carried away thinking we look anything like top 6 material yet.

We now have Wasps (A), Tigers (H), Saints (A). That's 3 weeks that will probably make or break our top 6 aspirations. Good to see that Sarries, Tigers, Exeter, Saints have all slipped up in the opening rounds as well, but i don't think we can bank on that continuing now - its down to JK to show us that we can really face off with the big boys when it counts.

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

...although personally i'd just be happy with the home win vs Tigers and credible performances in all 3 matches!

EDIT: After what i said above I just had to look back through the results to see when we last won 3 Premiership matches in a row. May 2014 we won FIVE in a row

23- 9 (H) vs Irish
12-27 (A) vs Sale
24-20 (H) vs Tigers
29-30 (A) vs Exeter
19-16 (H) vs Bath

and in the 3 seasons since have not won 3 matches in a row. In fact we've only won 2 Prem matches back-to-back SEVEN times in 69 Prem matches since May 2014......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 13:39 by Dark Pies.

 
Re: Kingston in
Rocker (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 13:36
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT


Send fair. There were obvious flaws still, but it was better, scrum is still a worry as is the line out. Centres looked better, Smith looks really good, maybe not quite the finished article but a very talented young man.

 
Re: Kingston in
Scrumhead (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 16:32
Quote:
Rocker
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT


Send fair. There were obvious flaws still, but it was better, scrum is still a worry as is the line out. Centres looked better, Smith looks really good, maybe not quite the finished article but a very talented young man.

A tough series of games with two away from home. I'm not expecting a win next week but from what I've seen we should have some confidence that we can take Tigers at home and go to FG hoping to challenge Saints.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 18:04
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

In fact we've only won 2 Prem matches back-to-back SEVEN times in 69 Prem matches since May 2014......

Yet we still hold the record for the longest winning streak to start a season - 10 games I believe?

I don't understand why people try to decide whether JK will stay or be dumped after any short spell. My guess (and my hope) is that the decision will be made (if at all) when we can look at how many games we've won out of the next 20 in the Prem.

 
Re: Kingston in
Dark Pies (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 18:56
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

In fact we've only won 2 Prem matches back-to-back SEVEN times in 69 Prem matches since May 2014......

Yet we still hold the record for the longest winning streak to start a season - 10 games I believe?

I don't understand why people try to decide whether JK will stay or be dumped after any short spell. My guess (and my hope) is that the decision will be made (if at all) when we can look at how many games we've won out of the next 20 in the Prem.

Of course - even if we lose every game and get relegated nothing will change with JK until next season at the earliest. I was referring more to what the attitude of posters on this board will be based on the next 3 results!

n.b. I'm not a hardcore 'JK out' kind of guy but i have been worried since he took over that we'd further stagnate, and i don't see us doing anything other than clinging on to mid-table again this year.

 
Re: Kingston in
Cookie (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 19:27
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

In fact we've only won 2 Prem matches back-to-back SEVEN times in 69 Prem matches since May 2014......

Yet we still hold the record for the longest winning streak to start a season - 10 games I believe?

I don't understand why people try to decide whether JK will stay or be dumped after any short spell. My guess (and my hope) is that the decision will be made (if at all) when we can look at how many games we've won out of the next 20 in the Prem.

Your ability to ignore last season (or the previous 2) is boggling.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:57
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies

Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

In fact we've only won 2 Prem matches back-to-back SEVEN times in 69 Prem matches since May 2014......

Yet we still hold the record for the longest winning streak to start a season - 10 games I believe?

I don't understand why people try to decide whether JK will stay or be dumped after any short spell. My guess (and my hope) is that the decision will be made (if at all) when we can look at how many games we've won out of the next 20 in the Prem.

Your ability to ignore last season (or the previous 2) is boggling.

Last season we improved by the only metric that matters - how we finished. Your ability to ignore that simple fact is even more mind-boggling.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:59
Quote:
Dark Pies
Of course - even if we lose every game and get relegated nothing will change with JK until next season at the earliest. I was referring more to what the attitude of posters on this board will be based on the next 3 results!


Dark Pies, save your effort winking smiley We could win the European and Prem titles and some on here will be chanting "JK Out" as soon as we lose a game. Remember, it started during pre-season, when we won every game...

But it will be interesting to see at what point that start the usual attacks.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 09:22
You do realise that the JK Out" isn't a new thing? There's a reason why so many ppl are still calling for him to go - he's not good enough. Compare him talking on the game post match to interviews with Baxter, Sanderson etc.

"So John where did it go wrong today?"

"I really don't know to be honest"

Compare that to the insight / intelligence provided by other DORs and senior coaches at other clubs.

 
Re: Kingston in
DOK (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 09:20
I don't suppose you can stick to playing the same old record (over and over again) on a single thread?

I'll shut the other one to help you!

 
Re: Kingston in
T-Bone (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 09:23
Much better performance after a pretty turgid first 25 mins or so.

Lineout still a huge concern. Be good to get a specialist coach in for a few sessions, if we haven't already.

Thought we were tactically much better

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 09:33
Quote:
DOK
I don't suppose you can stick to playing the same old record (over and over again) on a single thread?
I'll shut the other one to help you!

Yes sir!

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 09:59
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies
Of course - even if we lose every game and get relegated nothing will change with JK until next season at the earliest. I was referring more to what the attitude of posters on this board will be based on the next 3 results!


Dark Pies, save your effort winking smiley We could win the European and Prem titles and some on here will be chanting "JK Out" as soon as we lose a game. Remember, it started during pre-season, when we won every game...

But it will be interesting to see at what point that start the usual attacks.

Again this is absolute rubbish.

If Quins were doing well nobody would be saying JK Out.

It's an incredibly weak 'argument' and I suspect you know that.

And the other point you keep making about it only being 'one game' is also complete tosh because there was an entire season before this one in which the same pattern emerged.

Our home record is good. Our away record is laughable. If we're happy with that then JK appears to be the man because based on the opening couple of games that's how it's going to stay this season.

It was a good win against Gloucester. If we can recreate that away from home then I'll be delighted and start to think that JK is starting to change things.

My suspicion is that we won't see that at all though, and that's based on last season (and indeed the couple of seasons before that) where nothing much has changed.

I hope I'm wrong though.

 
Re: Kingston in
SiBolton (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 10:02
Quote:
DOK
I don't suppose you can stick to playing the same old record (over and over again) on a single thread?
I'll shut the other one to help you!


Oh please that would be good,

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 10:15
One thing I would say in JK's favour is that none of the players he brought in to presumably try and address our problems have played properly yet.

Bothma and Saili are injured and now the Cat as well, and I suspect we'll only see the benefit of someone like Swainston or Lewis when the England boys are away.

Hopefully we'll actually get to see some minutes from these players at some stage in the season, and I'm sure JK is hoping so as well!

 
Re: Kingston in
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 12:50
Quote:
Dark Pies
We now have Wasps (A), Tigers (H), Saints (A). That's 3 weeks that will probably make or break our top 6 aspirations. Good to see that Sarries, Tigers, Exeter, Saints have all slipped up in the opening rounds as well, but i don't think we can bank on that continuing now - its down to JK to show us that we can really face off with the big boys when it counts.
Win 3/3 = KINGSTON IN
Win 2/3 and nobody's really complaining i hope
Win 1/3 and we'll all still be arguing about whether that's good or bad
Win 0/3 = KINGSTON OUT

...although personally i'd just be happy with the home win vs Tigers and credible performances in all 3 matches!

This...thumbs down

 
Re: Kingston in
DOK (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:00
Disagree it 's make or break. We only needed a few more wins at the end of last season to have got us top four. We could have saved the season if our last three losses were wins.

However, it will be a reasonable big ask but not impossible. I think Wasps away given our away form and given their home form is beyond us. Leicester we might conceivably do if they haven't discovered their mojo by then and were Saints home I'd back us. but Saints Away? Maybe...

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:23
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies
Of course - even if we lose every game and get relegated nothing will change with JK until next season at the earliest. I was referring more to what the attitude of posters on this board will be based on the next 3 results!


Dark Pies, save your effort winking smiley We could win the European and Prem titles and some on here will be chanting "JK Out" as soon as we lose a game. Remember, it started during pre-season, when we won every game...

But it will be interesting to see at what point that start the usual attacks.

Again this is absolute rubbish.

If Quins were doing well nobody would be saying JK Out.

It's an incredibly weak 'argument' and I suspect you know that.

And the other point you keep making about it only being 'one game' is also complete tosh because there was an entire season before this one in which the same pattern emerged.

Our home record is good. Our away record is laughable. If we're happy with that then JK appears to be the man because based on the opening couple of games that's how it's going to stay this season.

It was a good win against Gloucester. If we can recreate that away from home then I'll be delighted and start to think that JK is starting to change things.

My suspicion is that we won't see that at all though, and that's based on last season (and indeed the couple of seasons before that) where nothing much has changed.

I hope I'm wrong though.

So we can look at history as far back as it suits you. Or we can go further and undo your logic. Or we could always look at the reality and see that it's a new season, we're in 6th place after two games, and there 20 more to play. But I guess that's beyond you.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:29
How many points did Exeter put on London Irish at the weekend QK?

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:25
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Dark Pies
Of course - even if we lose every game and get relegated nothing will change with JK until next season at the earliest. I was referring more to what the attitude of posters on this board will be based on the next 3 results!


Dark Pies, save your effort winking smiley We could win the European and Prem titles and some on here will be chanting "JK Out" as soon as we lose a game. Remember, it started during pre-season, when we won every game...

But it will be interesting to see at what point that start the usual attacks.

Again this is absolute rubbish.

If Quins were doing well nobody would be saying JK Out.

It's an incredibly weak 'argument' and I suspect you know that.

And the other point you keep making about it only being 'one game' is also complete tosh because there was an entire season before this one in which the same pattern emerged.

Our home record is good. Our away record is laughable. If we're happy with that then JK appears to be the man because based on the opening couple of games that's how it's going to stay this season.

It was a good win against Gloucester. If we can recreate that away from home then I'll be delighted and start to think that JK is starting to change things.

My suspicion is that we won't see that at all though, and that's based on last season (and indeed the couple of seasons before that) where nothing much has changed.

I hope I'm wrong though.

So we can look at history as far back as it suits you. Or we can go further and undo your logic. Or we could always look at the reality and see that it's a new season, we're in 6th place after two games, and there 20 more to play. But I guess that's beyond you.

I certainly hope you don't have to manage people in whatever work you do.

"Well yes you did fail to come to work for four days last week and on the fifth day you burnt down the office, but to be fair this is a new week so let's start again."

eye rolling smiley

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:26
Quote:
COYQ_2017
How many points did Exeter put on London Irish at the weekend QK?

How many points did Gloucester put on Exeter last week?

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:32
If John Kingston tried to set fire to something he'd probably mess it up!

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:29
Quote:
talkshowhost86

I certainly hope you don't have to manage people in whatever work you do.

"Well yes you did fail to come to work for four days last week and on the fifth day you burnt down the office, but to be fair this is a new week so let's start again."

eye rolling smiley

I certainly hope you don't have to manage people in whatever you do...

"Well, you're doing well and showing signs of improvement, and I know your contract is for 9 months... but sadly someone else wasn't good enough a few years ago when you worked for them, and I've already decided you'll be abysmal in future, so off you go..."

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:36
This is getting very very silly QK!!!!

 
Re: Kingston in
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:32
Quote:
COYQ_2017
If John Kingston tried to set fire to something he'd probably mess it up!

Next you'll be saying he's conspiring to burn the Stoop down to the ground! Guyfawkesgate!

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:35
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86

I certainly hope you don't have to manage people in whatever work you do.

"Well yes you did fail to come to work for four days last week and on the fifth day you burnt down the office, but to be fair this is a new week so let's start again."

eye rolling smiley

I certainly hope you don't have to manage people in whatever you do...

"Well, you're doing well and showing signs of improvement, and I know your contract is for 9 months... but sadly someone else wasn't good enough a few years ago when you worked for them, and I've already decided you'll be abysmal in future, so off you go..."

Except again that isn't even remotely accurate in relation to anything I've said before is it?

Kingston (and many others in our current setup) were key parts of our coaching setup towards the end of the COS era where we were incredibly ordinary. If you think there has been a marked improvement since those days then I think you're seeing something a lot of others aren't.

Yes we managed to move from 7th to 6th by the skin of our teeth, but if you think that's 'showing signs of improvement' then I'd say your expectations are extremely low (which may actually explain a lot).

And even if you ignore JK and co's role in our decline under COS, I don't understand how you're ignoring the fact that in over a year since JK took over, very little has changed, with that seemingly being the case at the start of this season as well (our first two games have been carbon copies of our home and away performances last year).

I would genuinely be interested to see where you think we've improved under JK, and that's without considering the fact that he was a part of the problem in the first place.

 
Re: Kingston in
akb1 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:59
another pointless JK bashing thread.

Whatever coaching role he has had with Quins anything that has gone wrong appears to be his fault.
Forward coach all his fault and no-one else when things in the team go wrong.
Head coach as above
Director of Rugby as above.

Boring.

 
Re: Kingston in
Cookie (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:10
It actually started off as a pretty positive and well balanced debate until QK decided to go over the top with JK praise. That won't go unchallenged for the foreseeable future.

 
Re: Kingston in
akb1 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:44
Quote:
Cookie
It actually started off as a pretty positive and well balanced debate until QK decided to go over the top with JK praise. That won't go unchallenged for the foreseeable future.

So in your opinion QK's defence of JK is over the top? What about the JK bashing, is that over the top or fair?
I am not a JK fan, but last season we finished higher than the previous 2 seasons under COS, why weren't people calling for COS to be sacked as much as they are for JK? Would it be because he was in charge when we won the Amlin/Premiership/AngloWelsh ? I assume JK had no part in these victories? He is only responsible for the losses?

 
Re: Kingston in
Cookie (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:50
That's been discussed elsewhere - there's a thread dedicated to it which consolidated at least one other.

The point is that this has become a JK bashing thread when it wasn't designed to be. Saturday was a welcome win, although I don't think it really changed much as we won most of our home games last season. But there were green shoots and that's why most people took it for what it was and we started looking towards the next series of games to see what the full story was going to be.

Rightly or wrongly, if you start saying how great a job JK is doing, you're going to get challenged.

 
Re: Kingston in
akb1 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:58
Quote:
Rightly or wrongly, if you start saying how great a job JK is doing, you're going to get challenged.
Not sure I have seen the post saying he is doing a great job.

 
Re: Kingston in
akb1 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:07
moving on - looking forward to a bit of A league tonight.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 17:35
Quote:
talkshowhost86

Except again that isn't even remotely accurate in relation to anything I've said before is it?

Kingston (and many others in our current setup) were key parts of our coaching setup towards the end of the COS era where we were incredibly ordinary. If you think there has been a marked improvement since those days then I think you're seeing something a lot of others aren't.

Yes we managed to move from 7th to 6th by the skin of our teeth, but if you think that's 'showing signs of improvement' then I'd say your expectations are extremely low (which may actually explain a lot).

And even if you ignore JK and co's role in our decline under COS, I don't understand how you're ignoring the fact that in over a year since JK took over, very little has changed, with that seemingly being the case at the start of this season as well (our first two games have been carbon copies of our home and away performances last year).

I would genuinely be interested to see where you think we've improved under JK, and that's without considering the fact that he was a part of the problem in the first place.

This fascinates me, and kind of proves a point.

We improved last year, if you use the measurement of our league placing. Only by one place, but it means we're in the main European competition. In any case, 7th to 6th is an improvement, however upsetting that may be to you.

But you want to go further back the the years of decline prior to that, because JK was a part of it. Yes he was, no denying that. He wasn't leading the ship, but he was a senior officer (excuse the analogy). But what must really irk you is that the same set up was in place when we had our most successful period in the professional era; why don't you want to go back that far? I can only assume it's because it negates your argument.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: judge the guy at the end of this season. All teams will have bad games - look at Tigers for example. There are 22 games in a season and some will throw up unexpected results. But your position after 22 games is what matters. If we have a disastrous season then I'll be in the camp that's asking for change. If we have an improved season then I probably won't.

But last season counts for nothing at this point in time.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 17:36
Quote:
Cookie
It actually started off as a pretty positive and well balanced debate until QK decided to go over the top with JK praise. That won't go unchallenged for the foreseeable future.

"Over the top with JK praise..."

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear. Words fail me.

 
Re: Kingston in
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 20:22
Quote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again: judge the guy at the end of this season. All teams will have bad games - look at Tigers for example.

Don't think JK would be in employment if he were at Tigers. They sacked two DOR's last season despite finishing above us. Personally I'd be in the judge after the season camp, not sure that's worked out too well for Tigers.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 22:13
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86

Except again that isn't even remotely accurate in relation to anything I've said before is it?

Kingston (and many others in our current setup) were key parts of our coaching setup towards the end of the COS era where we were incredibly ordinary. If you think there has been a marked improvement since those days then I think you're seeing something a lot of others aren't.

Yes we managed to move from 7th to 6th by the skin of our teeth, but if you think that's 'showing signs of improvement' then I'd say your expectations are extremely low (which may actually explain a lot).

And even if you ignore JK and co's role in our decline under COS, I don't understand how you're ignoring the fact that in over a year since JK took over, very little has changed, with that seemingly being the case at the start of this season as well (our first two games have been carbon copies of our home and away performances last year).

I would genuinely be interested to see where you think we've improved under JK, and that's without considering the fact that he was a part of the problem in the first place.

This fascinates me, and kind of proves a point.

We improved last year, if you use the measurement of our league placing. Only by one place, but it means we're in the main European competition. In any case, 7th to 6th is an improvement, however upsetting that may be to you.

But you want to go further back the the years of decline prior to that, because JK was a part of it. Yes he was, no denying that. He wasn't leading the ship, but he was a senior officer (excuse the analogy). But what must really irk you is that the same set up was in place when we had our most successful period in the professional era; why don't you want to go back that far? I can only assume it's because it negates your argument.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: judge the guy at the end of this season. All teams will have bad games - look at Tigers for example. There are 22 games in a season and some will throw up unexpected results. But your position after 22 games is what matters. If we have a disastrous season then I'll be in the camp that's asking for change. If we have an improved season then I probably won't.

But last season counts for nothing at this point in time.

I'm happy to go back in time - to the period Kingston got us relegated! You do remember that period as well? 15 years at the club and yet mr (below)average is still here.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 23:05
Quote:
COYQ_2017
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86

Except again that isn't even remotely accurate in relation to anything I've said before is it?

Kingston (and many others in our current setup) were key parts of our coaching setup towards the end of the COS era where we were incredibly ordinary. If you think there has been a marked improvement since those days then I think you're seeing something a lot of others aren't.

Yes we managed to move from 7th to 6th by the skin of our teeth, but if you think that's 'showing signs of improvement' then I'd say your expectations are extremely low (which may actually explain a lot).

And even if you ignore JK and co's role in our decline under COS, I don't understand how you're ignoring the fact that in over a year since JK took over, very little has changed, with that seemingly being the case at the start of this season as well (our first two games have been carbon copies of our home and away performances last year).

I would genuinely be interested to see where you think we've improved under JK, and that's without considering the fact that he was a part of the problem in the first place.

This fascinates me, and kind of proves a point.

We improved last year, if you use the measurement of our league placing. Only by one place, but it means we're in the main European competition. In any case, 7th to 6th is an improvement, however upsetting that may be to you.

But you want to go further back the the years of decline prior to that, because JK was a part of it. Yes he was, no denying that. He wasn't leading the ship, but he was a senior officer (excuse the analogy). But what must really irk you is that the same set up was in place when we had our most successful period in the professional era; why don't you want to go back that far? I can only assume it's because it negates your argument.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: judge the guy at the end of this season. All teams will have bad games - look at Tigers for example. There are 22 games in a season and some will throw up unexpected results. But your position after 22 games is what matters. If we have a disastrous season then I'll be in the camp that's asking for change. If we have an improved season then I probably won't.

But last season counts for nothing at this point in time.

I'm happy to go back in time - to the period Kingston got us relegated! You do remember that period as well? 15 years at the club and yet mr (below)average is still here.

Again, proves my point. If you look at history you look at the good and the bad. But in the context of this season, none of it matters.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 00:24
"Again, proves my point. If you look at history you look at the good and the bad. But in the context of this season, none of it matters"

Don't judge anything until tomorrow then?

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 06:52
Quote:
COYQ_2017
"Again, proves my point. If you look at history you look at the good and the bad. But in the context of this season, none of it matters"
Don't judge anything until tomorrow then?

It's best to leave judgement until after something has happened. Or would you rather judge the future, now?

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 07:51
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86

Except again that isn't even remotely accurate in relation to anything I've said before is it?

Kingston (and many others in our current setup) were key parts of our coaching setup towards the end of the COS era where we were incredibly ordinary. If you think there has been a marked improvement since those days then I think you're seeing something a lot of others aren't.

Yes we managed to move from 7th to 6th by the skin of our teeth, but if you think that's 'showing signs of improvement' then I'd say your expectations are extremely low (which may actually explain a lot).

And even if you ignore JK and co's role in our decline under COS, I don't understand how you're ignoring the fact that in over a year since JK took over, very little has changed, with that seemingly being the case at the start of this season as well (our first two games have been carbon copies of our home and away performances last year).

I would genuinely be interested to see where you think we've improved under JK, and that's without considering the fact that he was a part of the problem in the first place.

This fascinates me, and kind of proves a point.

We improved last year, if you use the measurement of our league placing. Only by one place, but it means we're in the main European competition. In any case, 7th to 6th is an improvement, however upsetting that may be to you.

But you want to go further back the the years of decline prior to that, because JK was a part of it. Yes he was, no denying that. He wasn't leading the ship, but he was a senior officer (excuse the analogy). But what must really irk you is that the same set up was in place when we had our most successful period in the professional era; why don't you want to go back that far? I can only assume it's because it negates your argument.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: judge the guy at the end of this season. All teams will have bad games - look at Tigers for example. There are 22 games in a season and some will throw up unexpected results. But your position after 22 games is what matters. If we have a disastrous season then I'll be in the camp that's asking for change. If we have an improved season then I probably won't.

But last season counts for nothing at this point in time.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying but giving you the benefit of doubt I'll say it all one more time as I agree with others that it's getting boring now.

1. JK was an important part of our title winning side. He deserves enormous credit for that.

2. That was 6 years ago. He doesn't then have enough credit in the bank to be let off for all failings that happen in the next 6 years.

3. We went very quickly downhill after the title win. JK was part of that, but giving him the benefit of the doubt, let's assume it was more to do with COS towards the end when we were absolutely woeful.

4. Therefore, if you're being generous, JK gets a clean slate when he takes over as DOR.

5. We weren't good enough last year. We didn't improve over the course of the season and we played EXACTLY the same style of rugby as we did under COS. We improved our position by one place but anyone who watched any of the season knows that was 1) a very fine margin and 2) more down to Northampton's failings than anything else.

6. You cannot ignore that poor performance last season when considering JK's role as DOR currently. It is frankly ludicrous to do so.

7. And this is a big one as you keep getting a bee in your bonnet about it....If JK turns it around and gets us a few successive wins (i.e. more than 2) then I will be delighted at the progression and will delight in the fact that I was wrong. I support Harlequins. I don't support any 'JK Out' movement. It's insulting that you suggest otherwise.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 08:29
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
COYQ_2017
"Again, proves my point. If you look at history you look at the good and the bad. But in the context of this season, none of it matters"
Don't judge anything until tomorrow then?

It's best to leave judgement until after something has happened. Or would you rather judge the future, now?

Lots of things have happened though - he's been at the club for over 15 years.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 08:39
Quote:
talkshowhost86

5. We weren't good enough last year. We didn't improve over the course of the season and we played EXACTLY the same style of rugby as we did under COS. We improved our position by one place but anyone who watched any of the season knows that was 1) a very fine margin and 2) more down to Northampton's failings than anything else.

6. You cannot ignore that poor performance last season when considering JK's role as DOR currently. It is frankly ludicrous to do so.

7. And this is a big one as you keep getting a bee in your bonnet about it....If JK turns it around and gets us a few successive wins (i.e. more than 2) then I will be delighted at the progression and will delight in the fact that I was wrong. I support Harlequins. I don't support any 'JK Out' movement. It's insulting that you suggest otherwise.

These three points are what I would like to highlight, which you seem to be ignoring.

5) Whether you think we were "good enough" is a moot point; that we improved on the previous season is a fact. Most people in the know explained that there was a great deal of transition - new coaching setup for example. That should now have settled, and JK has made substantial changes to the squad. This is to all intents and purposes a clean-ish slate.

6) See point 5. There's nothing ludicrous about it.

7) In order to get two successive wins, we need two successive games; for fairness, these should be in the same season. People were on JK's back after game 1. We could have routed LI by 50 points, but we still wouldn't have had two successive wins at that point.

Give the guy a break.

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 09:02
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86

5. We weren't good enough last year. We didn't improve over the course of the season and we played EXACTLY the same style of rugby as we did under COS. We improved our position by one place but anyone who watched any of the season knows that was 1) a very fine margin and 2) more down to Northampton's failings than anything else.

6. You cannot ignore that poor performance last season when considering JK's role as DOR currently. It is frankly ludicrous to do so.

7. And this is a big one as you keep getting a bee in your bonnet about it....If JK turns it around and gets us a few successive wins (i.e. more than 2) then I will be delighted at the progression and will delight in the fact that I was wrong. I support Harlequins. I don't support any 'JK Out' movement. It's insulting that you suggest otherwise.

These three points are what I would like to highlight, which you seem to be ignoring.

5) Whether you think we were "good enough" is a moot point; that we improved on the previous season is a fact. Most people in the know explained that there was a great deal of transition - new coaching setup for example. That should now have settled, and JK has made substantial changes to the squad. This is to all intents and purposes a clean-ish slate.

6) See point 5. There's nothing ludicrous about it.

7) In order to get two successive wins, we need two successive games; for fairness, these should be in the same season. People were on JK's back after game 1. We could have routed LI by 50 points, but we still wouldn't have had two successive wins at that point.

Give the guy a break.

It's absolutely not a moot point. We can't measure the progress of the club based on other clubs being a bit rubbish. The only reason we moved up a place last year was because of Northampton's failings, and even then we had to rely on a slightly better defeat than usual away from home to finish above them.

If you think that shows improvement then most of this debate is fairly pointless as you're clearly not looking at the rugby side of it at all.

The one sensible point you did make was around Kingston having a 'transition' and I think that's the only reason why he's still in a job. Because we didn't want him as DOR in the first place he didn't have time to bring in his own people once he was eventually appointed. So to be very charitable we can say that this season is the first where he's had time to put his own players/systems in place.

I think that's countered though by two points:

1. Having been at the club for years and known the players he should have needed far less transition time than someone like Blackadder, who was coming to a new club completely, and who outperformed JK last season.

2. Even if they weren't 'his' players you'd expect him to be able to coach them to improve over the course of the season, and I just don't think we saw that at all.

As I've said elsewhere, the one thing in JK's favour at the moment is that he can say all 'his' players are currently injured, but I really hope that if we continue with this current mediocrity that the board don't buy that argument.

 
Re: Kingston in
COYQ_2017 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 09:51
The "my players are injured" argument is right up JKs street I'm afraid and I'm sure he will use it sooner rather than later. This will of course ignore all of his other fallings.

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 10:51
Quote:
COYQ_2017
The "my players are injured" argument is right up JKs street I'm afraid and I'm sure he will use it sooner rather than later. This will of course ignore all of his other fallings.

Well he can't be criticised for something he hasn't done yet.

I'll be frustrated if he blames things on injuries (and this is assuming we carry on with the current level of performance) but he hasn't yet so think you need to hold fire on that one.

 
Re: Kingston in
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 10:58
I can't agree with your points here, Talkshow:

"We went very quickly downhill after the title win"...

We reached semis for two years in a row after we won title and the youngsters, led by Wallace won the Anglo-Welsh/LV cup. We certainly had two fallow years after that (14/15 & 15/16) but they were followed by a cup final (2016) in France - hardly "very quickly downhill" - that's hyperbole.

Qualifying for Champions Cup is an improvement and saying we only got that because Saints were worse than us is a bit trite - winning the league depends on finishing above the rest because you're better than them. We were better than Saints - they would have deserved 6th place if they had prevented us, at their home ground, from gaining a losing BP - they didn't and we played a good game away from home.

A "poor" performance? Yes, we played poorly on a number of occasions, but did well enough to finish 6th - (just above) average - top half of table.

I am not convinced JK is the best DOR around, but he's not the worst either.

And as for your comment that QK "suggested" you were in the JK out camp - he does not say or imply that in this thread: he challenges your views on his suitability for the role, but he doesn't once assert that you are part of the "JK Out" camp, so you shouldn't feel insulted.

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:19
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
I can't agree with your points here, Talkshow:
"We went very quickly downhill after the title win"...

We reached semis for two years in a row after we won title and the youngsters, led by Wallace won the Anglo-Welsh/LV cup. We certainly had two fallow years after that (14/15 & 15/16) but they were followed by a cup final (2016) in France - hardly "very quickly downhill" - that's hyperbole.

Qualifying for Champions Cup is an improvement and saying we only got that because Saints were worse than us is a bit trite - winning the league depends on finishing above the rest because you're better than them. We were better than Saints - they would have deserved 6th place if they had prevented us, at their home ground, from gaining a losing BP - they didn't and we played a good game away from home.

A "poor" performance? Yes, we played poorly on a number of occasions, but did well enough to finish 6th - (just above) average - top half of table.

I am not convinced JK is the best DOR around, but he's not the worst either.

And as for your comment that QK "suggested" you were in the JK out camp - he does not say or imply that in this thread: he challenges your views on his suitability for the role, but he doesn't once assert that you are part of the "JK Out" camp, so you shouldn't feel insulted.

Personally I think going from title winners to a very limp 7th in 4-5 years is a fairly fast decline, but you are right to point out the successes we had in that period as well. But the point remains that we are now many miles away from the successes of 2011/2012.

As I said to QK, yes we came 6th but it didn't come from any improvement in the way we played. We in fact scored 3 fewer points last season than in the final year of COS' reign, and in terms of wins, the difference was that we converted one draw into a win. Whichever way you slice it, it is hard to see it as any sort of improvement from Quins.

In terms of performance I think the bonus points are very telling. When we lost we lost big, and when we won we scraped through. The performances were very similar to 2015/16 when most people agreed we were not playing well. Yes there were some great performances in amongst that, but nowhere near enough.

And on the final point the thing I object to is QK saying that people want JK out 'whatever he does' which is just patent nonsense. It suggests that anyone who doesn't think JK is the right man for the job would rather be right than have Quins do well. And I can only speak for myself on that, but that simply isn't the case.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:29
Quote:
talkshowhost86

And on the final point the thing I object to is QK saying that people want JK out 'whatever he does' which is just patent nonsense.

No it's not. There are people who want him out, regardless of results. If you read this board you will see that. Look at the comment immediately following yours - blaming JK for something he hasn't done but will "most likely" do.

Quote:
It's absolutely not a moot point. We can't measure the progress of the club based on other clubs being a bit rubbish.

It is a moot point. Whether or not you think other teams are rubbish is objective; we are measured by their (and our) final position in the league. We improved, we were better than Saints (as Bolly points out).

Quote:
Because we didn't want him as DOR in the first place

That's very grand of you. Not sure who "we" refers to, but I doubt you're on the Board of Directors so it's irrelevant.

Quote:
...you're clearly not looking at the rugby side of it at all.

Do you want success? Or beautiful rugby with possible poor results? The former is measurable. the latter is perception, apart from the results.

Quote:
1. Having been at the club for years and known the players he should have needed far less transition time than someone like Blackadder, who was coming to a new club completely, and who outperformed JK last season.

Knowing the players doesn't equate to choosing them, or to them being better than other players. I fail to see the comparison.

Quote:
2. Even if they weren't 'his' players you'd expect him to be able to coach them to improve over the course of the season, and I just don't think we saw that at all.

Except JK isn't the coach. He's the DOR.

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:40
*Sigh*

1. I don't actually think that's the case, but if it is that doesn't mean you can lump everyone in the same bucket.

2. If you're going by the table rather than anything else, then we finished three points lower than in the previous season. Scraping through into 6th does not constitute an improvement.

3. Childish response. I didn't say I was in the decision making process. The board clearly didn't have him as first choice.

4. I would like good rugby that leads to results. Not the same rugby that arguably leads to worse results (three points fewer than the previous season).

5. This point is daft. Whichever way you look at it Blackadder did better in his 'transition' season than Kingston, and Kingston had much less to learn about the club, the players and the league. It's a very easy comparison to make.

6. Jesus Christ.

 
Re: Kingston in
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:57
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:59
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

You've clearly got even lower standards than QK (Sm125)

I do like their phone box based shenanigans though.

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 14:01
Quote:
talkshowhost86
*Sigh*
1. I don't actually think that's the case, but if it is that doesn't mean you can lump everyone in the same bucket.

2. If you're going by the table rather than anything else, then we finished three points lower than in the previous season. Scraping through into 6th does not constitute an improvement.

3. Childish response. I didn't say I was in the decision making process. The board clearly didn't have him as first choice.

4. I would like good rugby that leads to results. Not the same rugby that arguably leads to worse results (three points fewer than the previous season).

5. This point is daft. Whichever way you look at it Blackadder did better in his 'transition' season than Kingston, and Kingston had much less to learn about the club, the players and the league. It's a very easy comparison to make.

6. Jesus Christ.

1. As has been pointed out to you already, I have never lumped everyone in the same bracket. The key word I've used is "some", not "all".

2. The table position is based upon points compared to other teams that season; it's not a comparison against the previous season.

3. You have proof of this?

4. See point 2.

5. Some would say Blackadder had better players. Have you factored that in?

6. Don't know him - is he a new signing?

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 14:02
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

 
Re: Kingston in
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 14:41
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
*Sigh*
1. I don't actually think that's the case, but if it is that doesn't mean you can lump everyone in the same bucket.

2. If you're going by the table rather than anything else, then we finished three points lower than in the previous season. Scraping through into 6th does not constitute an improvement.

3. Childish response. I didn't say I was in the decision making process. The board clearly didn't have him as first choice.

4. I would like good rugby that leads to results. Not the same rugby that arguably leads to worse results (three points fewer than the previous season).

5. This point is daft. Whichever way you look at it Blackadder did better in his 'transition' season than Kingston, and Kingston had much less to learn about the club, the players and the league. It's a very easy comparison to make.

6. Jesus Christ.

1. As has been pointed out to you already, I have never lumped everyone in the same bracket. The key word I've used is "some", not "all".

2. The table position is based upon points compared to other teams that season; it's not a comparison against the previous season.

3. You have proof of this?

4. See point 2.

5. Some would say Blackadder had better players. Have you factored that in?

6. Don't know him - is he a new signing?

For the sake of everyone else's sanity I give up, particularly when you're throwing around phrases such as 'do you have proof' in the same post you then launch a factless position about Bath.

I'll just finish by saying I hope you're right about us improving at some point.

I've just seen absolutely nothing from the current coaching set up to suggest you will be right until significant changes are made throughout our coaching set up.

Until that happens I'll continue to support the club more in hope than expectation, as has now been the case for a worryingly long period of time.

 
Re: Kingston in
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 15:38
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 17:54
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal

#stroppydouche

 
Re: Kingston in
Dave L (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 18:13
I think this season has to be the one he's judged on.

I'm in the neither particularly pro nor anti camp. I was disappointed when he was appointed and felt that it continued the overly inward and possibly naive outlook that the club leadership seem to have. That's just my impression.

Last season turned out OK with some better than expected results and some plain shocking games. I don't buy we only came 6th because Northampton were poor, you could argue that thesis of x only happened because of y when x has no real influence on y for ever.

If the basics are poor throughout the season and we play with the same naivety on display at points last year then I will be disappointed and would support a change in direction. An improvement on last year both in terms of results and manner of playing and I'll be happy for them to continue in post.

 
Re: Kingston in
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 18:35
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal

#stroppydouche

I think stroppydouche closed down, there's an artisan coffee house there now.

 
Re: Kingston in
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 20:00
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal

#stroppydouche


I think stroppydouche closed down, there's an artisan coffee house there now.

#ihatelattes



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Kingston in
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 20:14
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal

#stroppydouche


I think stroppydouche closed down, there's an artisan coffee house there now.

#ihatelattes

#imnotkeenonlettuce

 
Re: Kingston in
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 20:27
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Scaramouche
I like Kingston. Especially Bentalls.

It doesn't matter if it's better than the other shops. Has it improved sufficiently in the eyes of a person who uses some bizarre metric? And why did it not improve in the same way that John Lewis in High Wycombe did?

#doonepal

#stroppydouche



I think stroppydouche closed down, there's an artisan coffee house there now.

#ihatelattes

#imnotkeenonlettuce

#iHATE#tags



Illegitimi non carborundum

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