I know some people will shut this down in flames. And yes, it was an outstanding result today.

However... for me, he should have gone before today. Summer if I'm being frank.

I only registered today but I'm a long time supporter, and honestly feel he shouldn't be in charge.

Today just shows what the team is capable of. You can say he built it. You can say he inherited it. What you can't say is that today's result was what you expected.

To be fair, even if we were world beaters I'd not predict us to beat wasps away but that's why I wanted to share my feelings now. One swallow does not a summer make etc.

For me, I genuinely don't see us being a top four team come the end of the season and I put it down to the coaching staff.

This was a one off performance, similar to beating Sarries last season. I've watched with interest the comments about us finishing sixth as opposed to seventh last year. That was our doing, not Saints.

But we shouldn't view sixth as success.

We may finish fifth- or even higher this season. This will be progress. But I don't want progress. I want success. Actual success. Like silverware. Does anyone honestly think we are in the running for silverware this year?

For me, Kingston isn't going to deliver that. I still think his appointment smacks of a lack of ambition and the club really should have aimed higher.

Nonetheless- a fantastic result today which I'm celebrating on the way home!
#coyq

We've just beaten the runners up from last season, a team who haven't lost at home since dec 2015. Not bad i say.The last two performances show signs of a team that could push on this season. Let see where we are at before the Champions Cup games. 3 more games. 2 wins from them and its looking good

I wasnt a fan of the appointment initially too but victories like this helps things

So you don't want progress you just want us to win the league or Euro cup this season. Righto.

Success is winnning silverware.

JK needs this season to be judged on. He has re-signed players and brought players in. There his players now.

Quins are currently 5th in the AP and only separated from the leaders by bonus points. By my view of the season roadmap, that's tracking for 4th. Quins have done it the hard way, starting with a bad 40 minutes against Irish and then securing a TBP and two wins, one away against the early season leader.

It's still very early in the season to pass judgement on anything, but to dismiss today's result as a one-off is ludicrous until we see what happens afterwards.

I get that a number of fans are disappointed that the club chose John Kingston as DoR. He isn't an exciting big name signing and familiarity breeds contempt. But I also wonder who it is that Quins are supposed to recruit in his place? I don't see many constructive arguments that we should have recruited [insert name of exciting, available big name coach here]. Unless there's someone credible who we could actually have recruited (or better, recruit), it's all just a bit pointless, isn't it?

Find your post a bit weird really - your criticisms are what many of us were saying last year so it feels a bit late or out of date.

Plenty not inspired by JK appointment and will argue he was there while OShea was letting us slide badly so was part of the problem.

Bad first half of last year salvaged by the end and JK argues he inherited a side with problems and needed time to make it his own. He also said he changed the way we play last year and it took time for players to work it out.

So as inspired or not as you may be - this is the season to judge where Kingston's Quins are. But it's only 3 games in and we're a couple of bonus points off the top.

I'm no fan of JK, but to choose this moment to state the case to remove him is rather churlish. I'm often thought of as his biggest critic, but you have to give credit where it's due and he and the coaching staff and players should be applauded for yesterday's performance.

Quote:

COYQ_2017
Success is winnning silverware.

So, who's been successful this season? By your standards, we're as successful as anyone else this season...

Quote:

Cookie
I'm often thought of as his biggest critic

Not at all. See above...

If we'd been slaughtered by Wasps yesterday — as, frankly I expected — then you'd be right to say enough is enough. The appalling performance against Irish plus that would have been the final straw. But let's see what happens on Saturday. If the team can play this way consistently and especially with front line players still to come in to the team, there is lots of reason for optimism.

I do not think all the blame can be leveled at Kingston. This is a guy who as forwards coach developed JJ, Joe, Sink.

He cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

As has been said one swallow does not make a summer and last season the games V Sarries and Wasps at home were outstanding. I also some shocking rubbish last season and the game this year against LI was as bad a Quins performance I have ever seen. The game v Glos was also poor albeit we scored some good tries but Glos in spite of the win V exe looked utterly rubbish. They will not trouble to top 6 this year.

To me we have a 1st 15 that can compete with any team in the league but we also have a squad that is weak. Ward is a poor hooker and no flanker. A 2nd row who could not get into Bristol side last season. Winston Stanley? Never yet seen him do anything creative. Ross Chisholm would not get into the squad at Bath Sarries Exe. and I could go on. As players move on they are replaced with those of lesser quality - Nev the classic example what was the point of signing Jackson the worst 10 I have seen in the prem and a total liabilty, (I was told by the parents of a regular first choice player that when he saw RJ on the team sheet he knew we would lose).

To me it seem clear that the club does just not have the money to compete and have a top quality squad. For that I cannot blame JK.

The result and the performance yesterday buys JK and co a bit more time in my eyes, and if we win at home to Leicester as well then we can perhaps really start to consider whether things have turned around.

I didn't think he did nearly well enough last season with a very talented squad, and the opening game of this season had people (including myself) legitimately worried about what this season may bring.

Two wins later though and it looks a lot rosier. Not enough yet for me to be convinced JK is the best option for us long term, but certainly enough to give him more time to show that the London Irish game was the exception, rather than the Wasps game.

I'm as thrilled as anyone that we beat Wasps and i think it was a big team performance, and i include JK and all the coaching staff in that. Well done to them all!

I'll be even happier if we can maintain a similar level of focus and intensity for a decent run through the season...unrealistic to expect that in every game but would be nice to see it more often at least.

Yesterday really reminded me how limp we've been for a couple of years and its a great feeling to see us looking like we're prepared to fight for an away win again.

But what doesn't really compute for me is that a couple of times a season we see these big performances from Quins (vs Saracens last 2 yrs for example) where they look absolutely 'on it' and determined to win. That then just throws into sharp contrast all the matches (esp. Away) where they are just coasting along and going through the motions.

Why can the squad not get fired up for more of the season? Do the senior players just want to impress Eddie? (Can we get him along more often?!?) Is it a coincidence that Clifford and Yarde had their best games in ages when they're both on the margins of the England setup with the boss watching?

Nice to have some positives to discuss for once, and as far as JK goes its the right direction. But if we now have more of the 'can't be bothered' performances you'd have to question if Quins are playing for their DOR or for Eddie.

If we can beat Tigers and take something from the Saints game it will go a long way to showing we've finally turned the corner...

Agree with TSH86. If the Wasps performance is the norm and the Irish game an aberration, then all good.

But I disagree with Fanski about the quality of the squad. I think it's better than the performances of the past couple of seasons suggest. Ward is indeed no flanker, but him playing there was because of Wallace's injury and Luamanu not being 100%, meaning Clifford played 8. It would be a massive oversight not to get another out and out 7 in for the season.

Stanley is squad fodder and nothing more. Chisholm has much more to offer than you suggest.

And as for Jackson, he was a JK signing............

Do not jump on this bait, its a new poster, this is his first ever post, just looking for his reaction. Only thing I am unsure of with JK is his interview style, he is clearly not comfortable in front of the camera but the big players would not be extending their contracts if they do jot have faith in JK.

Yes first game was terrible for Quins but they looked better against Gloucester and great against Wasps. Win this Saturday and we will be on a good footing for the season.

Yes, very odd for a "long time supporter" to feel the need to sign up to the message board and the first thing they want to do after a historic win over Wasps is post a message calling for the removal of the DOR. I suspect we probably know A-Quin more than we think.

Quote:

DazzaS
Win this Saturday and we will be on a good footing for the season.

I think one thing that we can take from rounds 1 to 3 is to expect the unpredictable. Saints being thumped by Sarries, then trouncing Bath, who defeated Sarries without letting them get a LBP is a good example.

I don't think we'll have a clear picture until well after half way through the season. There could be many more upsets to come, I just hope that we are on the positive side of them.

Given our incredibly poor away results last season it must have been ages since we won three in a row In the premiership.

LOL

just LOL

in fact ROFL

Not really.

Surely better than saying "now I think JK should stay" and then if we lose to Tigers next week "he should go now".

If we keep this up then great, but we've seen Quins turn over Sarries then fall back again twice in consecutive seasons. No doubt we have the players and the belief to win huge games against all expectations - therefore it's the coaches' job to harness that and make them win the easier games too. Up to now we haven't seen that from this coaching team.

I'll happily eat humble pie when we've won 8/11, not won one we expected to lose and lost another we expected to win. Not sure anyone doubted we had it in us to beat Wasps, now we need to kick on.

I hear everything you're saying there, RR. However I'm pinning my hopes on
1. It was an away win and we've finally got that monkey off our back.
2. It was against Wasps, unbeaten since Dec 2015 at home.
3. We showed the spirit we're going to need against Tigers next week.
4. it must be heck of a boost to our morale to have done this.

I agree, we could just disappear into our shells and meekly cough up next weeks game but I'm really hoping we don't! Also, our players have been pretty consistent the last two games. Last season, home games were what got us to 6th place. If we can hold those and win some away, then we're in the play offs! (Indicates hopeless optimism!)

Fantastic result no doubt, but my view hasn't changed about JK. But what I found really odd for a top flight team was how many times IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES our No 15 played 9, even Marler did I think a couple of times, and also how Smith was kept out of being first receiver early on......Yarde/Brown both DESPERATE to do something early to ignite the team. All very strange and if my Sons team started like that we (the parents) would be asking what is going on??????

No one can take the premiership win away from Conor, with JK as head coach, but since then the club development has Been atrocious. J K is now applying his thinking, and recruiting his team. It is too early to criticise. We could have the next Rob Baxter or Dai Jones here for all we know. We still do not have a premiership level hooker, second row, open flanker or no 8, and possibly fly half (though obviously catrikalis and smith are hopefully going to prove to be ). Give the bloke a chance.

RQ, the facts don't bear you out. We have three hookers who have been Saxons or better, one International captain in the second row, our primary openside is out with a serious injury and our two best No 8s (one of whom.has international caps at 7 and 8, and both of whom have captained England at U20) are just returned from and still returning from injury.

It's a bit harsh to dismiss that lot as "not Premiership quality". Buchanan, Merrick, Clifford and Smith have all been namechecked or capped by Eddie Jones, who's not a bad judge of players.

What we haven't had is a run of games with a fully fit bunch of players. All three hookers, all our locks, all our back rows (including both Robshaws), Swiel and Lang have had fairly long injury periods, Catrakilis has lasted all of half a game, and Smith has played a grand total of three games in his senior career.

We can't really judge until we've seen them play together a bunch of times.

Quote:

Harleys Evil Step Mum
Fantastic result no doubt, but my view hasn't changed about JK. But what I found really odd for a top flight team was how many times IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES our No 15 played 9, even Marler did I think a couple of times, and also how Smith was kept out of being first receiver early on......Yarde/Brown both DESPERATE to do something early to ignite the team. All very strange and if my Sons team started like that we (the parents) would be asking what is going on??????

Once by Brown and once by Marler by my count, but let`s not be picky.

Quote:

RingwoodQuin
No one can take the premiership win away from Conor, with JK as head coach, but since then the club development has Been atrocious. J K is now applying his thinking, and recruiting his team. It is too early to criticise. We could have the next Rob Baxter or Dai Jones here for all we know. We still do not have a premiership level hooker, second row, open flanker or no 8, and possibly fly half (though obviously catrikalis and smith are hopefully going to prove to be ). Give the bloke a chance.

Buchanan, Clifford, Wallace, Horwill, Merrick, Catrakalis, Bothma, Smith, to name just a few would be a bit miffed to be rated as "not premiership level" Elia Elia is only 21 and already starting at hooker for Samoa so reckon he'd disagree as well.

I think "give them a chance" may also apply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/09/2017 00:54 by blucherquin.

Sorry (and I mean it, I really am sorry), but I agree with A-Quin.

Kingston simply isn't up to the job. That posters to this board were making the same point a year ago doesn't invalidate it now. It makes it all the more shocking that he's still there. We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.

Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

After the two opening matches and (crucially, in my view) with Eddie Jones watching, the squad finally looked like they were up for it on Sunday. Yarde's hunger in defence for that try-saving (and thus match-winning) tackle summed it up perfectly. The guys want to play for Eddie, not for JK. A proper DoR would have them playing like that three games out of four, not one game in three. That's the difference.

And also this ...

Quote:

Franski
As players move on they are replaced with those of lesser quality

... which is clearly also true for DoRs.

Quote:

Franksi
To me it seem clear that the club does just not have the money to compete and have a top quality squad. For that I cannot blame JK.

... I don't blame him for taking the job any more than I blamed Lancaster for taking the England job, but that's not the point. These men should never have been appointed and we only stand a chance of winning things with someone else at the helm.

Slowly but surely we are becoming accustomed to mid-table nothingness and the present DoR is the perfect symbol for what's happening, as well as being symptom/cause. It's simply embarrassing.

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.
Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

There is a saying that you're only as good as your last game. To describe the Wasps win as one of "mediocrity" is a little... let's say "imbecilic".

Nonetheless, clearly you are extremely concerned with how a coach looks and sounds. May I therefore suggest we recruit Pierre Trudeau? He seems to be the poster boy that everyone admires these days. Or how about Jessica Ennis-Hill? Looks great and I'm happy to listen to her all day.

Personally, I am more concerned with how we perform in the league. And if the current standards are maintained and we keep winning, I don't care if JK turns up in a tutu and speaks like Miss Piggy.

Get a grip man.

Who are these "supporters" who pile in immediately after a historic win to stick the knife in? Is it "bring a troll to the message board day"?

Quote:

Quinky Kin

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.
Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

May I therefore suggest we recruit Pierre Trudeau? He seems to be the poster boy that everyone admires these days.

A poster boy from the grave? That's quite something. I wonder what Justin makes of it all.

Quote:

Quinky Kin

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.
Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

There is a saying that you're only as good as your last game. To describe the Wasps win as one of "mediocrity" is a little... let's say "imbecilic".

Nonetheless, clearly you are extremely concerned with how a coach looks and sounds. May I therefore suggest we recruit Pierre Trudeau? He seems to be the poster boy that everyone admires these days. Or how about Jessica Ennis-Hill? Looks great and I'm happy to listen to her all day.

Personally, I am more concerned with how we perform in the league. And if the current standards are maintained and we keep winning, I don't care if JK turns up in a tutu and speaks like Miss Piggy.

Get a grip man.

The 'only as good as your last game' mantra is nonsense, but I agree that it's odd how fixated people seem to get on JK's appearance and demeanor.

To start with we have very little idea how he talks to the players, and whilst he doesn't sound particularly inspiring when interviewed, that doesn't mean he can't inspire the players.

It's actually a bit childish to focus on his appearance as a criticism of how he manages Quins.

Having said that I think the tutu would be a step too far.

Quote:

Cookie

Quote:

Quinky Kin

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.
Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

May I therefore suggest we recruit Pierre Trudeau? He seems to be the poster boy that everyone admires these days.

A poster boy from the grave? That's quite something. I wonder what Justin makes of it all.

Silly me! That's the chap! Not that keen on him personally, but ladies do seem to swoon a bit.

Quote:

Quinky Kin

Quote:

Cookie

Quote:

Quinky Kin

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity.
Look at the man, listen to him. He simply isn't a DoR worthy of Quins. Is it a lack of imagination or courage on the part of the powers that be, or is it that they cannot afford better?

May I therefore suggest we recruit Pierre Trudeau? He seems to be the poster boy that everyone admires these days.

A poster boy from the grave? That's quite something. I wonder what Justin makes of it all.

Silly me! That's the chap! Not that keen on him personally, but ladies do seem to swoon a bit.

Not just the girls!

You are the Donald, £5 etc.

Well if the players were just playing for Eddie JK deserves praise for ensuring he is at as many of our games as possible.

He might have a betamax player at home too of course....

---

If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

Quote:

Bedfordshire Boy

Quote:

Harleys Evil Step Mum
Fantastic result no doubt, but my view hasn't changed about JK. But what I found really odd for a top flight team was how many times IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES our No 15 played 9, even Marler did I think a couple of times, and also how Smith was kept out of being first receiver early on......Yarde/Brown both DESPERATE to do something early to ignite the team. All very strange and if my Sons team started like that we (the parents) would be asking what is going on??????

Once by Brown and once by Marler by my count, but let`s not be picky.

The 10 not always being first receiver is pretty common at professional level. Look how often NZ use someone like Retallick to be a real carrying threat who's also capable of distributing.

Danny can be a little slow to the ruck at times but if other players are capable of keeping the ball moving then great. Mike Catt always coached players to do that even when he was playing.

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O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

I remember Healey citing our frequent use of Robshaw as First Receiver as one of our strengths. His work as that link allowed faster players like NEv to find & exploit the larger gaps further out in the defence to greater effect.

Pretty sure Horwill wasn't playing for Eddie......

Quote:

MrOther
We've become inured to the unacceptable fact of our own mediocrity...These men should never have been appointed and we only stand a chance of winning things with someone else at the helm.

Slowly but surely we are becoming accustomed to mid-table nothingness and the present DoR is the perfect symbol for what's happening, as well as being symptom/cause. It's simply embarrassing.

Edit - I know what I wanted to say, but it hasn't come out right, so I'll go away and think again...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/09/2017 17:37 by Bolly-Quin.

Consider yourself well and truly ridiculed!

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If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

I agree - and have said last year - that Jk comes across rather flat in tv interviews. Doesn't mean that's what he's like with the players. It might be the same, might not - we'll never know. CoS always sounded inspiring even when we were dross - so not sure what you can conclude. He sounds great talking up Italy, who haven't improved either yet..

As to how anyone looks - I think most people grow out of making those judgments when they're at school.

Well, a lot of our senior players don't have a lot of time left. They seem to have believed/fallen for JK's speeches about winning silverware. If you listen to JK talking at a QUINSSA evening, it's obvious he has a clear idea of where he wants to take the club.

Last season, I think he was guilty of trying to change too much too soon, but what can you do with a team that has fallen so far behind? Yes, the "Harlequins Way" that COS espoused was great theatrical rugby, but when it wasn't working we had no plan B to fall back on. And the efforts to graft a plan B were hampered by our senior players, who were used to playing plan A and not as flexible to change.

JK has hinted that some of COS's buys were a bit bargain basement, they were cheap but they didn't really fit into the Harlequins ethos or work ethic (e.g. PDJ was a panic buy, I know, but in the end we'd have been better keeping the money - if PDJ has a work ethic it's about maximising profit for PDJ for as little work as possible!).

As I see it, last year JK had to put up with what he was given. He inherited a team that was well behind the current premiership thinking as regards tactics, both attack and defence. The coaches had patchy success at turning this around. Sure, we had great days, but our away record killed us.

Now we're starting to see the team JK wants. Agreed it won't be really his until at least next year when he can drop another tranche of COS's signings, but I can't wait that long. This season he has to demonstrate improvement. I don't want silverware (yes, I do!) but I want improvement. It may not be improvement in our placing (but I'd like it to be!) but it had better be improved performance away and the same dogged defence at home.

If I get that I'll be happy that next season is really going to be ours!

I'll be happy if we perform to the level we did on sunday for the rest of the season.

DOK! That's the best summing up I've read
Spot on

There are only 2 (3) trophies to win. So if you are judging JK on winning a comp, then the odds are stacked against.
I'd rather we played a certain way, were competitive in all aspects, showed improvement and developed - let the winning take care of itself.

That's what Docs saying isn't it, yep we all want silverware,but realistically as long as we can show a marked improvement in the areas that have been lacking, I'm sure most of the realistic people will be happy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/09/2017 20:47 by SiBolton.

Quote:

SiBolton
DOK! That's the best summing up I've read
Spot on

+1

If I have understood JK's interview after the Wasps game , he said that they had targeted Wasps weaknesses which would indicate to me that the strategy the coaches used had worked.
After six or so games we can see whether this strategy is successfull or not but to keep calling for somebody's head while improving performance seems shortsighted. If we have lost four of the first six then start moaning.

If it is just a question of money how do you explain the Chiefs success and Newcastle steady rise with no stars.We field 8/9/10 internationals on average.More than any else incl Sarries.Lack of quality players is not the issue

More than Sarries? How'd you work that one out? Their squad is packed with internationals. From the opening game, they had:

Goode, Maitland, Taylor, Barritt, Lozowski, Wigglesworth, Brits, Koch, Day, Kruis, Itoje, Burger, Figallo, Isiekwe, Bosch, Wyles

as capped internationals in their 23. And that was them without a few of their Lions (so no Mako, no Farrell, no Billy, no Jamie George, no Liam Williams) and guys like Will Skelton, and Tolofua


Compared to us against Wasps:

Brown, Yarde, Roberts, Care, Marler, Sinckler, Horwill, Robshaw, Clifford, Collier

in our 23, and really only missing Visser, Saili, & Joe Gray as internationals. I refuse to accept the existence of Winston Stanley anyway.

Our squad's pretty thin on quality compared to Sarries and I can't believe we regularly field more internationals. Even given their ability to rotate and their loss of players to callups, the guys replacing them are usually internationals in their own right.

As for Newcastle, they rose to the heady heights of, um, 8th last season and while they're 4th right now it's only been 3 matches. Newcastle also did bring in a fair few players under Deano. There's been loads of changes in that squad.

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O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

Chiefs are an interesting one, they have an awesome academy and the pick of the South West. Yes, they've spent some money on locks and wings but they've got a very strong squad despite lacking the same international stardust as Sarries. I think they have the best academy AND the best scouts / signing policy in the league. We don't do as well as they do, that's for sure.

Here's the thing, though - they have quality players and they rarely lose them to callups. Much like us when we won the league.

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O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

Triple post combo! Turns out it's easy-ish to find the numbers of internationals vs uncapped in each squad on Wikipedia now.

Quins
Senior squad size: 41
Capped: 18
Tier 1 caps: 14


Sarries
Senior squad size: 40
Capped: 24
Tier 1: 22

Newcastle
Senior squad size: 49
Capped: 20
Tier 1: 10

Exeter
Senior squad size: 59 (!! - seriously, this apparently doesn't include academy players)
Capped: 18
Tier 1: 17

It's Wikipedia, so it may be out by a few. Found it interesting anyway.

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O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

Those are very interesting numbers, although I'd contend that counting wigglesworth as a capped player on the same level as Mike Brown is a little unbalanced. Surely it's the quality of the players right now which is important here. Current tier one internationals/squad members would be the pertinent numbers.

Quote:

RodneyRegis
Those are very interesting numbers, although I'd contend that counting wigglesworth as a capped player on the same level as Mike Brown is a little unbalanced. Surely it's the quality of the players right now which is important here. Current tier one internationals/squad members would be the pertinent numbers.

The trouble with that is that it throws up all sorts of questions about where to draw the line. To give a few examples:

Alex Goode is at his playing peak, but he's out of international favour. Does he count?
Isiekwe and Collier both have one or two caps, but are at different stages of their careers and the likelihood of future caps is probably quite different. Do they both count, or neither?
Buchanan and Marchant were named in the summer tour squad but withdrew through injury. Do we count them?
Nick Evans wasn't a current International from the moment he joined us - but he was still one of the top 3 global fly halves. At what point did he stop being international class?
Robshaw and Brown got early caps, and then nothing for years. What was their status in the wilderness years?
The end of Robshaw's international career is predicted with every new series. If it does happen sooner rather than later, does that make him any less valuable for Quins?
Easter wasn't a current international from 2011 to 2015. But for a decent chunk of that he was the form No 8 in the AP.

You could even argue that the guys out of favour or with a couple of caps are more valuable to a team than current regular internationals. Sarries probably wouldn't swap Goode, available all year, for Brown, missing for the AIs and 6N.

Also agree with DOK's summary. I think we were well within our rights to voice anger after the Irish game and I was happy to take issue with those who didn't think we had that right.

But, to be fair, the Glos performance was better and Wasps was better still. Clearly there has been improvement.

If that continues with a solid win on Saturday, it would be churlish not to accept that JK has earned some trust and perhaps he can turn it around.

Don't really buy the injuries argument, though. Everybody has them. Some worse (just look at Wasps' new announcements). And of our key injuries, Catrikilis has been covered by a very impressive Smith, Saili by a rejuvenated Roberts and the consistent Marchant and I'm not sure Bothma would be ahead of Luamanu (and definitely not until he'd proved himself).

So, yes, we're missing a bit of depth, but our starting XV is strong enough, as Sunday proved.

Quote:

SiBolton
DOK! That's the best summing up I've read
Spot on

+ (another) 1

Quote:

Nev's Left Boot
There are only 2 (3) trophies to win. So if you are judging JK on winning a comp, then the odds are stacked against.
I'd rather we played a certain way, were competitive in all aspects, showed improvement and developed - let the winning take care of itself.

Agree with this. If we judge on silverware alone then most clubs would be deemed failures as there isn't much silverware to go around.

The complaint from the less dogmatic of JK-doubters has been that since he's taken over we haven't played a certain way, we haven't been competitive in many aspects, haven't shown much improvement and haven't developed at all.

Sunday was the first time I'd seen a different Quins since JK took over. Yes we've seen decent performances but they were the odd spectacular effort we used to see under COS' decline, rather than a sign of anything changing.

Sunday was a completely different performance from Quins and if that's the direction we're moving in then I'll be delighted.

For me the London Irish (and to a lesser extent the Gloucester) performances suggest we are still going to be inconsistent this year, but let's see what happens in the next couple of games.

The really frustrating thing is that all of the injuries mean that we aren't getting to see what impact JK's attempted personnel changes will have, but if we do revert to our old ways I hope this isn't used as an excuse too much.

Big game on Saturday.

I agree with most of that. The performance this weekend was better, I thought we were lucky against Glos, but let's see how we get on this weekend against Tiggers before we go getting ahead of ourselves. The jury is still very much out on JK as far as I'm concerned.

TS86: if our "old" players can continue to play like this (as they used to) then I am sure we can wait for the newcomers to slot in when fit...

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Bolly-Quin
TS86: if our "old" players can continue to play like this (as they used to) then I am sure we can wait for the newcomers to slot in when fit...

If the 'old' players play like they did against Wasps then quite frankly there's little need for the newcomers!

However if the same players revert to the London Irish performance then you'd potentially want a new XV entirely.

Unfortunately that's how erratic we've been in the last couple of years, and more than anything I'd just like a bit of consistency (to clarify...being consistently good!)

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poorfour

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RodneyRegis
Those are very interesting numbers, although I'd contend that counting wigglesworth as a capped player on the same level as Mike Brown is a little unbalanced. Surely it's the quality of the players right now which is important here. Current tier one internationals/squad members would be the pertinent numbers.

The trouble with that is that it throws up all sorts of questions about where to draw the line. To give a few examples:

Alex Goode is at his playing peak, but he's out of international favour. Does he count?
Isiekwe and Collier both have one or two caps, but are at different stages of their careers and the likelihood of future caps is probably quite different. Do they both count, or neither?
Buchanan and Marchant were named in the summer tour squad but withdrew through injury. Do we count them?
Nick Evans wasn't a current International from the moment he joined us - but he was still one of the top 3 global fly halves. At what point did he stop being international class?
Robshaw and Brown got early caps, and then nothing for years. What was their status in the wilderness years?
The end of Robshaw's international career is predicted with every new series. If it does happen sooner rather than later, does that make him any less valuable for Quins?
Easter wasn't a current international from 2011 to 2015. But for a decent chunk of that he was the form No 8 in the AP.

You could even argue that the guys out of favour or with a couple of caps are more valuable to a team than current regular internationals. Sarries probably wouldn't swap Goode, available all year, for Brown, missing for the AIs and 6N.

No, obviously not.

Neither. They're not part of a full tier one squad yet.

I think my criteria were pretty unambiguous.

Outside international windows, as we are now, it's pretty clear that on balance somebody who is a recognised current international is more desirable than somebody who isn't. If you disagree with that then this is a pretty pointless argument to be getting involved in

Of course those wouldn't be perfect lines to judge on, but certainly better than "everyone who got a single cap ever".

Yup. No point arguing. If you think that Goode, Nev and Easter were less valuable to their respective teams just because they weren't current internationals, then I don't know what else to say.

And if you think Joe Gray is as valuable to ours as Joe Marler then I'm equally dumfounded.

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poorfour
Alex Goode is at his playing peak...

Alex Goode: I know I will be inviting a litany of correction from our North London cousins (and perhaps a few on CAW), but as they see fit critiquing Browny, here goes.

He is very good in open play or when play breaks down, giving him license to run riot in behind and through the cover defence, but this is a function of the way Sarries wear down and disorganise their opposition. Playing at higher level for England (the only other team I have seen him playing for) he doesn't often get that luxury and his defence (in the air/tackling) isn't as good as Brown (although last season MB's wasn't great).

Is he as valuable to England as Mike B? Is he "Out of favour": I don't think so; more like "not quite goode nough"

(There are younger and better options for England now - Watson, Daly, for example.)

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RodneyRegis
And if you think Joe Gray is as valuable to ours as Joe Marler then I'm equally dumfounded.

Where do you think I said that then?

All I said is that if you only count "current" internationals you end up with difficulties defining what a current international is, and that discounting the value of some players just because they weren't current internationals is a bit silly.

All I'm really trying to point out is that it's an inexact science. Like most things, you can't draw sharp lines.

Our squad in 2011-12 had, what, a bunch of Saxons and one cap wonders, Danny and Ugo on the fringes of the squad and (by your definition) a has-been 10 in Nick Evans. It was demonstrably the best squad in England that year. The next year, largely the same squad had more caps between them, but less success. It didn't make them less valuable as players.

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DazzaS
Only thing I am unsure of with JK is his interview style, he is clearly not comfortable in front of the camera.

Could this be why they've poached this guy from Team GB? Good that we can attract the big names Harlequins sign new staff

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poorfour

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RodneyRegis
And if you think Joe Gray is as valuable to ours as Joe Marler then I'm equally dumfounded.

Where do you think I said that then?

All I said is that if you only count "current" internationals you end up with difficulties defining what a current international is, and that discounting the value of some players just because they weren't current internationals is a bit silly.

All I'm really trying to point out is that it's an inexact science. Like most things, you can't draw sharp lines.

Our squad in 2011-12 had, what, a bunch of Saxons and one cap wonders, Danny and Ugo on the fringes of the squad and (by your definition) a has-been 10 in Nick Evans. It was demonstrably the best squad in England that year. The next year, largely the same squad had more caps between them, but less success. It didn't make them less valuable as players.

It's not about what you'e said, it's about the post I was repsonding to which you in turn questioned. There was a conversation about the number of internationals in premiership sides, in which I suggested that counting any one-cap wonder from 10 years ago the same as a current 100-capper is highly flawed. I suggested that members of current international squads would be a better yardstick - it's not perfect, but we're looking at methods of analysing current squad strength in a quick and dirty fashion.

Of course it's an inexact science. I was simply trying to suggest something a bit more relevant - total tier 1 caps might work too. The whole thing is utterly subjective in any case.

It's strange how demeanour and post-match interviews are given so much weight. Deano was pretty dour most of the time, in person and during interviews, but he did a fair bit to add some steel to the Quins team. I'm not comparing the two, mind you!

I was disappointed when JK got the gig; last time he was whatever the equivalent of "caretaker manager" is, he made a right cods of it - and yes, you can argue it wasn't "his" team, but he was the man in charge. In roundball, he'd probably have been sacked by now.

However...regardless of the arguments around who else was 1) available and 2) wanted to come, he got the gig. It was pretty deflating when that happened, but it happened. Now he has a limited window to show that his ideas as the man in charge are the right ideas. I don't buy all that "team in transition" nonsense. Yes, there are bedding in periods for new players, but we are not bringing in wholesale changes; there are enough old heads on the pitch to deal with that, as long as they take the time to do that.

I don't know if they were playing for EJ or JK last weekend, but they played, with purpose. If they keep doing that for long enough, then the point will be moot. I'm not expecting silverware - it was wonderful when it happened, but that memory has faded; other teams have picked up, and we have apparently stood still, sinking back into mid-table obscurity. Ten years ago, that would have been fine, but since then, we did win the title, and that sets a level of expectation. However, as DOK said, the key thing is to see improvement. And pride in the shirt, and the team, and each other. At the "match that shall not be named", and has since been overtaken by the fallout afterwards, and despite the low score of 5-6, the cup match against Leinster was a full blooded affair, with both teams going at it hammer and tongs. I said after that match that I almost didn't mind losing because of the way we played, with heart, passion and determination. If we play like we played that day (minus "that" incident), then that will be a really good start. Once you get that, then the skills give you the edge, and winning becomes more of a habit.

We've proved that we can do it, toppling Sarries and now Wasps. We now need to make that our way of playing, and if we can do that, then JK gets the breathing space to kick on. If we slip back into our old inconsistent ways, then he is going to be under pressure.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

Apologies if I am being simple, Boonie, but when you say you don't believe the ""team in transition" nonsense", do you mean that they don't need to time to adjust? You also think "as long as they take the time to do that." - surely this is adjustment too?

There might not be be wholesale changes to players, but to game plans, organisation (on the pitch - defence, attack, how/when to change plan etc), so would expect some bedding time.

I expect that when interviewed he asked for a year to change the team with some form of improvement (1 place in table - a moot improvement), a second year to cement changes and show real/solid improvement and a third year perhaps to make his mark and get to play offs/win a cup of some sort and maintain European Cup challenge. It took COS three seasons to bring in a cup, followed by the title, so having made the decision to appoint JK, they would have to give him the same chance.

Unlike football owners, rugby club owners seem to have a longer fuse and more distant event horizon: I can only see JK in trouble if we end up in relegation muddle. Our board seem conservative and he'd probably get away with another mid-table finish, not that this will please many of the fans.

Lastly, I don't buy the idea our players were playing for EJ exclusively (rather than JK): him being there, if they knew, would no doubt have spurred them on, but as I imagine he watches all the games that are played, suitably edited by the backroom staff, he would be gauging England and prospective England players constantly.

International/premiership rugby isn't exactly a "When the cat's away, the mice will play" scenario, is it?

The problem with the term "team in transition" is that it gets trotted out as an excuse and generally seems to last for several seasons. If there were major changes, and it took several matches to get the team playing as a team, then I could understand it - not when it gets used as an excuse for a whole season, or more than one season. I'm absolutely not a coach, but I'm suspicious of changes that take three years to bed in. I understand if you inherit players with long contracts that you don't really want, that might take a while to sort out, but three years?

When I said - take the time to do that - I meant the old heads on the pitch during the match taking the time to help the new boys. If that doesn't happen, and the old guard just do what they've always done, then nothing will change.

I'm glad rugby owners take the longer view - I'd hate us to go down the Crystal Palace route, for example.

And I also don't buy the EJ argument, but it was out there. Like I said, I don't really care which one they played for - they played.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

I'd certainly agree that if we hear JK saying "team in transition" at the end of the year, we're/he's in trouble - even if it comes out by Xmas...

Got to do the same on Saturday now - the real test - continuity - shame I can't make game - will have to watch while in Bath, so grateful its on telly..!

Without getting into the general debate, as I'm pretty bored of it, the team in transition argument has two problems. Firstly, it doesn't seem to apply to some teams - Bath for example. Secondly, some fans were saying we were are still a team in transition this season as we've got a few new signings. That would mean every season you'd have the team in transition excuse. I accept that if you completely change the game plan and style of play that players have been using for years then it will take a while for them to get used to it, so there will be a transition period, but can't really be used as an excuse in the second season. I've also not seen much evidence of that sort of change anyway.

I think people also find it harder to accept the term 'team in transition' when the current DOR has been part of the coaching set up for so long before taking over (and in fact has done the job before).

It's obviously not as simple as that, but unlike someone like Blackadder or Ackermann, you can't argue that JK (and indeed most of his coaching staff) need to learn the club or the league in general.

But if it has actually taken JK and his team one season (and one game bizarrely) to transish then I'm fine with it.

As Bolly says, if the transition period takes much longer I think time may start to run out for JK, although that sort of depends on what the club's ambitions actually are.

I think the wasps game can put the transition argument to bed.

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RodneyRegis
I think the wasps game can put the transition argument to bed.

It can?