Pretty sure Bothma was injured (broken arm) from his previous contract with the Bulls, & Saili was a constant sicknote with Munster. Both will probably turn out to be fantastic players but neither has hit the ground running, which is surely what your DOR would be looking for to make the required impact.
It seems as if you haven't got the depth of players a club needs to mount a serious challenge in Europe or for the Premiership.
Not sure what JK can do. You can't build a house with straw.
How many Quins players would, for example, Baxter want at Exeter? I'll leave you to debate that! You know your club far better than me. And would Baxter, if he was at Quins, do any better than JK bearing in mind what he would have to work with?
I think the bottom line is that you don't have that many quality players and seemingly a coaching set up that is unable to inspire what you have.
Not sure what JK can do. You can't build a house with straw.
How many Quins players would, for example, Baxter want at Exeter? I'll leave you to debate that! You know your club far better than me. And would Baxter, if he was at Quins, do any better than JK bearing in mind what he would have to work with?
I think the bottom line is that you don't have that many quality players and seemingly a coaching set up that is unable to inspire what you have.
Yawn.............
You are all repeating exactly what was said this time last season by a handful of posters who were ripped to shreads by the great and the good on CAW.
The reality is that there is no obvious replacement for JK and what top-flight southern hemisphere coach would want to come to a club with little track record of any concerted ambition - bar one mad year 5 years ago when Quins did the equivalent of a Leicester City!!
If JK were to go I would guess that the club would insist on retaining the entire coaching staff. So how could any world class DoR impose his own playing style.
JK will be able to bumble on playing hot & cold copy-cat rugby each week. Fortunately for him there are at least 4 even poorer clubs below Quins in the table.
I was genuinely optimistic after the performance against La Rochelle but the reality is that it was another one-off, like the home win against Sarries last season.
Quins, with or without injuries and international call-ups, do not have the depth of squad or application to compete at the top Euro level or Aviva play-offs. They have not built progressively each year with a backbone of quality players to compete in the squad like Sarries have done and they do not possess the tactical nous of Rob Baxter.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24/10/2017 00:25 by Quaking Quin.
You are all repeating exactly what was said this time last season by a handful of posters who were ripped to shreads by the great and the good on CAW.
The reality is that there is no obvious replacement for JK and what top-flight southern hemisphere coach would want to come to a club with little track record of any concerted ambition - bar one mad year 5 years ago when Quins did the equivalent of a Leicester City!!
If JK were to go I would guess that the club would insist on retaining the entire coaching staff. So how could any world class DoR impose his own playing style.
JK will be able to bumble on playing hot & cold copy-cat rugby each week. Fortunately for him there are at least 4 even poorer clubs below Quins in the table.
I was genuinely optimistic after the performance against La Rochelle but the reality is that it was another one-off, like the home win against Sarries last season.
Quins, with or without injuries and international call-ups, do not have the depth of squad or application to compete at the top Euro level or Aviva play-offs. They have not built progressively each year with a backbone of quality players to compete in the squad like Sarries have done and they do not possess the tactical nous of Rob Baxter.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24/10/2017 00:25 by Quaking Quin.
Quote:1908
It seems as if you haven't got the depth of players a club needs to mount a serious challenge in Europe or for the Premiership.
Not sure what JK can do. You can't build a house with straw.
How many Quins players would, for example, Baxter want at Exeter? I'll leave you to debate that! You know your club far better than me. And would Baxter, if he was at Quins, do any better than JK bearing in mind what he would have to work with?
I think the bottom line is that you don't have that many quality players and seemingly a coaching set up that is unable to inspire what you have.
This is the thing that frustrates me though. I genuinely think that on talent alone Baxter would take a lot of Quins players.
We've got so many internationals and talented players at Quins that it's even more disappointing when as a collective they are so poor.
I think someone like Baxter would make this Quins side excellent. He'd bring the best out of the players who are underperforming individually, get them to play like a team rather than a collection of individuals, and would get rid of the players who didn't buy into his approach.
That Exeter team isn't full of big names. But it's full of players who've been coached properly, who work for each other, and who buy into what their DOR is trying to achieve.
I would absolutely love to see that at Quins, but suspect we'd need an absolute clear out of staff and some players to even get near it.
Quote:Quaking Quin
Yawn.............
You are all repeating exactly what was said this time last season by a handful of posters who were ripped to shreads by the great and the good on CAW.
Doesn't that prove that the massive whiners who claimed we were doomed to relegation and had no chance of European qualification were rightly ignored, though? I remember the bleating last season - it was ludicrous and over the top.
Quote:I was genuinely optimistic after the performance against La Rochelle but the reality is that it was another one-off, like the home win against Sarries last season.
We seem to have a lot of one-offs. I suppose our previous performance against Wasps away from home was another one of them.
Happy to say we're a frustratingly inconsistent team but it's disingenuous to call the bad performances the standard and the good performances one-offs.
Quote:Quins, with or without injuries and international call-ups, do not have the depth of squad or application to compete at the top Euro level or Aviva play-offs. They have not built progressively each year with a backbone of quality players to compete in the squad like Sarries have done and they do not possess the tactical nous of Rob Baxter.
I largely agree with this.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
^^
We've won one out of our last 5, which was at home V Sale. I'd say that we are starting to find some consistency...being consistently poor.
We have of course also beaten Gloucester at home in the league. I don't think we've lost at The Stoop to them in the league for donkeys years, so that's not a world beating performance - and look where Glos are in the league.
So I think it would be disingenuous to claim that the win at the Ricoh was anything other than an outlier and a one off. Also bear in mind that this was against a Wasps team which was in a desperate run of form.
So far if it was a school report, I'd be giving Quins a C minus!
We've won one out of our last 5, which was at home V Sale. I'd say that we are starting to find some consistency...being consistently poor.
We have of course also beaten Gloucester at home in the league. I don't think we've lost at The Stoop to them in the league for donkeys years, so that's not a world beating performance - and look where Glos are in the league.
So I think it would be disingenuous to claim that the win at the Ricoh was anything other than an outlier and a one off. Also bear in mind that this was against a Wasps team which was in a desperate run of form.
So far if it was a school report, I'd be giving Quins a C minus!
Quote:Stooperman
So far if it was a school report, I'd be giving Quins a C minus!
Not a J-/K+?
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:RodneyRegisQuote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
Did we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)
Quinky's going to cling onto that 2 point loss at saints in the final game last season for dear life.
Quinky doesn't base the whole season on any one game. Quinky looks at the bigger picture.
Quinky looks at facts - we finished 6th, we got into the European Cup. Two improvements on the previous season.
That's just one improvement expressed in two different ways. We finished one place higher than the previous year, but with fewer actual points. No real underlying improvement, just a quirk of the table.
Also worth remembering that we had been flying high in 2nd or 3rd in late 2015 before CoS's departure was announced, at which point everything went spiraling downwards.
Quote:Stooperman
^^
We've won one out of our last 5, which was at home V Sale. I'd say that we are starting to find some consistency...being consistently poor.
We have of course also beaten Gloucester at home in the league. I don't think we've lost at The Stoop to them in the league for donkeys years, so that's not a world beating performance - and look where Glos are in the league.
So I think it would be disingenuous to claim that the win at the Ricoh was anything other than an outlier and a one off. Also bear in mind that this was against a Wasps team which was in a desperate run of form.
So far if it was a school report, I'd be giving Quins a C minus!
"Good performances" are not the same things as simple wins or losses.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
[quote Jammy Git] that it was another one-off, like the home win against Sarries last season.[/quote]
We seem to have a lot of one-offs. I suppose our previous performance against Wasps away from home was another one of them.[/quote]
Wasps are 10th in the league?! They also should have won that game comfortably if they hadn't completely butchered two tries and if Yarde's had rightly been disallowed for the forward pat down by Brown.
We seem to have a lot of one-offs. I suppose our previous performance against Wasps away from home was another one of them.[/quote]
Wasps are 10th in the league?! They also should have won that game comfortably if they hadn't completely butchered two tries and if Yarde's had rightly been disallowed for the forward pat down by Brown.
Coulda shoulda woulda
It was still an excellent performance away from home. Unlike the one we just managed.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
It was still an excellent performance away from home. Unlike the one we just managed.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Quote:thomhQuote:Quinky KinQuote:RodneyRegisQuote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
Did we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)
Quinky's going to cling onto that 2 point loss at saints in the final game last season for dear life.
Quinky doesn't base the whole season on any one game. Quinky looks at the bigger picture.
Quinky looks at facts - we finished 6th, we got into the European Cup. Two improvements on the previous season.
That's just one improvement expressed in two different ways. We finished one place higher than the previous year, but with fewer actual points. No real underlying improvement, just a quirk of the table.
Also worth remembering that we had been flying high in 2nd or 3rd in late 2015 before CoS's departure was announced, at which point everything went spiraling downwards.
But it was an improvement nonetheless. And improvements are what posters are clamouring for.
Interesting that you mention our league position earlier that season; I've been saying that we can't judge the team before the end of the season - that kind of proves my point.
Leaving aside the ridiculous title of the thread - its been done to death, this is developing into quite a reasonable discussion of the team's progress or lack thereof so far this year. I'd be interested to know how people judge the performances of the team. I'll start by giving my completely subjective scoring.
Unacceptable
Wasps (Ricoh EC) Attitude, discipline, tactics execution all terrible
London Irish (HQ) See above
Fair to middling
Leicester (Stoop) - inaccuracy and coulda shoulda woulda won)
Wasps (Ricoh Prem) Neither team was great
Glos (Stoop) - Glos flatter to deceive again, beat an 8th, 9th, 10th placed team at home
Sale (Stoop) - because we let them come back. and see Glos above
Saints (Franklins Gardens Prem) Almost put this in encouraging, but look at where Saints are in the EC - they're really not that good a team.
Encouraging
La Rochelle (Stoop) Pack fronted up well against a moster LR pack, midfield defence worrying
After Worcester we have games against Exeter(A),Bath(A), Sarries(H) & Newcastle(A), - on current form that I would suggest 5,0,1,1,1 = 8 more points by the half way point of the season putting us on 23 points. NOw sport being what it is, its impossible to be totally accurate about these things, but we will likely be less good in the second half of the season - because we lose our stars for the 6N, & we traditionally struggle on the boggy midwinter pitches.
We could end up with as few as 40 points and its hard to see us getting much beyond 55, but I'll certainly be cheering the boys on to try to make that top 6 again.
Unacceptable
Wasps (Ricoh EC) Attitude, discipline, tactics execution all terrible
London Irish (HQ) See above
Fair to middling
Leicester (Stoop) - inaccuracy and coulda shoulda woulda won)
Wasps (Ricoh Prem) Neither team was great
Glos (Stoop) - Glos flatter to deceive again, beat an 8th, 9th, 10th placed team at home
Sale (Stoop) - because we let them come back. and see Glos above
Saints (Franklins Gardens Prem) Almost put this in encouraging, but look at where Saints are in the EC - they're really not that good a team.
Encouraging
La Rochelle (Stoop) Pack fronted up well against a moster LR pack, midfield defence worrying
After Worcester we have games against Exeter(A),Bath(A), Sarries(H) & Newcastle(A), - on current form that I would suggest 5,0,1,1,1 = 8 more points by the half way point of the season putting us on 23 points. NOw sport being what it is, its impossible to be totally accurate about these things, but we will likely be less good in the second half of the season - because we lose our stars for the 6N, & we traditionally struggle on the boggy midwinter pitches.
We could end up with as few as 40 points and its hard to see us getting much beyond 55, but I'll certainly be cheering the boys on to try to make that top 6 again.
A fair appraisal, Stooperman
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
wasps away in the league must be encouraging.
I think I'd say the Wasps win in the league was encouraging simply due to the fight we showed.
Other than that I agree.
The most discouraging thing has been our inability to put together any sort of run of performances or results.
Sadly I think we may be about to see some consistency on that front as I agree with Stooperman that after the Worcester game we could be in for a run of defeats.
Obviously a big if, but if we do lose those games (and beat Worcester...also a big if) then we're looking at 7 losses and 4 wins in the league which is not great at all.
It obviously makes sense to wait and see if those results actually play out, but if they do then for me that's not really good enough and would require a massive turn around in the second half of the year to get us close to the 11 wins we got then.
As others have said, all ifs and buts at this stage, but I do suspect we'll be going into Christmas feeling fairly glum about our league position.
Other than that I agree.
The most discouraging thing has been our inability to put together any sort of run of performances or results.
Sadly I think we may be about to see some consistency on that front as I agree with Stooperman that after the Worcester game we could be in for a run of defeats.
Obviously a big if, but if we do lose those games (and beat Worcester...also a big if) then we're looking at 7 losses and 4 wins in the league which is not great at all.
It obviously makes sense to wait and see if those results actually play out, but if they do then for me that's not really good enough and would require a massive turn around in the second half of the year to get us close to the 11 wins we got then.
As others have said, all ifs and buts at this stage, but I do suspect we'll be going into Christmas feeling fairly glum about our league position.
The problem I have is that we are constantly told by Ellis and I believe it is also repeated inside the club that we are the best club in the World and others follow our example.
Therefore, why shouldn't we expect a top four finish every season and new, exciting signings every season plus qualification for the Euro knockout stages?
The BS being spouted by the club is as far from reality as you can get.
Why isn't this being addressed?
As I keep saying, we are a mediocre outfit.
If it isn't the players, it must be the coaches and vice versa.
Surely someone in authority must be able to see this and sort it out.
How many times has someone (player or coach) said that we need to take a long, hard look at ourselves or similar?
For the price people have to pay to go and watch, it simply isn't good enough when the team doesn't turn up! Mr Mourinho agrees with me at least
RleQ
Therefore, why shouldn't we expect a top four finish every season and new, exciting signings every season plus qualification for the Euro knockout stages?
The BS being spouted by the club is as far from reality as you can get.
Why isn't this being addressed?
As I keep saying, we are a mediocre outfit.
If it isn't the players, it must be the coaches and vice versa.
Surely someone in authority must be able to see this and sort it out.
How many times has someone (player or coach) said that we need to take a long, hard look at ourselves or similar?
For the price people have to pay to go and watch, it simply isn't good enough when the team doesn't turn up! Mr Mourinho agrees with me at least
RleQ
Quote:1908
It seems as if you haven't got the depth of players a club needs to mount a serious challenge in Europe or for the Premiership.
Not sure what JK can do. You can't build a house with straw.
How many Quins players would, for example, Baxter want at Exeter? I'll leave you to debate that! You know your club far better than me. And would Baxter, if he was at Quins, do any better than JK bearing in mind what he would have to work with?
I think the bottom line is that you don't have that many quality players and seemingly a coaching set up that is unable to inspire what you have.
Na. A team devoid of class wouldn't have beaten sarries twice when nobody had beaten them at full strength for 2 years. Wouldn't have win that game against a wasps side who hadn't list at home in living memory. Injuries haven't helped, but we've seen how good this side can be. Attitude and culture is the problem.
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
QUIN KONG
QUIN KONG
Quote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Started the night shift in the bar did you?
Quote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Press the red call button, someone will come soon
Quote:RodneyRegisQuote:1908
It seems as if you haven't got the depth of players a club needs to mount a serious challenge in Europe or for the Premiership.
Not sure what JK can do. You can't build a house with straw.
How many Quins players would, for example, Baxter want at Exeter? I'll leave you to debate that! You know your club far better than me. And would Baxter, if he was at Quins, do any better than JK bearing in mind what he would have to work with?
I think the bottom line is that you don't have that many quality players and seemingly a coaching set up that is unable to inspire what you have.
Na. A team devoid of class wouldn't have beaten sarries twice when nobody had beaten them at full strength for 2 years. Wouldn't have win that game against a wasps side who hadn't list at home in living memory. Injuries haven't helped, but we've seen how good this side can be. Attitude and culture is the problem.
Attitude yes - when we're losing, some players' heads drop. Culture, I'm not sure. The Yarde punishment suggests that there is discipline there. I'd also add playing as a team; when our guys click they can be almost unplayable. Other times they seem to try too hard and not much seems to work.
Sorry QP and Blucher, but over coaching is a valid hypothesis. We do come across rather rabbit in the head lights at times. That's where Smith has been such a revelation this season, if a bit lacking in nous at times. There's really no need to be so unnecessarily unpleasant to another poster.
I find the holier than though attitude on here very tiresome these days. Why is it necessary to disparage those with a different viewpoint in such an unpleasant manner? Can we all just play nice? Please.
I find the holier than though attitude on here very tiresome these days. Why is it necessary to disparage those with a different viewpoint in such an unpleasant manner? Can we all just play nice? Please.
Quote:Rocker
Sorry QP and Blucher, but over coaching is a valid hypothesis. We do come across rather rabbit in the head lights at times. That's where Smith has been such a revelation this season, if a bit lacking in nous at times. There's really no need to be so unnecessarily unpleasant to another poster.
I find the holier than though attitude on here very tiresome these days. Why is it necessary to disparage those with a different viewpoint in such an unpleasant manner? Can we all just play nice? Please.
Did you actually read QK's post?
BB
Quote:Rocker
Sorry QP and Blucher, but over coaching is a valid hypothesis. We do come across rather rabbit in the head lights at times. That's where Smith has been such a revelation this season, if a bit lacking in nous at times. There's really no need to be so unnecessarily unpleasant to another poster.
I find the holier than though attitude on here very tiresome these days. Why is it necessary to disparage those with a different viewpoint in such an unpleasant manner? Can we all just play nice? Please.
Erm, you've massively missed the point here.
Quote:Quinten PoulsenQuote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Started the night shift in the bar did you?
What? I gave an opinion of what has been going wrong,without trying to attribute blame and that’s your response?
QUIN KONG
Quote:RleQuin
The problem I have is that we are constantly told by Ellis and I believe it is also repeated inside the club that we are the best club in the World and others follow our example.
Therefore, why shouldn't we expect a top four finish every season and new, exciting signings every season plus qualification for the Euro knockout stages?
The BS being spouted by the club is as far from reality as you can get.
Why isn't this being addressed?
As I keep saying, we are a mediocre outfit.
If it isn't the players, it must be the coaches and vice versa.
Surely someone in authority must be able to see this and sort it out.
How many times has someone (player or coach) said that we need to take a long, hard look at ourselves or similar?
For the price people have to pay to go and watch, it simply isn't good enough when the team doesn't turn up! Mr Mourinho agrees with me at least
RleQ
Harlequins is a business. I have just retired after 40 years in business and one of the biggest changes in the last 40 years is how you communicate and promote your business. It has nothing to do with Truth but a lot to do with spin and news management. We should not be surprised by the BS coming from Ellis and the management any more than we should be surprised by Trump's fake news and Tweets. We can see that we have a good squad on good money. We can also see that we struggle to perform at the level of Exeter, Sarries and Wasps. The management can see this as well, but in modern business the last thing you do is a Gerald Rather and tell the truth or admit to any weakness. Jobs are at stake here. JKs and Ellis's and they don't want to lose them.
Quote:Quin KongQuote:Quinten PoulsenQuote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Started the night shift in the bar did you?
What? I gave an opinion of what has been going wrong,without trying to attribute blame and that’s your response?
Yep, and mine too. I'm sure it makes sense to you but your post seems to be missing a few prepositions, nouns, verbs, etc -- the kind of thing you might post when wasted.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/10/2017 11:39 by blucherquin.
I don't recall being told anything "constantly" by David Ellis. Not sure the last time I had a communication from him, to be honest.
Quote:Quin KongQuote:Quinten PoulsenQuote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Started the night shift in the bar did you?
What? I gave an opinion of what has been going wrong,without trying to attribute blame and that’s your response?
No, it's just that apart from the first line I didn't understand any of your post!
Blucher and BB get it!
Quote:Mancquin
Harlequins is a business. I have just retired after 40 years in business and one of the biggest changes in the last 40 years is how you communicate and promote your business. It has nothing to do with Truth but a lot to do with spin and news management. We should not be surprised by the BS coming from Ellis and the management any more than we should be surprised by Trump's fake news and Tweets. We can see that we have a good squad on good money. We can also see that we struggle to perform at the level of Exeter, Sarries and Wasps. The management can see this as well, but in modern business the last thing you do is a Gerald Rather and tell the truth or admit to any weakness. Jobs are at stake here. JKs and Ellis's and they don't want to lose them.
Sadly I've only been in business for a little over 30 years. I disagree with some of what you say, and sports is unlike pretty much any other business in many ways.
But the fact that you decide to bring the US President into this kind of makes me think it's not a discussion worth having.
[email]y[/email]
Fair play, I was just trying to say that the team was being overcoached. Maybe with an emphasis on not getting injured.
QUIN KONG
Quote:Quinten PoulsenQuote:Quin KongQuote:Quinten PoulsenQuote:Quin Kong
I think that JKs and Quins problem is that they’re over coached. I also worry that the Wasps game may have been don’t get injured. I hope that the only coaching against any opponent in future is on direct opposites ‘tells’ and nothing more, let the player work out how to defeat them. Other than that just dry run through various drills for muscle memory with only two or three players told to get in position for them to take effect.
Started the night shift in the bar did you?
What? I gave an opinion of what has been going wrong,without trying to attribute blame and that’s your response?
No, it's just that apart from the first line I didn't understand any of your post!
Blucher and BB get it!
Fair play, I was just trying to say that the team was being overcoached. Maybe with an emphasis on not getting injured.
QUIN KONG
'Overcoached'.....WTF does that mean??????
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:Mancquin
Harlequins is a business. I have just retired after 40 years in business and one of the biggest changes in the last 40 years is how you communicate and promote your business. It has nothing to do with Truth but a lot to do with spin and news management. We should not be surprised by the BS coming from Ellis and the management any more than we should be surprised by Trump's fake news and Tweets. We can see that we have a good squad on good money. We can also see that we struggle to perform at the level of Exeter, Sarries and Wasps. The management can see this as well, but in modern business the last thing you do is a Gerald Rather and tell the truth or admit to any weakness. Jobs are at stake here. JKs and Ellis's and they don't want to lose them.
Sadly I've only been in business for a little over 30 years. I disagree with some of what you say, and sports is unlike pretty much any other business in many ways.
But the fact that you decide to bring the US President into this kind of makes me think it's not a discussion worth having.
Ahh - an update on Godwin’s law: reductio ad Trumpio - Mueller’s law...
I think Mancquin is spot on.Ellis and JK don’t want to lose their jobs and it’s not in their interest to face up to reality.Jk lives locally been with us 15 years and seeing out his time till retirement is his game plan is my guess
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 25/10/2017 20:06 by MarlerOne.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 25/10/2017 20:06 by MarlerOne.
Quote:MarlerOne
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Yes and when there’s thunder next door’s wife has a baby, because those things happened before so it must be linked.......
Quote:blucherquinQuote:MarlerOne
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Yes and when there’s thunder next door’s wife has a baby, because those things happened before so it must be linked.......
Everything that occurs within a hierarchical human collective happens in large part due to the (in)actions of the (wo)man at the top.
If our team’s performance is as independent of the DoR’s actions as your neighbour’s fertility is of the weather then we might as well dispense with the post all together and save the money.
Quote:MrOtherQuote:blucherquinQuote:MarlerOne
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Yes and when there�s thunder next door�s wife has a baby, because those things happened before so it must be linked.......
Everything that occurs within a hierarchical human collective happens in large part due to the (in)actions of the (wo)man at the top.
If our team�s performance is as independent of the DoR�s actions as your neighbour�s fertility is of the weather then we might as well dispense with the post all together and save the money.
So, when we win JK must be doing a fantastic job?
Quote:MrOtherQuote:blucherquinQuote:MarlerOne
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Yes and when there’s thunder next door’s wife has a baby, because those things happened before so it must be linked.......
Everything that occurs within a hierarchical human collective happens in large part due to the (in)actions of the (wo)man at the top.
If our team’s performance is as independent of the DoR’s actions as your neighbour’s fertility is of the weather then we might as well dispense with the post all together and save the money.
I'm afraid at "hierarchical human collective" we rumbled you as having a middle management job that involves "giving good meeting"
Quote:blucherquinQuote:MrOtherQuote:blucherquinQuote:MarlerOne
We currently have an entire front row out due to suspensions, this includes 2 who are Eng /Lions players... another Eng player who can't be bothered to turn up on time for Captain's run...there is something deeply wrong at the club we all love....
Yes and when there’s thunder next door’s wife has a baby, because those things happened before so it must be linked.......
Everything that occurs within a hierarchical human collective happens in large part due to the (in)actions of the (wo)man at the top.
If our team’s performance is as independent of the DoR’s actions as your neighbour’s fertility is of the weather then we might as well dispense with the post all together and save the money.
I'm afraid at "hierarchical human collective" we rumbled you as having a middle management job that involves "giving good meeting"
:-)
Nice line!
Quote:blucherquin
My point was rather, in what categories of organization can we argue that the buck stops (t)here?
It’s not just sports clubs, or businesses or universities etc etc. it applies - it seems to me - to any group of people that together are aiming to achieve something and that are hierarchically organized. Unwieldy as it is “hierarchical human collective” seems to me to be the term for that.
Quote:MrOtherQuote:blucherquin
My point was rather, in what categories of organization can we argue that the buck stops (t)here?
It’s not just sports clubs, or businesses or universities etc etc. it applies - it seems to me - to any group of people that together are aiming to achieve something and that are hierarchically organized. Unwieldy as it is “hierarchical human collective” seems to me to be the term for that.
Totally get it, but you'll agree it couldn't be allowed to pass....
Quote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
'Overcoached'.....WTF does that mean??????
Not too sure myself, but I think Easter said the same thing at the Quinssa AGM didn't he?
Quote:blucherquinQuote:MrOtherQuote:blucherquin
My point was rather, in what categories of organization can we argue that the buck stops (t)here?
It’s not just sports clubs, or businesses or universities etc etc. it applies - it seems to me - to any group of people that together are aiming to achieve something and that are hierarchically organized. Unwieldy as it is “hierarchical human collective” seems to me to be the term for that.
Totally get it, but you'll agree it couldn't be allowed to pass....
Yes, agreed. It couldn’t!
Wasp supporter comes in peace - You have a good squad and arguably the most talented fly-half in the country. You should easily make top 6 this season with the players you have. JK fell into his job but I'm not sure he's suited for it and I'm not sure simply promoting former players straight into coaching jobs really works either. Easter and Evans should go earn their corn elsewhere for a while ... see things from a different perspective.
2 British Lions suspended. The worst injury list ever. Bothma yet to play. Saili hardly played at all. Ditto Catrakilis. Two ex players in coaching roles for which they are not trained? A DoR who was not first or even second choice. Its surprising we are doing as well as we are.
Quote:Mancquin
2 British Lions suspended. The worst injury list ever. Bothma yet to play. Saili hardly played at all. Ditto Catrakilis. Two ex players in coaching roles for which they are not trained? A DoR who was not first or even second choice. Its surprising we are doing as well as we are.
I think JK should be ashamed that he signed a player who got a fractured bone in his throat, a second player who was concussed making a tackle, and a third who dared to break an arm. What kind of DOR signs a player who gets injured, let alone three of them?
Quote:DOK
See a stick, beat JK!
I personally think JK should be criticised for not providing enough sticks... etc etc
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:Mancquin
2 British Lions suspended. The worst injury list ever. Bothma yet to play. Saili hardly played at all. Ditto Catrakilis. Two ex players in coaching roles for which they are not trained? A DoR who was not first or even second choice. Its surprising we are doing as well as we are.
I think JK should be ashamed that he signed a player who got a fractured bone in his throat, a second player who was concussed making a tackle, and a third who dared to break an arm. What kind of DOR signs a player who gets injured, let alone three of them?
*hunts for wording where Mancquin blamed JK for signing injured players*
Nope it can't be done.
But hey...any stick to beat someone who doesn't agree with you eh?
Why employ someone (JK) when they have no experience playing top flight rugby. He last played in the mid 80's. The game has changed so mucg since then.
He studied under CoS, he took Richmond to the Title, he has worked with world class players and coaches for years so the fact that he hasn't played in The Premiership is not a reason to knock him. As I recall, Ellis and Co had cast their net far and wide but could not find a better candidate with as much enthusiasm and nous as JK so gave him the job, and no I dont think he was a cheap option because JK likes a little flutter and is a wily old bird. He is also a very pleasant man but I'm quite sure he is capable of lobbing the odd hairdryer when needed.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Quote:talkshowhost86Quote:Quinky KinQuote:Mancquin
2 British Lions suspended. The worst injury list ever. Bothma yet to play. Saili hardly played at all. Ditto Catrakilis. Two ex players in coaching roles for which they are not trained? A DoR who was not first or even second choice. Its surprising we are doing as well as we are.
I think JK should be ashamed that he signed a player who got a fractured bone in his throat, a second player who was concussed making a tackle, and a third who dared to break an arm. What kind of DOR signs a player who gets injured, let alone three of them?
*hunts for wording where Mancquin blamed JK for signing injured players*
Nope it can't be done.
But hey...any stick to beat someone who doesn't agree with you eh?
You're right, I should have pointed out that the club are at fault for signing players who get injured. Which then suggests that no club in the world is properly run. Unless you can highlight any club that has never had an injured player?
Incidentally, nice of you to pull me up. Will you be mentioning to DOK that made the same grave mistake?
Maybe one day QK will realise that he does more than anyone to perpetuate the JK discussion by turning so many comments that vaguely resemble criticism of JK into a full-blown assassination of his man.
Then again.........
Then again.........
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:talkshowhost86Quote:Quinky KinQuote:Mancquin
2 British Lions suspended. The worst injury list ever. Bothma yet to play. Saili hardly played at all. Ditto Catrakilis. Two ex players in coaching roles for which they are not trained? A DoR who was not first or even second choice. Its surprising we are doing as well as we are.
I think JK should be ashamed that he signed a player who got a fractured bone in his throat, a second player who was concussed making a tackle, and a third who dared to break an arm. What kind of DOR signs a player who gets injured, let alone three of them?
*hunts for wording where Mancquin blamed JK for signing injured players*
Nope it can't be done.
But hey...any stick to beat someone who doesn't agree with you eh?
You're right, I should have pointed out that the club are at fault for signing players who get injured. Which then suggests that no club in the world is properly run. Unless you can highlight any club that has never had an injured player?
Incidentally, nice of you to pull me up. Will you be mentioning to DOK that made the same grave mistake?
Again I see absolutely no indication of anyone blaming the club for signing injured players. Just Mancquin saying it's amazing we're doing so well considering the number of injuries we have. Yes he criticies JK and the club...but not for signing injured players.
So het up are you about your pious defence of everything JK that you're actually looking for criticisms that aren't there.
Just making work for yourself QK.
And I called you up on it mainly because of your obnoxious sarcasm smiley...but if you insist...
DOK...I'm afraid QK has dobbed you in. You naughty rapscallion.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/10/2017 11:25 by talkshowhost86.
Quote:Cookie
Maybe one day QK will realise that he does more than anyone to perpetuate the JK discussion by turning so many comments that vaguely resemble criticism of JK into a full-blown assassination of his man.
Then again.........
Maybe Cookie will also notice that I've been critical of the club and of JK at times, when I felt it necessary.
Then again........
Quote:ArchQuin
QK & JK are one and the same
Damn! Sussed me out...
Didn't JK (or was it someone else) go to New Zealand in the off season a few years back to study how they coached?
Quote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:Cookie
Maybe one day QK will realise that he does more than anyone to perpetuate the JK discussion by turning so many comments that vaguely resemble criticism of JK into a full-blown assassination of his man.
Then again.........
Maybe Cookie will also notice that I've been critical of the club and of JK at times, when I felt it necessary.
Then again........
Missing the point. Again.
Quote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
Quote:le tissQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
Agree with this completely. Moving everyone up a position bred comfort. As I always say, this is not just about JK. You could have pointed that at COS before he left and definitely Mapletoft and Osborne. It's becoming endemic and I thought we needed a sweep out of a few bodies last season, mostly at the top of the chain.
Exactly! In the circumstances we are doing better than we might have. There are 2 issues. Bad luck and poor managenent. Injuried players are bad luck. Suspended players have to be seen as bad management.
Exactly! In the circumstances we are doing better than we might have. There are 2 issues. Bad luck and poor managenent. Injuried players are bad luck.
Quote:le tissQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
I can see why you say "cosy" but Sarries have spent a great deal of money in trying to create a togetherness that we already have in spades.
Mind you, if we get nilled at home by Wuss tomorrow I will be starting my own JK must go thread!!
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Quote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tissQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
I can see why you say "cosy" but Sarries have spent a great deal of money in trying to create a togetherness that we already have in spades.
Mind you, if we get nilled at home by Wuss tomorrow I will be starting my own JK must go thread!!
I think the difference with Sarries is that they obviously buy into the way that their coaches want them to play, and when that is put together with the team spirit they're able to muster then it's a great combination.
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.
I think the players getting to comfy/cosy/complacent accusation looks quite accurate. It's effectively been the same coaching set up since 2009 and I think things have just got very staid, with not much desire to change anything.
It's why I didn't think we should have gone for JK in the first place, and to be fair why I don't think we were going for JK in the first place.
Rowntree hasn't been round that long has he? And he's a major cog....
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Quote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tissQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
I can see why you say "cosy" but Sarries have spent a great deal of money in trying to create a togetherness that we already have in spades.
Mind you, if we get nilled at home by Wuss tomorrow I will be starting my own JK must go thread!!
Cohesion <> cosyness.
Why do you think we hav such togetherness?
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