Quote:talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.
What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.
What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.
Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?
Quote:RleQuin
Truth is if it isn't addressed, another 2005 will come along and down we will go (again)!
RleQ
Quote:talkshowhost86Quote:RleQuin
Truth is if it isn't addressed, another 2005 will come along and down we will go (again)!
RleQ
To be fair even in the last three years when we've not been any good, we still finished 32, 35 and 48 points ahead of the team who finished bottom. If (as we should) we beat Worcester tomorrow we'll already be 19/20 points ahead of the bottom team.
I think if we continue in the way we are we'll be down in the 9th/10th position, but at the moment we're a way off getting relegated.
Quote:talkshowhost86Quote:Quinky KinQuote:talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.
What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.
What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.
Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?
No way of knowing, but personally I think we're a team of good individuals who are all close as a team, but who are getting very little direction from on high (or they are getting direction that they don't believe in and therefore don't listen to) and are therefore largely doing their own thing.
That's why we'll get the odd sparkling performance (like against Sarries at the Stoop in recent years) or we'll get the odd gritty win (Wasps in the league this year) but ultimately it will never be consistent, and as you say if it doesn't immediately click we just fall apart.
They need someone to come in and shake them up, get them to do something a bit different and really buy into what the team is doing.
I don't think JK and the current team are able to do that.
Quote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tissQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.
I can see why you say "cosy" but Sarries have spent a great deal of money in trying to create a togetherness that we already have in spades.
Mind you, if we get nilled at home by Wuss tomorrow I will be starting my own JK must go thread!!
Quote:DOK
Didn't JK (or was it someone else) go to New Zealand in the off season a few years back to study how they coached?
Quote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:talkshowhost86Quote:Quinky KinQuote:talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.
What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.
What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.
Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?
No way of knowing, but personally I think we're a team of good individuals who are all close as a team, but who are getting very little direction from on high (or they are getting direction that they don't believe in and therefore don't listen to) and are therefore largely doing their own thing.
That's why we'll get the odd sparkling performance (like against Sarries at the Stoop in recent years) or we'll get the odd gritty win (Wasps in the league this year) but ultimately it will never be consistent, and as you say if it doesn't immediately click we just fall apart.
They need someone to come in and shake them up, get them to do something a bit different and really buy into what the team is doing.
I don't think JK and the current team are able to do that.
The conundrum is that when it does click, we ARE good enough. So maybe the issue is a psychological one? Maybe it's a trust or confidence issue? Whether that's trust in coaches, players or systems.
I believe that if we can perform well consistently, we'd be contenders. I agree that the players are skilled and capable, but the inconsistency is what puzzles and frustrates me.
Quote:Stooperman
I feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.
ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.
Quote:Dave LQuote:Stooperman
I feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.
ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.
I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It’s not “just the way they play” because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!
Quote:CookieQuote:Dave LQuote:Stooperman
I feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.
ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.
I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It�s not �just the way they play� because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!
My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.
But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.
To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:CookieQuote:Dave LQuote:Stooperman
I feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.
ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.
I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It�s not �just the way they play� because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!
My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.
But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.
To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.
Would that not be a case of the players influencing the board over the choice if coaches? I'm not sure it would be good for players to have so much power.
Quote:CookieQuote:Quinky KinQuote:CookieQuote:Dave LQuote:Stooperman
I feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.
ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.
I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It�s not �just the way they play� because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!
My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.
But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.
To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.
Would that not be a case of the players influencing the board over the choice if coaches? I'm not sure it would be good for players to have so much power.
Good point and yes, it would be the case. But the players always hold the power, particularly if they work as a group (e.g. England players going on strike). That's why it's important that they believe in the coaching and systems as they are far harder to change, quite simply because there are more of them. Furthermore, if even 2 or 3 are underperforming because of it, the whole team suffers as a consequence.
Quote:Quinky Kin
For the record, as time goes on I'm starting to think that Tofty and Dippy maybe should be under the microscope.
Quote:DOK
Well, I think you could certainly examine
Our skills coach
Our defence coach
Our attack coach
The bloke who's supposed to sort out the players mindset/psychology.
The only coaches I'd absolve from blame at the moment is our scrum coaches Rowntree & Jones - but I was expecting them to be a big improvement on JK and actually I think JK did more with less. And it's probably grossly unfair, but I'd point out an entire first choice front row is currently suspended.
And yes, Mark Mapletoft is Head Coach. He bears direct responsibility for the others and their performance.
Not sure I'd include Dippy, he seems out the firing line as Academy and Global Development Director.
And someone is going to tell me that JK is ultimately responsible for all of them and therefore every mistake they make is directly attributable to him. Well I currently work for Vodafone (it won't last!) but were I to accidentally drop a production database for one of the clients, nobody jumps up and down and screams at Vittorio Colao (CEO) about what a poor job he's doing. They'd find me, and possibly my manager responsible!
Quote:T-BoneQuote:ScaramoucheQuote:le tiss
The truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.
You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.
Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.
Not sure anyone has asked for instant success. How far have we come in the last few years? We've gone from winning and few years in top 4 to mid table mediocrity. Under JK's watch we have improved table position and got back into the top table in Europe, which is awesome, but I can't see any reason to say we've made strides over the last few years.
We have Ben Glynn starting most of our games. We have Dave Lewis as our back up 9. I'm sure they're lovely blokes but that is a sad state of affairs.
Quote:#COYQ
On the C5 show David Flatman said we were 15 individuals on the pitch, not a team of 15.
That would suggest problems with regards to our 'team spirit'........
Quote:NicoWilson
Towards the end of the LV game against Sarries I think I heard the commentator say that Mapletoft and Rowntree were running yesterday's game.
Did I hear this correctly?
Quote:You did, I think they also said that Easter + 1 would be in charge next week.NicoWilson
Towards the end of the LV game against Sarries I think I heard the commentator say that Mapletoft and Rowntree were running yesterday's game.
Did I hear this correctly?
Quote:NicoWilson
Towards the end of the LV game against Sarries I think I heard the commentator say that Mapletoft and Rowntree were running yesterday's game.
Did I hear this correctly?
Quote:Candelamaria
It was MM and GR as head coaches, also Easter and Tom Williams was on the pitch during warm up.
Suspect Tom will be around keeping an eye on his players. But brilliant to see him
Quote:TitusQuinQuote:Candelamaria
It was MM and GR as head coaches, also Easter and Tom Williams was on the pitch during warm up.
Suspect Tom will be around keeping an eye on his players. But brilliant to see him
Think it was for media purposes as you say all the coaches were present and taking a strong hand except JK who presumably is giving all coaches a bit more responsibility in these weeks.
Quote:TV showed him well before that.PeterboroughQuin
Kingston only showed his face when we started scoring tries at the end
Quote:New Forest Quin
When COS was DoR, as I remember, he put JK in charge of the team for the LV games.
Quote:Quinky KinQuote:New Forest Quin
When COS was DoR, as I remember, he put JK in charge of the team for the LV games.
Didn't we do rather well in the LV then?
Quote:DOKQuote:TV showed him well before that.PeterboroughQuin
Kingston only showed his face when we started scoring tries at the end
Quote:PeterboroughQuin
Kingston only showed his face when we started scoring tries at the end
Quote:PeterboroughQuin
Kingston only showed his face when we started scoring tries at the end
Quote:blucherquinQuote:Quinky KinQuote:New Forest Quin
When COS was DoR, as I remember, he put JK in charge of the team for the LV games.
Didn't we do rather well in the LV then?
We did mess up badly one time and won it.
Quote:Jammy Git
On the flip side, Steven Hansen and Graham Henry are very similar to JK in demeanor on game day.
Quote:Dibden
Just watching Eddie J leading the England warm up with intensity and purpose written all over his face and fully engaged with the players.I contrast this with JK with his hands in his pockets looking like a spare part and bored with what’s going on as he wanders aimlessly about.
As a player who would fire you up more?
Quote:Dibden
Just watching Eddie J leading the England warm up with intensity and purpose written all over his face and fully engaged with the players.I contrast this with JK with his hands in his pockets looking like a spare part and bored with what’s going on as he wanders aimlessly about.
As a player who would fire you up more?