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Why not NE out?
The Dead Baron (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 08:38
Another non-divisive, genuine talking / discussion point for you: It seems to me on recent performances that the team have the skills and the gameplan but our defense is utterly lacking. If we accept that JK is the DoR so the "high level thinking" man, and he relies on his coaching team to drill the nuts and bolts - surely the blame for our recent poor performances should lie with Minty rather than JK. So instead of "JK out" why not "NE out"?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 08:41
I never actually wanted him in!!!

 
Re: Why not NE out?
rdc (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:02
I know Nick is an absolute Quins hero, and an incredible rugby player, but I am totally confused. Is our defence system no good or cant we execute it well enough? For a significant portion of our games it appears to work, but if we let someone run more than 10 yds, it seems we are utterly porous and we leak a try every time.

If we are able to stop this and just hold onto that final pass in defence we really would look totally different side

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:08
So who is available to replace him?



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:12
Quote:
Scaramouche
So who is available to replace him?

Thats the job of the club to find out, not the fans. I dont see the point in keeping someone just because there may not be anyone else around (there is always someone).

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:23
Well thats no fun at all. Easy to be a knocker but not so easy to be constructive methinks.



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Chuckquin (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:40
Minty was a hero as a player and is a zero as a defense coach

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:41
Quote:
Scaramouche
Well thats no fun at all. Easy to be a knocker but not so easy to be constructive methinks.

I just say it how I see it, nothing against any coach/player

Easy to point out that our defence has been poor all season and we ship far too many points (nearly 29 a game in the league). Until that changes we will struggle to win anything. You asked who is available, simple answer is I do not know, I dont know the situation contract wise of the coaches out there, or who would be willing to come here. That does not mean I have to think Easter is the best man for the job. Yesterday showed how woeful our defence is.

What I will say is barring Sarries, no one has scored more points in the league

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quins Lad (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:48
And who would have had a big say in his appointment? John Kingston. Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler are half the players they were under COS. Let's not forget, COS won the league with a similar squad in terms of talent...just shows what a can happen with a decent coach.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:51
This may be controversial but I still think that the foundations of the title winning season we set by Richards. COS obviously played his part but it seemed to me the more it became COS team in the following seasons, the more we reverted to Quins of old. I would be tempted to say that Richards would have won the title eventually had he stayed.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
DOK (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 09:52
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 10:15
Quote:
DOK
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

Agreed.

But let’s not forget who else was in the coaching staff during that decline.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 10:04
Players who are essentially one/two club men are always starting in the back foot when it comes to make great coaches straight away. Following on from your other post, I think it is more likely that Easter has "lost the dressing room" than JK. Having said that, the problem would be more that he never had it in the first place.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 10:41
Yesterday we seemed to miss first up tackles when faced with a running ball carrier but we continued to kick aimlessly and not chase up in any sort of line.

When their ballcarriers were in traffic the Quins forwards coped well.

Worcester hardly kicked the ball away at stages of the game especially in the last quarter and always looked dangerous in running attack.

The leaders among the Quins players on the pitch should be able to work this out and stop / demand that the backs stop kicking away possession and allow the forwards to revert to driving the ball up.

We blame coaches for the lack of on pitch game management....but I think the players have to take responsibilty. Charlie W jumping out of the line shows poor decision making. The players need to work harder as a team / squad.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
29 October, 2017 11:06
Quote:
Adi Nako
Players who are essentially one/two club men are always starting in the back foot when it comes to make great coaches straight away. Following on from your other post, I think it is more likely that Easter has "lost the dressing room" than JK. Having said that, the problem would be more that he never had it in the first place.

I don't mind ex-players going straight into coaching at their clubs, but the Tom Williams path of making your bones with a junior team is a better way. If you step straight off the pitch into the coaching seats, I think there is a need for separation between coaches and players to help with the dynamics of having to tell people they aren't up to scratch/aren't performing as you know they can and I'm not sure that someone who has been one of the lads one week can be that the next.

It feels very much like Easter and Evans got their jobs because of their playing careers, not because of any sustained period of excellence as a coach anywhere (and not pitching up part time at a local club, either).

 
Re: Why not NE out?
DOK (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:08
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

Agreed.

But let’s not forget who else was in the coaching staff during that decline.

How does this work then?

When the team performs badly under the current DOR, you scream for his head.
When I say the team performed badly under the previous DOR, suddenly it's the individual coaches who are to blame.

Any stick to beat JK.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:12
I'm pretty sure you have to study and qualify to act as a Coach to various different levels?



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:16
The rot (poor performances/inconsistency) started with COS, this is not a new thing with JK, its a continuation. Its no surprise considering it is the same people involved (coaches). That is why we need a clean sweep, new coaching set up with fresh ideas, instead we promoted Jk

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Dave L (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:24
Quote:
Kent Fan
Yesterday we seemed to miss first up tackles when faced with a running ball carrier but we continued to kick aimlessly and not chase up in any sort of line.
When their ballcarriers were in traffic the Quins forwards coped well.

Worcester hardly kicked the ball away at stages of the game especially in the last quarter and always looked dangerous in running attack.

The leaders among the Quins players on the pitch should be able to work this out and stop / demand that the backs stop kicking away possession and allow the forwards to revert to driving the ball up.

We blame coaches for the lack of on pitch game management....but I think the players have to take responsibilty. Charlie W jumping out of the line shows poor decision making. The players need to work harder as a team / squad.

We do love a good hoof down the opposition back 3's throats. I do feel Care's kicking has got a fair bit better this season though.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:30
Paul Gustard wasnt a great player but from outside seems to be a very innovative coach and squad builder.

Perhaps Both NEs need to shake things up and innovate by changing the much vaunted but serially ineffective Quins way / style of play.

Not sure of the domestic arrangements for the Sarries squad wives, partners & children but they seem to have a very strong squad bond.

Perhaps that needs to be instilled in the current squad again as we had it in 2011/12 season with crop of aspiring youngsters.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 11:38
Quote:
Kent Fan
Paul
Perhaps Both NEs need to shake things up and innovate by changing the much vaunted but serially ineffective Quins way / style of play.


AGreed, but I was under the impression that such changes were being brought ion last year and the players were taking time to get used to the new systems?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 12:21
Quote:
DOK
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

Agreed.

But let’s not forget who else was in the coaching staff during that decline.

How does this work then?

When the team performs badly under the current DOR, you scream for his head.
When I say the team performed badly under the previous DOR, suddenly it's the individual coaches who are to blame.

Any stick to beat JK.

Absolute nonsense.

COS was at fault for our decline as he was ultimately responsible as DOR.

But clearly part of the problem then, as it is now, is that the coaches aren’t up to it.

So why are they all still at the club...most of them with promotions?

This lazy ‘any stick’ mantra that you’re propagating is just your way of trying to dodge any actual debate about the pros and cons of our current coaching setup.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 12:20
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

Agreed.

But let’s not forget who else was in the coaching staff during that decline.

How does this work then?

When the team performs badly under the current DOR, you scream for his head.
When I say the team performed badly under the previous DOR, suddenly it's the individual coaches who are to blame.

Any stick to beat JK.

Absolute nonsense.

COS was at fault for our decline as he was ultimately responsible as DOR.

But clearly part of the problem then, as it is now, is that the coaches aren’t up to it.

So why are they all still at the club...most of them with promotions?

This lazy ‘any stick’ mantra that you’re propagating is just your way of trying to dodge any actual debate about the pros and cons of our current coaching setup.

I think the "any stick" mantra is perfectly accurate in response to some comments on here.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 12:32
Key Question -

For me, NE was given a season (last year) to develop a defensive structure for the squad, it was ropey last year, but defence is generally better with practice, this season, the system appears to be in place, it's just not a good one.

We're fine when teams just run phase play, but as soon as broken play emerges we seem to really struggle or when a line break is made. The system seems to rely on Quins dominating the tackle area, something we struggle to do and is all about having fast players (marchant) who can slide quickly across, when teams get around the outside. Yarde was good at this and so is Marchant...gives them a hell of a lot to do though.

I'm not one for calling for people's heads but I do think that there needs to be a change in this area for next season - and this could be the thing that defines JK's reign, does he have the mettle to get rid or demote a former quin, to get the best out of the squad.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 12:41
Quote:
Scaramouche
So who is available to replace him?

Stop asking this stupid question. There's probably nobody around at this stage of the season. Hence weak coaches should be replaced in the off-season, or we should start looking now for next. Better Still, he shouldn't have been employed in the first place until he had proven himself capable of coaching defence for a top level side.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/10/2017 12:45 by RodneyRegis.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 12:54
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Scaramouche
So who is available to replace him?

Stop asking this stupid question. There's probably nobody around at this stage of the season. Hence weak coaches should be replaced in the off-season, or we should start looking now for next. Better Still, he shouldn't have been employed in the first place until he had proven himself capable of coaching defence for a top level side.


Steady rodders. I reserve the right to keep asking this "stupid" question for just as long as people keep asking for the departure of certain individuals without contributing anything to the debate over succession planning.

And, as Hammy says in "Over the Hedge"...."I'm not stewpid!!"



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Why not NE out?
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 13:58
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler became half the players they were under COS.

Agreed.

But let’s not forget who else was in the coaching staff during that decline.

How does this work then?

When the team performs badly under the current DOR, you scream for his head.
When I say the team performed badly under the previous DOR, suddenly it's the individual coaches who are to blame.

Any stick to beat JK.

Absolute nonsense.

COS was at fault for our decline as he was ultimately responsible as DOR.

But clearly part of the problem then, as it is now, is that the coaches aren’t up to it.

So why are they all still at the club...most of them with promotions?

This lazy ‘any stick’ mantra that you’re propagating is just your way of trying to dodge any actual debate about the pros and cons of our current coaching setup.

I think the "any stick" mantra is perfectly accurate in response to some comments on here.

The house is made of sticks, unfortunately.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 17:17
If its stupid to ask "who is available to replace him", may I ask you guys who then should have been appointed defence coach for the start of last season? Not an easy one is it?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:14
So you think Easter was the best option???

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:17
Oh great, another thread where people who know nothing about elite coaching share their views.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:21
Do not need to know anything about coaching to know our defence needs to improve massively. I cant see how anyone can defend (no pun intended) currently.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:28
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Oh great, another thread where people who know nothing about elite coaching share their views.

You don't have to read it smiling smiley

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:28
Too late Rodders!

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:33
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Do not need to know anything about coaching to know our defence needs to improve massively. I cant see how anyone can defend (no pun intended) currently.

Well quite. We have facts and evidence. What we don't know is how much is down to poor coaching - specifically defensive coaching.

I also find it odd that people think they know the best route for coaches to take to become successful or good coaches, when there are a ton of examples of players moving straight into high level coaching and doing well.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:56
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Oh great, another thread where people who know nothing about elite coaching share their views.

Just a quick question....

If people without elite coaching experience can’t discuss the coaches on here, presumably the same goes for people who aren’t elite rugby players discussing player performances.

If that’s the case are we just supposed to sit on here discussing sandwich recipes?

Or is that just for the likes of Gordon Ramsey?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:50
Obviously you can discuss anything you like. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 18:55
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Do not need to know anything about coaching to know our defence needs to improve massively. I cant see how anyone can defend (no pun intended) currently.

Well quite. We have facts and evidence. What we don't know is how much is down to poor coaching - specifically defensive coaching.

I also find it odd that people think they know the best route for coaches to take to become successful or good coaches, when there are a
ton of examples of players moving straight into high level coaching and doing well.

First point, true. Maybe the team are coached fine but when they step on the field it goes to pot. To be fair, you must admit that is unlikely. You have a team conceding the points we do, you have to look at the defensive coach.

The second point I agree, until a player steps up there will be uncertainty. My point involved the whole coaching set up. The decline that set in under COS and continued as we basically kept the same personnel. We desperately needed a fresh input, new set up to shake it up. We didn't and we are seeing the results (no change). I would love us to prove me wrong, I just can't see it .

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Greene King (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 19:23
I've been watching the forum for a while and haven't stuck my head above the trench for fear of taking a bullet to the skull.

I have recently undertaken an extensive piece of academic research examining the leadership and management styles of DOR's/coaches and the on pitch performance of players.As the research is currently being prepared for publication I am limited to some of the precise details but I am happy to share some of the key findings, for interest.

During the research I was fortunate to speak and interview members of the RFU development team, DOR's. coaching staff and players from across the entire rugby community, including
the premiership. The aim was to examine on pitch performance to evaluate if it is affected by those at the top.

In short there is a direct and indirect affect on match day performance from the leadership and management style of the DOR and coaching team. A major player in team performance is the psychologist who indirectly affects the DOR and coaching team, who in turn influence team and individual performance.

Players must be able to think tactically during a match yet many feel they are unable to do so and as a result they are restricted in how they play on the pitch.

Culture does play a huge part in the team playing for the badge rather than the pay packet.

I could go on but it is interesting to read the comments as some of the posters on her are hitting the nail on the head while others are wildly miles away.

If anyone has any questions which I may answer then fire them at me and I will see if I can help, within the constraints of the embargo I have on the research pending publishing



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 19:24
QP & HT. I really dont know if Easter is the right answer or not. Do you? He inherited a very down & out defense after COS announced his departure, & the first half of last season was really poor, but we did improve a lot towards the end. Has the arrival of Smith upset the plan, as its perhaps taking an extra player to cover him?? Hence the defence being one man short out wide & the apparent tactics of just going for it on attack? 10 years ago it seemed the answer was to get someone in from Rugby League to sort out a porous defence, not sure that works anymore. Easter could be doing as well as anyone else would do given the injuries & suspensions. Genuinely have no idea who could do better, hence my earlier question.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 19:43
Fair enough. As I have said before, I just say it how I see it. I get the point re Smith, but our defence has been abysmal. I cant actually see what the plan is.. Its difficult to understand where something is going wrong if you have no idea what is right. In answer to is he the man, based on the points against and our general defence I would have to say it seems not.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 20:07
Sounds like we need to get our coaching staff booked into Psychology school. Thanks for your post GK, was your research in Rugby alone or with other sports?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
mccc (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 20:10
Quote:
Quins Lad
And who would have had a big say in his appointment? John Kingston. Players like Brown, Care, Robbo and Marler are half the players they were under COS. Let's not forget, COS won the league with a similar squad in terms of talent...just shows what a can happen with a decent coach.

Well guess who was head coach when we won the league. It certainly was not Connor o shea.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Greene King (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 20:14
AQ,
The research focused on rugby union but I did look at existing research from other sports including football. Their are similarities with other sports but I found a new finding relating to the effect of changing a team manager.

If you change your manager there is an initial improvement in performance followed by a return to the former level of performance. There are several reasons why this may be including players wanting to impress the new boss.

There is one anomaly that is Eddie Jones who has consistent results, but he is head coach not DOR.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 20:38
I struggle to see what our D system is. As we are quite often loaded in midfield leaving huge overlaps, sometimes it works ok when we catch it with drift or scramble defence. More often than not our wingers are covering 2-3 men.

At others times we seem to try out to in but miss a first up tackle and again rely on scramble D.

If anyone has spotted what we are trying to do please explain.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
29 October, 2017 21:33
Never wanted him as a coach.

Wish hed gone somewhere else then come back.

Hes one of the lads, especially for the England lot, and CoS created a dysfunctional dressing room where they could do what they wanted and had all the power.

Now theyve got their mate as a coach. We need someone without cosy familiarity.

Im convinced its at the root of all our bad performances.

Flatman said tonight that our communication looks terrible and it looks like 15 individuals playing for themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/10/2017 21:36 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 07:22
If we are 15 guys doing their own thing this shines a light on lack of trust in the squad. Strong defensive teams rely on a collective effort....summed up as I do my job in the line as I know the guy on my left and right will do theirs within the agreed plan.

The comment above that the coaches plan cant possibly go out the window when the players get on the pitch IMHO is exactly whats happening. So the guys dont have trust in each other and this was evident on Saturday when we conceded 6 tries almost blowing a healthy lead.

Their 10 was allowed to run on too many occasions. The coaches should have highlighted this and got the message on and adjusted the defensive plan to shut him down. Or the on field leaders should have made the adjustment. We hear about defensive captains in teams who is ours. Is it Jamie?

Ok to have a basic defensive plan but in play adjustments need to be used to cope with how the opposition play. Their 10 is new to the premiership and maybe an unknown quantity so it was unlikely he would be like Heathcote etc.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 07:58
FWIW, I think some have been too quick to blame coaching staff when some of the problem is on the pitch. While the coaching staff have to direct and encourage, the players have to implement those instructions and react to whats on the pitch. Whats killing Quins is inconsistency - weve already seen great (Wasps away in league) and poor (Wasps away on Europe). And for last three seasons our squad has been disrupted by England selection, injury and now, discipline. Correcting this inconsistency is a collective issue, not solely the coaches.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
GP2110 (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 08:52
Quote:
blucherquin
Never wanted him as a coach.
Wish hed gone somewhere else then come back.

Hes one of the lads, especially for the England lot, and CoS created a dysfunctional dressing room where they could do what they wanted and had all the power.

Now theyve got their mate as a coach. We need someone without cosy familiarity.

Im convinced its at the root of all our bad performances.

Flatman said tonight that our communication looks terrible and it looks like 15 individuals playing for themselves.

Completely agree with this. There needs to be a bigger separation between player and coach. I'm constantly seeing pictures on twitter of NE and NeV on golf days / drinks / dinners with the players. Whilst that's all well and good, I think it makes it much harder for the coaches to stamp authority down at the training ground. It's great having ex-players involved, but I would have much preferred a few years' gap so that when they start coaching (at quins - happy for them to learn their trade elsewhere) it's (in the most part) a different squad of players to the ones that they played with.

The defence has been a shambles this season and last. As much as I loved NE as a player, he has to go at the end of the season if things don't improve. For me, a proper defensive coach is far more likely to help quins turn the corner than a new DoR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/10/2017 08:57 by GP2110.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 09:11
Quote:
GP2110
Quote:
blucherquin
Never wanted him as a coach.
Wish hed gone somewhere else then come back.

Hes one of the lads, especially for the England lot, and CoS created a dysfunctional dressing room where they could do what they wanted and had all the power.

Now theyve got their mate as a coach. We need someone without cosy familiarity.

Im convinced its at the root of all our bad performances.

Flatman said tonight that our communication looks terrible and it looks like 15 individuals playing for themselves.

Completely agree with this. There needs to be a bigger separation between player and coach. I'm constantly seeing pictures on twitter of NE and NeV on golf days / drinks / dinners with the players. Whilst that's all well and good, I think it makes it much harder for the coaches to stamp authority down at the training ground. It's great having ex-players involved, but I would have much preferred a few years' gap so that when they start coaching it's (in the most part) a different squad of players to the ones that they played with.

The defence has been a shambles this season and last. As much as I loved NE as a player, he has to go at the end of the season if things don't improve. For me, a proper defensive coach is far more likely to help quins turn the corner than a new DoR

Agreed and I don't think this is just a problem with Easter and Evans.

Almost all of the coaching staff have now been there for years, and it must have got to the point where there's very little new that they can say.

Whilst that level of familiarity would be great if it was breeding good results, since 2011 we've been in fairly steep decline (or decline and then stasis) so to just keep plugging on with the same men involved, with the same ideas, and then promoting from within (using people who largely only know their coaching from the existing coaches) just seems an exercise in futility if we want to improve.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Cookie (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 10:24
Find it hilarious that you can't suggest someone isn't doing a good job without being able to name a list of possible replacements.

Can anyone name any defensive coaches other than Gustard?? Saying something isn't good doesn't require you to submit a succession plan. Same thing with DOR/Head Coach, although that's slightly easier as I proved in another thread.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 10:28
We need Stuart Lancaster.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
PQ2 (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 10:42
- Rather than lopping off heads with gay abandon, is there scope here to do what 'industry' would, i.e, get in a consultant?

- Are there defensive experts out there whom could be taken on for a limited period & leave the present incumbents more enlightened going forward?

- I confess I don't have a ready-made list of freelance options (-can only think of Venter, offhand); Of course, a necessary prerequisite from said 'present incumbents' would need to be an open, receptive mind to the move.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 10:58
Quote:
PQ2
- Rather than lopping off heads with gay abandon, is there scope here to do what 'industry' would, i.e, get in a consultant?
- Are there defensive experts out there whom could be taken on for a limited period & leave the present incumbents more enlightened going forward?

- I confess I don't have a ready-made list of freelance options (-can only think of Venter, offhand); Of course, a necessary prerequisite from said 'present incumbents' would need to be an open, receptive mind to the move.

Not a bad idea actually. I think it would help both the NEs if they had a more experienced coach to learn from in the first instance.

I wonder if that ship has now sailed though.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 12:27
Quote:
Cookie
Find it hilarious that you can't suggest someone isn't doing a good job without being able to name a list of possible replacements.
Can anyone name any defensive coaches other than Gustard?? Saying something isn't good doesn't require you to submit a succession plan. Same thing with DOR/Head Coach, although that's slightly easier as I proved in another thread.

I didnt say get rid of him now - I said I never wanted him as a coach. Now its too late unless we can find someone else. But our defence is abysmal - and I think its Easters fault

 
Re: Why not NE out?
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 12:47
Quote:
PQ2
- Rather than lopping off heads with gay abandon, is there scope here to do what 'industry' would, i.e, get in a consultant?
- Are there defensive experts out there whom could be taken on for a limited period & leave the present incumbents more enlightened going forward?

- I confess I don't have a ready-made list of freelance options (-can only think of Venter, offhand); Of course, a necessary prerequisite from said 'present incumbents' would need to be an open, receptive mind to the move.


If Venter is an expert what would some say was about his defence when SA were embarrassed by over 50 by the ABs last month?

I watched our A league vs Sarries(on paper stronger) yesterday and our defence looked good and their reknowned defence porous.

The game is a funny one to judge this season with a lot more tries and our injury rate hasn't helped.

I agree with earlier comments that there seems to be a rot from the Conor days and the players involved are still a strong voice(playing or coaching). How many of the players yesterday were a big part of Conor's regime? Tim Swiel & Ross Chisholm briefly but never a regular starter and can't think of anyone else excluding academy players who I would imagine wouldn't have had as much involvement.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 13:07
Quote:
TitusQuin
If Venter is an expert what would some say was about his defence when SA were embarrassed by over 50 by the ABs last month?

He's also defence coach of Italy and LI...(Sm124)

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Boonie (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 14:16
It's been said already, but going from player to coach cannot be a simple transition. I'd much rather have sent NE out to "do the knowledge" maybe in ND1 for a while, or alternatively, if affordable, get an established defence coach in and have them mentor NE with a view to him taking over at some point. Given where we are, maybe a consultant defence coach is the next best thing if we are to keep NE in his role. A fresh pair of eyes seems to be needed if we are to achieve any kind of consistency.



Unless of course this is all part of a cunning plan to gift Wuss enough points that they leapfrog LI come the end of the season! winking smiley



"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 14:46
A foul-up on the posting front!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/10/2017 16:17 by QuickerQuin.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 14:48
I think we have relied far too much on former players to be good coaches.

Nick Easter, Nick Evans, Adam Jones, Tony Diprose, Tom Williams, it doesn't very often work. Martin Johnson, anyone?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 14:53
Oh hold on, wasn't Clive Woodward a player for Harlequins before going on to ... ??

 
Re: Why not NE out?
DOK (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 16:59
Was MJ a coach? He was kind of a DOR wasn't he?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
ssdudley (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 17:02
Quote:
Uncle Arthur
Oh hold on, wasn't Clive Woodward a player for Harlequins before going on to ... ??


Yes, but he started his coaching at Henley, then London Irish, then Bath.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Uncle Arthur (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 19:46
On reflection you are correct. I apologise for the positive post.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
never sleep (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 20:29
Quote:
QuickerQuin
I think we have relied far too much on former players to be good coaches.
Nick Easter, Nick Evans, Adam Jones, Tony Diprose, Tom Williams, it doesn't very often work. Martin Johnson, anyone?

I'm not sure I agree here. Tom Williams is seen as good enough to coach England u20 and is doing a good job with the a team and we seem to be scoring well with Nick Evans.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
godzilla73 (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 20:55
This may have been mentioned before, but both Nicks spent the last two/three years coaching Wimbledon and saw them up from Nat 3 to Nat 2 I believe. Not quite the same as Champ or N1 I agree, but the side was good enough to see some of their team picked up by Rosslyn Park and Ealing.
Interestingly though, I personally saw two games in that promotion season in which the Wimbledon defence crumbled against lesser opposition, so perhaps there is a connection there.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
30 October, 2017 21:54
Quote:
godzilla73
This may have been mentioned before, but both Nicks spent the last two/three years coaching Wimbledon and saw them up from Nat 3 to Nat 2 I believe. Not quite the same as Champ or N1 I agree, but the side was good enough to see some of their team picked up by Rosslyn Park and Ealing.
Interestingly though, I personally saw two games in that promotion season in which the Wimbledon defence crumbled against lesser opposition, so perhaps there is a connection there.

Well done to Wimbledon for getting promotion. I wonder how much of that better play was due to word going round that Nick Evans and Nick Easter are coaching at Wimbledon.

That fact on its own would have attracted a number of better class players.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
poorfour (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 06:59
I am worried about the defensive system - it just isn't working consistently, and sooner or later that is something that Easter has to fix or someone else has to be brought in.

Must admit that I am somewhat bemused that Evans is being tarred with the same brush, though. Our attack looks to be in pretty good shape considering it's being run by an 18 year old. We probably need to see what Catrakilis can do before reaching a conclusion, but it's hard to argue that our tyro Attack Coach isn't doing a good job based on what we've seen so far.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
West Stand Quin (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 07:17
Have a good mate at Wimbledon RFC who really rated Nick Evans as a coach and aid also impressed with Joe Gray & JTH who are in charge now. Hes not very positive about what Nick Easter contributed

 
Re: Why not NE out?
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 07:40
Well wuite. Surely it's possible that some players make good coaches and some don't?

 
Re: Why not NE out?
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 08:57
Quote:
poorfour
I am worried about the defensive system - it just isn't working consistently, and sooner or later that is something that Easter has to fix or someone else has to be brought in.
Must admit that I am somewhat bemused that Evans is being tarred with the same brush, though. Our attack looks to be in pretty good shape considering it's being run by an 18 year old. We probably need to see what Catrakilis can do before reaching a conclusion, but it's hard to argue that our tyro Attack Coach isn't doing a good job based on what we've seen so far.

Fair point about Evans.

I'm still not sure that promoting from within a slightly broken system is a very good way of progressing, but so far since Evans came in as a coach we've been a better attacking force than we were last season.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
blucherquin (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 09:40
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
poorfour
I am worried about the defensive system - it just isn't working consistently, and sooner or later that is something that Easter has to fix or someone else has to be brought in.
Must admit that I am somewhat bemused that Evans is being tarred with the same brush, though. Our attack looks to be in pretty good shape considering it's being run by an 18 year old. We probably need to see what Catrakilis can do before reaching a conclusion, but it's hard to argue that our tyro Attack Coach isn't doing a good job based on what we've seen so far.

Fair point about Evans.

I'm still not sure that promoting from within a slightly broken system is a very good way of progressing, but so far since Evans came in as a coach we've been a better attacking force than we were last season.

I imagine Evans is very good - hes always come across as thoughtful and authoritative. Plus being an AB he came in with the respect of other players even if they were nearly his contemporaries.

My problem with Easter is what made him such a good team player - hes a lad - and I cant see that working when youre meant to be the boss.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 09:47
The way I see it

NEV - Probably the best Quin I have ever seen. On his day he could tear sides apart. When he was announced as Attack Coach I thought it could work, I understood why it may have been done

Williams - Probably one of the smartest rugby brains I have seen at Quins. Read the game well. Left us to play/coach at Esher (think he may still be involved there also). having him involved at Quins makes sense as I believe he could go on to be a very good coach.

Easter - as great a player he was, announced as defence coach and I was left scratching my head a bit (unlike the two above). Did not seem a natural/automatic move. More a case of finding a job for him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/10/2017 10:08 by HonkyTonk.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 10:03
Easter played with instinct - not sure he knows how to best export/explain that.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
DOK (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 12:00
Easter on TV is pretty clear about defensive stuff, what's happening, where people should be etc... Been impressed with him there. Flats said it was more we weren't communicating on the pitch, ensuring people knew who would tackle, who would stand off. He said there are no hugely complicated defence lines run, because everyone is super tired at the end of a game its got to be simple. So I'm hoping the last game (which we won by the way!) is just an aberration and the coaches (and the players!) can fix the problems before the next one.

 
Re: Why not NE out?
Cookie (IP Logged)
31 October, 2017 12:17
Quote:
DOK
Easter on TV is pretty clear about defensive stuff, what's happening, where people should be etc... Been impressed with him there. Flats said it was more we weren't communicating on the pitch, ensuring people knew who would tackle, who would stand off. He said there are no hugely complicated defence lines run, because everyone is super tired at the end of a game its got to be simple. So I'm hoping the last game (which we won by the way!) is just an aberration and the coaches (and the players!) can fix the problems before the next one.

Hmmmm.......I'm sure I've read this book before (Sm100)

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