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Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
akb1 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:12
Email received this evening.

As a valued Member of the Club, I would like to take this opportunity to let you know that Harlequins has confirmed the appointment of a professional team with the brief to develop a concept which imagines a new and improved Stoop at the forefront of the community, with the goal of making a positive social, cultural and economic impact on the local area.

Harlequins has been proud to call Twickenham, Richmond and London our home for over a century, but it is important to remember that our purpose is not just about the rugby, but about the wider community.

During the 54 years we have called The Stoop home, the Club has positively contributed to the Borough in a number of areas and created arguably the best Premiership Rugby stadium in London. It is really important to us as a club that we take a lead in the local community, which is why we place such an emphasis on The Harlequins Foundation and the positive work it does in the Borough and London as a whole.

As our role in the community has grown so has our membership and supporter base, with nearly 10,000 members and a 98% stadium capacity throughout the season. To allow us to continue our positive contribution to the Borough and London, we have now reached the point where we have to co-create a new, state-of-the-art Stadium, with accessible to all facilities. The emerging concept could place The Stoop firmly at the centre of the local community for another 100 years, creating a fantastic new destination to work, play and live.

We are committed to being open and transparent on our ideas as we begin our journey, so we need to go and talk to lots of people. Starting in the New Year, we will be embarking on a period of consultation with our existing strong networks of schools, resident and business groups, community clubs and other interested parties to discuss our concept and listen to their views.

Leading masterplanners and sports architects, Populous, have been appointed alongside a specialist team to take forward the project.

We have recently begun work with the team and will be engaging with Richmond Borough Council and the Greater London Authority over the coming months.

The Club will be engaging with the local community and key stakeholders in early 2018, to share our ideas, listen to views on the emerging ideas and ultimately co-create a vision. These events will be open to you and we will share dates once they have been confirmed.

In the meantime if you have any specific questions, we encourage you to email vision@quins.co.uk

Kind regards

David Ellis

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
poorfour (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:19
I'm not normally critical of management's communication, and I am pretty good at English, but I found this almost impossible to make sense of.

I think it says:
- We need to make the Stoop bigger
- We don't want to upset the neighbours
- We've hired some architects called Populous
- If you've got any questions, here's an email address.

But I can't be sure. Someone definitely had a bad day at the typewriter.

I'm tempted to use the email to ask if I can have a translation into English.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Stooperman (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:37
I'm not seeing the same as you Poorfour,

The Stoop is to be at the heart of the community as a place to WORK, PLAY & LIVE. Doesn't say anything about playing rugby.


I've suspected ever since that far eastern pension company took a stake that this is the plan. A hugely valuable piece of London Real Estate to be converted into some kind of flats/business park/hotel complex. They may well rebuild the stadium on The Rosebine, or maybe somewhere in Sunbury. But I think the wording looks very suspicious.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
23 November, 2017 21:39
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:45
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

Give up on the hysteria... we aren’t going anywhere,

“we have now reached the point where we have to co-create a new, state-of-the-art Stadium, with accessible to all facilities. The emerging concept could place The Stoop firmly at the centre of the local community for another 100 years, creating a fantastic new destination to work, play and live”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/11/2017 21:47 by Safri-quin.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:52
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

#fakenews

No we're not, we're going to rebuild the stadium but probably have to play somewhere else while it's done. The new one will be more like a new football stadium with retail and community facilities, housing etc. That's what it means.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Stooperman (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:52
Quote:
Safri-quin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

Give up on the hysteria... we aren’t going anywhere,

“we have now reached the point where we have to co-create a new, state-of-the-art Stadium, with accessible to all facilities. The emerging concept could place The Stoop firmly at the centre of the local community for another 100 years, creating a fantastic new destination to work, play and live”

Safri,

You are clearly not a lawyer, or somebody who has had to work with lawyers on contracts. Read EXACTLY what it says, not what you think or hope it says. The Stoop, & the state of the art stadium are not necessarily one and the same. This degree of separation is either a deliberate construct drawn up in consultation with lawyers, or David Ellis is a blithering idiot. Its possible that both things are true.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 21:52
We’re moving.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
akb1 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:00
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

#fakenews

No we're not, we're going to rebuild the stadium but probably have to play somewhere else while it's done. The new one will be more like a new football stadium with retail and community facilities, housing etc. That's what it means.
Yep that's how I read it.
Anyone know of a stadium close by that we could potentially use?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
SiBolton (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:04
Expanding the ground, by moving whole pitch to the south as buying up council yard

Home fixtures to be played at the Big Stoop, and At Brentford when international are on

Wetherspoons new sponsor and will do all food and beer

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:05
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
Safri-quin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

Give up on the hysteria... we aren’t going anywhere,

“we have now reached the point where we have to co-create a new, state-of-the-art Stadium, with accessible to all facilities. The emerging concept could place The Stoop firmly at the centre of the local community for another 100 years, creating a fantastic new destination to work, play and live”

Safri,

You are clearly not a lawyer, or somebody who has had to work with lawyers on contracts. Read EXACTLY what it says, not what you think or hope it says. The Stoop, & the state of the art stadium are not necessarily one and the same. This degree of separation is either a deliberate construct drawn up in consultation with lawyers, or David Ellis is a blithering idiot. Its possible that both things are true.

"the brief to develop a concept which imagines a new and improved Stoop at the forefront of the community, with the goal of making a positive social, cultural and economic impact on the local area."

i've watched enough Law & Order and LA Law and This Life to know they really don't mean that we're going to leave the Stoop but somehow also get lumbered with having to pay for it to become a community centre.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Harley Quin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:10
So, are you speculating or do you know this to be the proposal?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:15
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
Safri-quin
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Read it exactly the same way....We are moving folks, pack your bags!!!

Give up on the hysteria... we aren’t going anywhere,

“we have now reached the point where we have to co-create a new, state-of-the-art Stadium, with accessible to all facilities. The emerging concept could place The Stoop firmly at the centre of the local community for another 100 years, creating a fantastic new destination to work, play and live”

Safri,

You are clearly not a lawyer, or somebody who has had to work with lawyers on contracts. Read EXACTLY what it says, not what you think or hope it says. The Stoop, & the state of the art stadium are not necessarily one and the same. This degree of separation is either a deliberate construct drawn up in consultation with lawyers, or David Ellis is a blithering idiot. Its possible that both things are true.

Not getting into a cyclical argument with you, but, you are wrong, about my exposure to & ability to decipher legal documents as part of my day job...

Email David Ellis, ask him, “Is the plan to sell up the Stoop and move the stadium away from its current location”, and please come back and let me know his reply...

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:39
As one of the posters on here who the JK Brigade like to paint as anti the club, I’d like to distance myself from those who have read doom and further doom into that email.

Nothing suggests we are moving or doing anything sinister. It literally says The Stoop will be at the heart of anything.

To read anything else into it is to be deliberately negative.

What I would say is that as a statement it says absolutely nothing at all.

It basically says we’re thinking about stuff and let us know what you think. Other than that it’s pretty meaningless.

So calm down on both sides those who seek to defend the club when they kill puppies and those who hate the club when they save kittens.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Stooperman (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:25
Quote:
Safri-quin

Not getting into a cyclical argument with you, but, you are wrong, about my exposure to & ability to decipher legal documents as part of my day job...

Email David Ellis, ask him, “Is the plan to sell up the Stoop and move the stadium away from its current location”, and please come back and let me know his reply...

Yeah I realise my comment might have seemed a tad aggressive there. sorry, the internet is not a good way to communicate sometimes.

On to your next question. "Is the plan to sell up The Stoop & move the stadium away from its current location". That question would certainly elicit the answer no, again back to lawyerliness, but e.g. demolishing The Stoop and building flats on it whilst rataining ownership of a patch of land know as The Stoop works, moving the team to a stadium in Nepal still elicits the answer no to the above question because the stadium has not been moved, selling the land for a supermarket and playing out of a shed in Ilfracombe still elicits the answer no, because the stadium has not moved from its current location.

Anyway, Its probably going to take a couple of years of consultation so lets not sweat about it right now.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:44
Quote:
Prophets of doom
...And the bezan shall be huge and black, and the eyes thereof red with the blood of living creatures, and the @#$%& of Babylon shall ride forth on a three-headed serpent, and throughout the lands, there'll be a great rubbing of parts. Yeeah...

For the demon shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed! Not two or five or seven, but nine, which he will wield on all wretched sinners, sinners just like you, sir, there, and the horns shall be on the head, with which he will...

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 22:50
Quote:
Ellis et al
Leading masterplanners and sports architects, Populous, have been appointed alongside a specialist team...

They won't come cheap, which may explain why they haven't replaced injured players when they could/should have...

(unless they had to - when we had no SH left)

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 23:04
Maybe someone at Populous is a handy second row??

I read the above as the Stoop as we know it will cease, being replaced with a new Stoop which includes retail, dinning and/or hotel facilities that will benefit the area and the club. Guess we will end up at HQ for some if not all of the building process

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
raedarius (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 00:12
Quote:
David Ellis
arguably the best Premiership Rugby stadium in London

Certainly in the top two...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/11/2017 00:21 by raedarius.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
24 November, 2017 06:28
The first paragraph is total nonsense.

There is a theory that if you gave enough monkeys typewriters, randomly hitting keys one of them would produce the complete works of Shakespeare.

On this evidence the same could not be said of Quins PR department......

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Robertquin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 06:39
I'm a great believer in saying what you mean and as concisely as possible. It's great they want to share this news but it would have been better in plain English so we can understand what they have in mind.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
PeterboroughQuin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 06:46
Quins moving to Peterborough. Get in there!!

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
akb1 (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 06:47
Now also posted on Quins website
[www.quins.co.uk]

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
QuinGeorgeVII (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 06:50

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 06:53
A bit like the injury updates, get more info elsewhere!!!

Wonder what other sports the club are thinking about, hope we don't end up with a running track!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/11/2017 06:57 by HonkyTonk.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:02
Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

Those lawyers are in trouble.

I think we can all agree that whatever David Ellis meant, the Comms department turned it into low grade PR speak nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/11/2017 07:38 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:21
Quote:
blucherquin

Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

.

I think Richmond council and the local residents might have something to say about that.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:27
Quote:
QuinGeorgeVII
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/harlequins-to-rebuild-twickenham-stoop-with-25-000-capacity-wgbpgqb3c

“.. a new multi-sport facility, with strong consideration being given to an artificial pitch to ensure that it can be used all year”

I hope they don’t put a plastic pitch down. I‘m sure it’s commercially very attractive (cuts the groundsman’s staff to nil), but nobody really wants to play on it. A hybrid pitch (Big Stoop grass-and-plastic) is of course far and away the best surface, but costs the most to put down, I believe, and saves nothing in maintenance.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:27
Quote:
QuinGeorgeVII
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/harlequins-to-rebuild-twickenham-stoop-with-25-000-capacity-wgbpgqb3c

Why restore the running track? Take the opportunity to make the pitch larger.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:31
Maybe they intend the running track to be used??

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:34
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
QuinGeorgeVII
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/harlequins-to-rebuild-twickenham-stoop-with-25-000-capacity-wgbpgqb3c

Why restore the running track? Take the opportunity to make the pitch larger.

We know from Allianz Park what you get when you squeeze a rugby pitch within a standard 400m athletics track: 5m in-goal areas. Together with the plastic grass, it’s the end of the grubber in behind from 10 yards out.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:39
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Ellis et al
Leading masterplanners and sports architects, Populous, have been appointed alongside a specialist team...

They won't come cheap, which may explain why they haven't replaced injured players when they could/should have...

(unless they had to - when we had no SH left)

Totally different budget

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:42
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Maybe they intend the running track to be used??

Maybe. Which would be a terrible idea. Let's stick to rugby. Stick a sports centre elsewhere.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:43
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
blucherquin

Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

.

I think Richmond council and the local residents might have something to say about that.

Yes, that's exactly what happens.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Safri-quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:43
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
blucherquin

Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

.

I think Richmond council and the local residents might have something to say about that.

Pretty sure the water was tested before even considering something like this...

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
HarleyQuinn (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:52
Do none of you understand they actually can’t state much at the moment because of seeking planning permission?

Where does it say we are moving?
It talks about longterm vision.

Do you think any business would want to leave London? Wasps only left because they didn’t have a home and they still only exist due to an owner ploughing in money - they are not sustainable.

Ellis came from a property background. This was always the long term plan. They have hired the best planners in the UK who have done all the football stadiums. Who will give us the best stadium. They brought in the Team GB Comms guy. Who probably gave the Times what they know. They have put all the ducks in a row.

You all moan about no big names. But if a business has been at 98% capacity for the last 10 years, how can it increase profits? Something had to change.

I can’t believe how negative so called fans are on here!

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
DOK (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 08:04
The management speak always amuses me. Of course I didn't get the email (despite hassling them at the start of the season to put me on the communications email list)- presumably I'm not a valued member!

Anyway, despite telling us what they're going to do - I don't see any mention of consulting with the supporters. Yes, they'll have events we can attend, and perhaps we come under "key stakeholders" but honestly - it would be nice if we were recognised as a separate group that might have some input! smiling smiley

Of course we weren't allowed much input into the West Stand replacement when that happened, we managed to get a higher viewing platform for disabled fans was our only success there!

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 08:07
Based on the Times piece being right, I'm guessing part of the deal with the council involves taking over area directly to the south. That could be a sweetener to the local residents, removing the seagull population from the area, while also reducing the number of houses that are "overlooked" by large stands.

If the plan really is to go to 25k capacity, I can't see it working on the current footprint. Move the pitch south 50m or so, and rotate through 90 degrees, so that the long stands are more aligned West to East. It would probably encroach a bit onto the playing field in Craneford way, but that would be a trade-off for a community area where the current stadium sits.
The new North Stand can be dual aspect, with seats looking over the old running track that would be uncovered. You could also still have smaller stands in the place of where the existing IG & DHL stands are now. Hotel /conference facilities in the new stadium blocks.

Where would we play while it's being built? Big Stoop. Brentford is out, as that's already going to be converted into housing as part of Brentford's move to the Lionel Road Stadium. Could we play in Lionel Road? Yes, but that would be difficult with LI lined up as tenants already, so I doubt it would work. As for International clashes & the Big Stoop, we already move games because of clashes. The only thing that would need to be considered is cleaning the stadium after a game. We'd probably be asked to play on Friday nights for any clashes rather than a Sunday (It's easier to clear up overnight after a 15k-20k crowd than the 80k+ of a Saturday International crowd).

A lot will depend on the local residents. The council will have already been discussing this with the club, as will other partners like the College, the School, etc. If it can be sold to the residents, then I guess we'd be looking at start of building after the end of the 18/19 season at the earliest (the time taken for permissions, plans being approved, revised, approved again, etc.)

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
HarleyQuinn (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 08:11
Quote:
DOK

Anyway, despite telling us what they're going to do - I don't see any mention of consulting with the supporters. Yes, they'll have events we can attend, and perhaps we come under "key stakeholders" but honestly - it would be nice if we were recognised as a separate group that might have some input! smiling smiley

Jesus...what do you want, Ellis to come to your house? Supporters are key stake holders! It specifically mentions supporters attending first!

Nothing has happened yet and already you’re acting like someone’s pi55ed on your cornflakes.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 08:11
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Ellis et al
Leading masterplanners and sports architects, Populous, have been appointed alongside a specialist team...

They won't come cheap, which may explain why they haven't replaced injured players when they could/should have...

(unless they had to - when we had no SH left)

Totally different budget

DIfferent budget, same coffer. I refer the honourable gentleman to the previous 9 years of Conservative austerity...

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
PeterboroughQuin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 09:14
We can play all our home games first at the start of the season then they can start knocking down and rebuilding The Stoop while we play our away games. They then should be finished by the time the next season comes around.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 09:39
I would imagine that to leverage more of the Jillings' cash (dare I/we presume they will pay?) they would demand something more than rugby, to give them year-round walk-in revenue.

Would prefer Twickenham-style "grass" and if running track encroaches on pitch, then no to that.

Otherwise, I cant imagine what there is to dislike? Ok, the letter is a bit corporate, but it really isn't hard to understand, unless you set out with the idea that it will be.

I wonder whether that Quins bond issue (or whatever it was called) was/is being used to finance the planning/design of this?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
TheGP (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 10:10
We struggle to fill the stadium now. Hope ticket prices stay reasonable

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 10:12
Quote:
Safri-quin
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
blucherquin

Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

.

I think Richmond council and the local residents might have something to say about that.

Pretty sure the water was tested before even considering something like this...

Of course, which is why we have the usual flannel about community etc.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 10:17
Quote:
David Ellis
As a valued Member of the Club, I would like to take this opportunity to let you know that Harlequins has confirmed the appointment of a professional team with the brief to develop a concept which imagines a new and improved Stoop at the forefront of the community, with the goal of making a positive social, cultural and economic impact on the local area.

I think if you read this closely we're all getting far too worried.

All Ellis is doing is 'developing a concept which imagines a new and improved Stoop'.

So he doesn't want to build it. He just wants to imagine it.

Quite why he needs a professional team to help him imagine stuff I don't know, and I'd argue that a new centre and lock would be better uses of this imagination fund, but I think we can all rest easy until we get beyond imagination land.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 11:17
Quote:
MrOther
We’re moving.

In the light of subsequent (wiser and calmer) postings, I withdraw this comment.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
T-Bone (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 11:21
No to athletics track. No to plastic pitch. Players don't like plastic pitch, but the benefits are pretty clear, so imagine most clubs will go that way soon enough anyway, regardless of redevelopment.

I really hate the marketing, PR comms type speak. It doesn't mean anything. Just write in plain English. As for those saying this is classic lawyer speak trying to confuse people, as a lawyer myself I resent that - we use Latin for that purpose!

Also, is HarleyQuinn Ellis or a Populous employee?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
blucherquin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 11:21
Much as I hate artificial pitches - I can’t see us going any other way. Means it can earn money all year.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
T-Bone (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 11:35
Quote:
blucherquin
Much as I hate artificial pitches - I can’t see us going any other way. Means it can earn money all year.

Exactly. Will be interested to see studies in ten years time or so though to see if there is any long term detrimental effect to the players. I know some of our players say on twitter that it takes them longer to recover after a game at the Allianz or Newcastle.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:20
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
blucherquin

Right, so we're building a bigger Stoop on the site of the Stoop.

.

I think Richmond council and the local residents might have something to say about that.

Which is precisely the point of the process is it not?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:22
Quote:
Also, is HarleyQuinn Ellis or a Populous employee?

Or someone who just reads in disbelief the cack that some people come out with.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:23
Quote:
MrOther
Quote:
QuinGeorgeVII
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/harlequins-to-rebuild-twickenham-stoop-with-25-000-capacity-wgbpgqb3c

“.. a new multi-sport facility, with strong consideration being given to an artificial pitch to ensure that it can be used all year”

I hope they don’t put a plastic pitch down. I‘m sure it’s commercially very attractive (cuts the groundsman’s staff to nil), but nobody really wants to play on it. A hybrid pitch (Big Stoop grass-and-plastic) is of course far and away the best surface, but costs the most to put down, I believe, and saves nothing in maintenance.

I have spoken to JK on a couple of occasions and know that he is totally against them.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:34
Maybe we'll have a temporary move to the Madejski in Reading, since LI won't be there?

That would be nice, as it's a lot closer for me! But I don't know when their redevelopment is due to start.

One other issue, regarding developing the existing site - presumably there will be a need for much more parking too?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:37
Quote:
Bedfordshire Boy
Quote:
MrOther
Quote:
QuinGeorgeVII
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/harlequins-to-rebuild-twickenham-stoop-with-25-000-capacity-wgbpgqb3c

“.. a new multi-sport facility, with strong consideration being given to an artificial pitch to ensure that it can be used all year”

I hope they don’t put a plastic pitch down. I‘m sure it’s commercially very attractive (cuts the groundsman’s staff to nil), but nobody really wants to play on it. A hybrid pitch (Big Stoop grass-and-plastic) is of course far and away the best surface, but costs the most to put down, I believe, and saves nothing in maintenance.

I have spoken to JK on a couple of occasions and know that he is totally against them.

JK in!

Hybrid far and away the best option, Big Stoop, Lansdowne Road, Murrayfield, Newlands, Dunedin, Wembley ...

all from Desso Sports Systems apparently. Desso don't list Murrayfield on their site but at the time Scottish Rugby announced that it was putting down a Desso hybrid pitch.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
TW Quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:43
What a very poor email to send out. How much do the clubs spin masters get paid and clear as mud. Much more in the Times.

Plastic pitch and they want to uncover the old running track.

Underwhelmed by David Ellis using the Stoop as his own Lego set.

Probably designed to cement him in his job for the next decade.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 12:49
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Maybe we'll have a temporary move to the Madejski in Reading, since LI won't be there?
That would be nice, as it's a lot closer for me! But I don't know when their redevelopment is due to start.

One other issue, regarding developing the existing site - presumably there will be a need for much more parking too?

Lionel Road isn't going to be in use before 2020/21 according to the current schedule. I can't see the club wanting to re-locate (even temporarily) all the way out in Reading. Far more likely that we'll come to an arrangement with the RFU to use Twickenham Stadium (no doubt at the cost of taking part as a home team in the LDH as well as having to split some costs like stewarding, etc).

For all the concerns about clashing with Internationals, I think that's overstated. At most there are 7 International games a season we could clash with (plus the Army/Navy game). Some of those will be Anglo-Welsh cup games that we might be able to relocate to a smaller venue anyway. To take this season as an example, there's 5 games to worry about. This autumn, we've had one home game on the same w/e as an AI, and same during the 6N. I can easily see us having our AW game at 3pm on a Sunday after an AI game. Plenty of time to clear/clean the stadium on the Saturday evening/Sunday morning in time for our game on a Sunday afternoon.Or we can have our game on the Friday evening before the AI & again, plenty of time to get the place ready for the AI the following day. Worst comes to the worst, we have a one-off game somewhere else in London that can cope with an Anglo-Welsh sized crowd.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 13:04
Personally I love running around on artificial turfs.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 13:19
Quote:
TW Quin
What a very poor email to send out. How much do the clubs spin masters get paid and clear as mud. Much more in the Times.
Plastic pitch and they want to uncover the old running track.

Underwhelmed by David Ellis using the Stoop as his own Lego set.

Probably designed to cement him in his job for the next decade.

So how kosher is the information in The Time story, usual journalistic licence?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 13:27
Thread bookmarked.

I don't know any more than anyone else here, but given our recent reticence to splash the cash, i wouldn't be remotely surprised to see the prime land the stoop occupies developed, and the stadium moved elsewhere.

I just don't see any reason to believe that we'd pull the stadium down and rebuild something which would take years and years to recoup the investment.

Happy to be proven wrong.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 13:48
There's nowhere for a new stadium to go, though. That's what made Wasps give up trying to find anywhere within the M25 & shuffle off to Coventry, and LI had to rely on Brentford's new stadium as their years of trying to build near Sunbury came to naught. Read that Times article, and it's clear that the plan is to build at the existing ground.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:07
We'll see.

We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
poorfour (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:09
So the question is really whether the Newp will be where the Stoop is today.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:13
Quote:
RodneyRegis
We'll see.
We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

As for the last paragraph I would suggest that a running track (and an artificial pitch) might go a long way to getting planning permission on the grounds of community facilities.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:14
Quote:
poorfour
So the question is really whether the Newp will be where the Stoop is today.

Perhaps “Stew” would be more appropriate...

But I remain confident this is a plus. We may be wrong to be optimistic, but I’d rather think positively about the future rather than floating on a raft of negativity for the next few years.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:17
Quote:
RodneyRegis
We'll see.
We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

I think these are all very fair points.

The first question has to be what justification do we have for building a brand new stadium (wherever it may be) considering we currently don't sell out for most games. I suppose there's an argument that we'll keep the same sort of capacity and just modernise it if it's more about modernisation than crowd size, but you'd imagine that any new stadium would be expected to have a higher capacity.

And in terms of the financing, it would be somewhat out of the blue to splash that level of cash without significant investment from somewhere, and our recent efforts at garnering that investment were pretty poor.

Looking at the statement again, it really does seem a very mealy-mouthed way of saying, 'something might happen...but we really don't know what'.

Probably best to just take it as that for now.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:26
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
RodneyRegis
We'll see.
We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

I think these are all very fair points.

The first question has to be what justification do we have for building a brand new stadium (wherever it may be) considering we currently don't sell out for most games. I suppose there's an argument that we'll keep the same sort of capacity and just modernise it if it's more about modernisation than crowd size, but you'd imagine that any new stadium would be expected to have a higher capacity.

And in terms of the financing, it would be somewhat out of the blue to splash that level of cash without significant investment from somewhere, and our recent efforts at garnering that investment were pretty poor.

Looking at the statement again, it really does seem a very mealy-mouthed way of saying, 'something might happen...but we really don't know what'.

Probably best to just take it as that for now.

Don't you think that operating at 98% capacity across the season is a decent justification, even if we aren't actually at sellout for most games? It would clearly be easier and far more lucrative if we added (say) 5k seats to the east and west stands rather than 5k through corners and North stand redevelopment.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:41
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
RodneyRegis
We'll see.
We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

I think these are all very fair points.

The first question has to be what justification do we have for building a brand new stadium (wherever it may be) considering we currently don't sell out for most games. I suppose there's an argument that we'll keep the same sort of capacity and just modernise it if it's more about modernisation than crowd size, but you'd imagine that any new stadium would be expected to have a higher capacity.

And in terms of the financing, it would be somewhat out of the blue to splash that level of cash without significant investment from somewhere, and our recent efforts at garnering that investment were pretty poor.

Looking at the statement again, it really does seem a very mealy-mouthed way of saying, 'something might happen...but we really don't know what'.

Probably best to just take it as that for now.

Don't you think that operating at 98% capacity across the season is a decent justification, even if we aren't actually at sellout for most games? It would clearly be easier and far more lucrative if we added (say) 5k seats to the east and west stands rather than 5k through corners and North stand redevelopment.

A fair point, but either my eyes are very much deceiving me or their metric for utilisation is somewhat different to mine

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:46
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
RodneyRegis
We'll see.
We took out a loan to develop the south stand, i dont see why mosaic are suddenly going to stump up many millions to pull the whole stadium down and redevelop, especially given we rarely appear to sell out.

We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true.

Rather than shouting down the doubters, perhaps somebody could explain how such a move as ripping down the stadium and rebuilding along with hotels, helipads and casinos would be financed. Surely more feasible to replace the north stand and join the corners, which would surely be an easier way to reach 25k.

I'm not sure the times article is worthy of any sort of respect. Who on god's green earth would anybody consider restoring the utterly redundant running track?

I think these are all very fair points.

The first question has to be what justification do we have for building a brand new stadium (wherever it may be) considering we currently don't sell out for most games. I suppose there's an argument that we'll keep the same sort of capacity and just modernise it if it's more about modernisation than crowd size, but you'd imagine that any new stadium would be expected to have a higher capacity.

And in terms of the financing, it would be somewhat out of the blue to splash that level of cash without significant investment from somewhere, and our recent efforts at garnering that investment were pretty poor.

Looking at the statement again, it really does seem a very mealy-mouthed way of saying, 'something might happen...but we really don't know what'.

Probably best to just take it as that for now.

Don't you think that operating at 98% capacity across the season is a decent justification, even if we aren't actually at sellout for most games? It would clearly be easier and far more lucrative if we added (say) 5k seats to the east and west stands rather than 5k through corners and North stand redevelopment.

I think we'd have more problems adding seats to the East & West stands as they currently stand than we would rebuilding. It would almost certainly mean increasing the height, adding a second tier to them both. I don't think there's enough space behind either stand to be able to do this. Plus, the "neighbours" behind the West stand already kicked up a fuss about stand height when the current South stand went up.

I think Adi is on the right lines when he says that offering a running track & facilities around where the Stoop footprint now is that could be used by the community/college/schools would help gain brownie points in the planning process. It could also gain at least some council money going towards the scheme as it would be a community asset. If we could persuade the council that they want to relinquish the depot behind the South stand, we can move the main pitch down & rotate it a bit to fit in there. There would be less issue with the height of the two long stands, as they wouldn't be overshadowing either the flats or the houses as they do now. Fill in two corners and you can reduce the height a bit too.

I haven't run the numbers for last year, as I was busy doing other things, but the percentage capacity usege was well into the 90s for our home games the three seasons before that. Yes, when a STH doesn't make it to a game, that means their seat is counted as "used" if it's not resold, but the fact is we *are* getting close to full more often than not.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:50
Rodders, the numbers they usually use are for seats sold. That will include all the STHs, including those that don't turn up to some of the games. You may think that's a bit of a cheat, but if the seat is sold to a STH, and they don't use it or offer it for re-sale, then that seat *is* effectively sold, whether there's someone in it or not. Also, there'll be times when some STHs are in the Hostility boxes, so even when their seats in the stands aren't sat in, the people are still there.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
DazzaS (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 15:28
There is a risk jumping from just under 15,000 to 25,000. Under Mark evans he only rebuilt as and when so it atmosphere is not lost. Next logical step is North stand and there was indeed a basic plan that Ellis showed a couple of years ago to push us up to 17-18,000 which is sufficient.

He then said maximum we csn get on our site is 20,000 which should be sufficient and if occasionally we need more we will go to HQ. Bit of a sudden change and a big one at that

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
TW Quin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 15:25
As to running track nonsense at the Stoop - St Marys university nearby at Teddington have the recently named Sir Mo Farah running track.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 15:38
I'm very pleased they have dropped the "Twickenham" nonsense.



In simple terms, if my seat is still reasonably priced and has as good a vantage point as currently then I can live with pretty much anything as I have to travel whatever.



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
PeterboroughQuin (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 16:08
To me this is a good thing. A new stadium with new and better facilities, toilets, bars etc.The extra seats means more free tickets to local schools and businesses. We cant be left behind. Maybe extra seats will be added over the running track on match days.

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 16:08
Just throwing an idea out there, but maybe the proposed increased size means that the mooted new stadium would mean that it gets over a threshold size for other events. The Elton John and Little Mix concerts seemed to be a success during the summer. If the "New Stoop" offered a venue for concerts etc that was over a certain size that we currently don't meet with the "Stoop As Is", this could be a useful revenue stream. I know it's not going to replace a Wembley or Twickenham Stadium sized crowd for bands/artists that can sell those venues out. But there's lots of artists that tour who could quite easily do a smaller stadium gig, and may even prefer that to an enclosed concert hall/theatre gig.

I know it wouldn't be a regular revenue stream, but having a mid-sized stadium that can hold events like that, along with some experience garnered from this summer may have opened up opportunities that the club hadn't previously considered...

 
Re: Harlequins long term vision for Twickenham Stoop
MrOther (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 16:10
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
RodneyRegis
... We just went through a rather pathetic round of investment with the bond, if there was this kind of cash or credit available, why did that happen? It simply doesn't ring true ...

... And in terms of the financing, it would be somewhat out of the blue to splash that level of cash without significant investment from somewhere ...

If there’s a credible plan there’s always the prospect of raising finance for it and I don’t think we’d be feeding this sort of stuff to journos at The Times if we weren’t pretty confident that there was somebody ready to fund it. We’re even mailing the supporters for chrissake (well, apart from DOK), so it must be all over bar the shouting, mustn’t it?

Given that the entire regional economy is held afloat by a decades-long property-speculation bubble, inflated by successive governments and now far “too big to fail”, a bankable plan is more than thinkable.

You thought it was a rugby club with a bit of choice real estate, but it turned out to be a property speculation with a sports club on its land. That doesn’t have to be bad for the club but don’t expect the interests of the club to come first. Why would/should they?

Coincidentally, my sons were educated in what I thought was a school with a few choice chunks of Oxford property, but which on closer examination proved to be a property speculation with a school on its land.

That’s what you get when you give up the real economy to the cocaine of ever rising (inflation-adjusted) property prices.

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