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Build a new team not a new stadium
Greene King (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 14:12
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 14:17
You mean you weren't worried before today???

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
never sleep (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 16:39
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.
You do realise that there is no connection between the architect who is designing a stadium and the coaching and playing team.
Markus Smith and JK are not going to be drafted in to do brick laying and Tim Visser isn't going to be serving in the bar at half time.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 18:01
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 18:17
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

So we're guaranteed a win next week with the England players back then?(Sm100)

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Greene King (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 18:25
Quote:
never sleep
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.
You do realise that there is no connection between the architect who is designing a stadium and the coaching and playing team.
Markus Smith and JK are not going to be drafted in to do brick laying and Tim Visser isn't going to be serving in the bar at half time.
That’s good to know as I was worried that if they were laying the bricks they would have huge gaps in the wall which you could drive a truck through and they would spill the beer just before putting it on the bar. smiling smiley



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
blucherquin (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 19:18
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

So we're guaranteed a win next week with the England players back then?(Sm100)

If the 20 injuries clear up too i reckon we’ve got a shot

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 19:43
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

So we're guaranteed a win next week with the England players back then?(Sm100)

If the 20 injuries clear up too i reckon we’ve got a shot

Because out of Sinkler/Collier, Ward/Elia,Marler, Horwill, Matthews, Robshaw,Luamanu, Chisholm, Care, Smith, Roberts, Marchant, Walker,Visser, Brown...we have precisely how many 1st xv players missing? OK Marchant may not be back, there's an argument (albeit a weak one) for Catrakillis over Smith & allegedly perhaps Bothna over Luamanu. But its near enough a full strength 1st xv. On the bench, I'd argue the injuries have strengthened us at 9, because Kitto is better than any of our injured scrummies.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
25 November, 2017 20:47
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

So we're guaranteed a win next week with the England players back then?(Sm100)

If the 20 injuries clear up too i reckon we’ve got a shot

Because out of Sinkler/Collier, Ward/Elia,Marler, Horwill, Matthews, Robshaw,Luamanu, Chisholm, Care, Smith, Roberts, Marchant, Walker,Visser, Brown...we have precisely how many 1st xv players missing? OK Marchant may not be back, there's an argument (albeit a weak one) for Catrakillis over Smith & allegedly perhaps Bothna over Luamanu. But its near enough a full strength 1st xv. On the bench, I'd argue the injuries have strengthened us at 9, because Kitto is better than any of our injured scrummies.

That's a bit disingenuous. Firstly, we've had next to no consistency in our lineups due to injury/suspension/callups. Secondly it seems like some p0layers get a couple of games under their belt and hit decent form, then have a layoff (think Clifford, Chisholm, Marchant, Sloan and more). Thirdly, players like Horwill, Luamanu etc cannot keep playing week in, week out without some form of rotation. Fourthly, when you take key players such as Robshaw, Brown, Care, Marler out of the team you lose a lot more than just players; you lose leaders. And finally, our bench has featured players who would (in a season with less injuries) be nowhere near the match day squad. We've got two scrum halves in our squad who have been at the club for less than two weeks. We're down to approximately our fifth choice in some positions.

So, stating that Kitto is better than some of the guys he's been brought in to cover doesn't really paint the whole picture.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 00:15
Quote:
Quinky Kin

That's a bit disingenuous. Firstly, we've had next to no consistency in our lineups due to injury/suspension/callups. Secondly it seems like some p0layers get a couple of games under their belt and hit decent form, then have a layoff (think Clifford, Chisholm, Marchant, Sloan and more). Thirdly, players like Horwill, Luamanu etc cannot keep playing week in, week out without some form of rotation. Fourthly, when you take key players such as Robshaw, Brown, Care, Marler out of the team you lose a lot more than just players; you lose leaders. And finally, our bench has featured players who would (in a season with less injuries) be nowhere near the match day squad. We've got two scrum halves in our squad who have been at the club for less than two weeks. We're down to approximately our fifth choice in some positions.

So, stating that Kitto is better than some of the guys he's been brought in to cover doesn't really paint the whole picture.

Yes, well as we know, disengenuous is the polite way of calling someone a liar, so thank you for that.

I'm sure its just some peculiar curse that strikes Harlequins year in year out & that no other teams have changes of lineups, injuries, suspensions or England call ups. Its all a giant conspiracy which explains why we are consistently mediocre and have been declining inexorably since 2012.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 06:10
If I'd wanted to call you a liar, I would have done so. But this post just highlights your habit of misinterpretation.

I can't tell you about other teams, but I'd be interested to know how many currently have around 30 players unavailable.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 07:06
Yes our injuries are bad, but looking at the two starting XVs yesterday, there’s no way we should have been four tries down and game over after 20 minutes.

That’s an attitude problem and that’s a coaching problem, and the more the club simply blames it on unavailable players alone, the longer we’ll be in this rut.

It looks like we’ll be 9th or 10th come Christmas. Injuries or not that is simply not good enough and something has to change.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 08:23
If people want to blame it all on injuries, be my guest.

I'm not buying it. And plenty others aren't, either (take a look at FB comments).

It most definitely is not why we lost yesterday before we even get to the manner of the defeat.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
blucherquin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 08:51
Quote:
Cookie
If people want to blame it all on injuries, be my guest.
I'm not buying it. And plenty others aren't, either (take a look at FB comments).

It most definitely is not why we lost yesterday before we even get to the manner of the defeat.

You’re answering a point that wasn’t asked.

The original post said we needed a new team. We don’t. I’ve no idea why we lost yesterday haven’t seen the game. But we’ve got a perfectly good squad. Why that squad can’t win more is a different question.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 09:02
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Cookie
If people want to blame it all on injuries, be my guest.
I'm not buying it. And plenty others aren't, either (take a look at FB comments).

It most definitely is not why we lost yesterday before we even get to the manner of the defeat.

You’re answering a point that wasn’t asked.

The original post said we needed a new team. We don’t. I’ve no idea why we lost yesterday haven’t seen the game. But we’ve got a perfectly good squad. Why that squad can’t win more is a different question.

I'm responding to a point that was made, such is the way discussions evolve.

There's little wrong with our squad.

We lost yesterday because we could not perform the basics of tackling, rucking and keeping our discipline with a bit of lineout and scrum deficiency thrown in.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
never sleep (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 09:42
The original post is making a connection between the playing part of Quins v the non playing. A lot of people think that poor results on the pitch will mean that supporters will abandon the club in droves. The more likely reason that people will stop coming to watch games is that the environment is wrong, eg not enough toilets, etc.

No matter what happens on the pitch on a Saturday, there are still office staff, etc who will be doing there normal day job on Monday.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 10:10
I don't think anyone has said that we lost because of injuries. I think it's a reason for our inconsistencies, but not the only reason.

We conceded four tries very quickly. We then conceded none for the rest of the game. Doubtless some will say that Bath eased off; others will say we woke up; some may say we had four defensive lapses. Whatever the reason, it doesn't make sense to me. Clearly the players CAN do what is needed to win. As has been said, we don't need a new team. A consistently fit and available squad would help.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 10:09
Quote:
Quinky Kin
If I'd wanted to call you a liar, I would have done so. But this post just highlights your habit of misinterpretation.
I can't tell you about other teams, but I'd be interested to know how many currently have around 30 players unavailable.


"habit of misinterpretation" (Sm128)

Anyway, as many other posters have pointed out. We don't have significantly more 1st xv players out than any other team, and as we have been consstently inconsistent/mediocre for the last 3 years, its "disingenuous" to suggest that our performance level can be blamed on injuries.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Stooperman (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 10:17
Quote:
never sleep
The original post is making a connection between the playing part of Quins v the non playing. A lot of people think that poor results on the pitch will mean that supporters will abandon the club in droves. The more likely reason that people will stop coming to watch games is that the environment is wrong, eg not enough toilets, etc.
No matter what happens on the pitch on a Saturday, there are still office staff, etc who will be doing there normal day job on Monday.

The trouble is that this is a hauntingly familiar problem. Mark Evans himself admitted that the stadium expansion plans were a major part of the reason he took his eye off the playing side & didn't re-invest enough in the players in the year we were relegated.

There is a suspicion that we aren't paying up to the salary cap already, with NEV having been replaced by Cat & Yarde potentially by Earles for example. Most of the recruitment JK is doing seems to be journeymen - which is fair enough you can't have a team of superstars when there is a salary cap ...but it feels as if we are not in the market for the very top players these days.

If we were to get relegated, & I accept that its very unlikely this year - the financial consequences with the loss of TV money & increased player salaries are much more severe than they were 10 years ago. IF Bristol come up next year, the bottom three could be very competitive.

So yes, the non playing side of the club can affect the playing side, & that effect could be very damaging.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 12:14
Our playing squad is good enough our coaching staff is not. Look what EJ has done with England with the same players to to the same extend what coaches have done in Scotland. We need a new DOR who will bring his own coaches in and start again. Our team wire desire and confidence is a match for anyone, without it we can barely complete a 1 on 1 tackle.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 12:18
Mark Evans was doing two jobs at once at that stage - never a perfect starting point.

JKs Buy-ins are hardly journeymen - hospital men, perhaps. Too far into season to expect to replace Yarde yet, although one has been mooted. I am sure we have heard from JK and Ellis that we are/were spending to the cap - no one has evidence to expose this as a lie, just supposition.

Should we get relegated at some point in the future, the consequences would be dire, especially grand ambitions for a 25,000 seater stadium, but if that does happen, it will be the playing and coaching set up that is to blame, not the “management”, surely?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 13:39
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I don't think anyone has said that we lost because of injuries. I think it's a reason for our inconsistencies, but not the only reason.
We conceded four tries very quickly. We then conceded none for the rest of the game. Doubtless some will say that Bath eased off; others will say we woke up; some may say we had four defensive lapses. Whatever the reason, it doesn't make sense to me. Clearly the players CAN do what is needed to win. As has been said, we don't need a new team. A consistently fit and available squad would help.

But if you’re not blaming it on injuries, and accept that the players can do what is needed to win but aren’t doing it, isn't there only one other place to look for the problem?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 14:07
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I don't think anyone has said that we lost because of injuries. I think it's a reason for our inconsistencies, but not the only reason.
We conceded four tries very quickly. We then conceded none for the rest of the game. Doubtless some will say that Bath eased off; others will say we woke up; some may say we had four defensive lapses. Whatever the reason, it doesn't make sense to me. Clearly the players CAN do what is needed to win. As has been said, we don't need a new team. A consistently fit and available squad would help.

But if you're not blaming it on injuries, and accept that the players can do what is needed to win but aren't doing it, isn't there only one other place to look for the problem?

No - coaches and players - two places. Would be interesting to hear what Horwill has to say and, before it's said, I don't blame him solely either!

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 16:28
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Stooperman
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
After today can we please look at getting the team right before we think about getting a posh new stadium and running track.

We have a great team - they’re all playing for England’s or injured. So don’t be silly.

So we're guaranteed a win next week with the England players back then?(Sm100)

If the 20 injuries clear up too i reckon we’ve got a shot

What about bath's injury list? Not relevant?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 16:32
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I don't think anyone has said that we lost because of injuries. I think it's a reason for our inconsistencies, but not the only reason.
We conceded four tries very quickly. We then conceded none for the rest of the game. Doubtless some will say that Bath eased off; others will say we woke up; some may say we had four defensive lapses. Whatever the reason, it doesn't make sense to me. Clearly the players CAN do what is needed to win. As has been said, we don't need a new team. A consistently fit and available squad would help.

Or a decent coaching team at the helm?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 20:35
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Mark Evans was doing two jobs at once at that stage - never a perfect starting point.
JKs Buy-ins are hardly journeymen - hospital men, perhaps. Too far into season to expect to replace Yarde yet, although one has been mooted. I am sure we have heard from JK and Ellis that we are/were spending to the cap - no one has evidence to expose this as a lie, just supposition.

Should we get relegated at some point in the future, the consequences would be dire, especially grand ambitions for a 25,000 seater stadium, but if that does happen, it will be the playing and coaching set up that is to blame, not the “management”, surely?


'ere 'old on, who is responsible for appointing dem der coaches....?



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 09:08
Quote:
Scaramouche
...'ere 'old on, who is responsible for appointing dem der coaches....?

But its the inconsistency (of performance and availability) that is the problem - some weeks the players manage a good result and others they don't. They can do it. They have to sort out why its not working out. I cant see management taking a decisive change to the set up half way through the season - there is no conclusive proof that mid-season change makes a big deal (cf Greene King's previous posts on changing management). Bath and Leicester recently changed their coaching staff - Tigers twice. The latter got to playoffs but were beaten and this weekend lost to Worcester at home (losing only a few to England) and the former finished 5th last year and have been inconsistent since.

The two most successful clubs are the two most stable - Exeter and Sarries - and their coaching set up is mostly unchanged - albeit from a good starting point.

Change must come, especially if we get in to the Xmas/New Year period with little change in performance (and more luck with injury), but I wouldn't expect mid season change unless we lose all the games between here and Sale game, which might prompt a few resignations - or perhaps should do.

What should happen, if it isn't already, is some sort of inquest into the injuries we're sustaining or whether this is just part of a league-wide phenomena due to recent rule/law changes. Whichever it is, it needs a solution.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 09:14
If we don't change mid-season and then go on to finish 10th, next season will all be about giving the new team (and I mean 'team', not individual) a first season to put their footprint on the team. Why not use the rest of this season to prepare for next season?

Saying 'don't make a change' because it might not work isn't really an argument. Everyone knows the definition of insanity, right?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 09:35
It is an argument, just not one that you'd subscribe to. And I imagine you'll get as many definitions of insanity as there are for Brexit, or snow in Lapland, or rain in this country!

Apart from the additional pressure making changes mid way through the season, where might we find who you're looking for? I can see a good reason for someone with more defensive credential being bought in, but still wouldn't want to change DOR until there is a better idea of where the problem is (other than defence), if I was in a position to judge fairly.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:18
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Scaramouche
...'ere 'old on, who is responsible for appointing dem der coaches....?

But its the inconsistency (of performance and availability) that is the problem - some weeks the players manage a good result and others they don't. They can do it. They have to sort out why its not working out. I cant see management taking a decisive change to the set up half way through the season - there is no conclusive proof that mid-season change makes a big deal (cf Greene King's previous posts on changing management). Bath and Leicester recently changed their coaching staff - Tigers twice. The latter got to playoffs but were beaten and this weekend lost to Worcester at home (losing only a few to England) and the former finished 5th last year and have been inconsistent since.

The two most successful clubs are the two most stable - Exeter and Sarries - and their coaching set up is mostly unchanged - albeit from a good starting point.

Change must come, especially if we get in to the Xmas/New Year period with little change in performance (and more luck with injury), but I wouldn't expect mid season change unless we lose all the games between here and Sale game, which might prompt a few resignations - or perhaps should do.

What should happen, if it isn't already, is some sort of inquest into the injuries we're sustaining or whether this is just part of a league-wide phenomena due to recent rule/law changes. Whichever it is, it needs a solution.

I think stability is an excellent thing to aim for, and Sarries and Exeter do show that it's a good approach.

But you don't want something that is consistently not working. Simply hoping that consistency alone will sort things out is just asking for trouble, and that's what we've seen ever since we won the Premiership. We've tried to keep things the same in the hope that we'll somehow rekindle that magic concoction, but we keep going backwards instead. Promoting from within that broken system doesn't constitute consistency. It's self-sabotage.

Nobody is saying we want a setup where we hire and fire every six months like a football team.

We're talking about making the first serious change to the coaching setup since 2009/10. The current coaching set up has had more than enough time to show it can improve our players and they have largely shown that they cannot.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:30
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:

Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:47
Problem with any mid season change, who is available. I would guess we would have more options at the end of the season rather than now.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:51
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Problem with any mid season change, who is available. I would guess we would have more options at the end of the season rather than now.

This is a fair point, but I would very much hope we're looking at options rather than just sacking it off until the summer.

Mind you it took us something like 4 months to confirm JK's appointment, so I imagine trying to hire someone externally may be a lengthy process!

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 11:09
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Problem with any mid season change, who is available. I would guess we would have more options at the end of the season rather than now.

This is a fair point, but I would very much hope we're looking at options rather than just sacking it off until the summer.

Mind you it took us something like 4 months to confirm JK's appointment, so I imagine trying to hire someone externally may be a lengthy process!

Nick Mallet & Ben Ryan off the top of my head. At opposite ends of the XVs rugby experience. Don't assume Ryan is 7s only and I'd love to see him in. He is potentially going to get signed up by France, though.

There are always options if you decide a change is needed.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 11:19
Nick Mallet would be a strong shout, but were we not linked with him previously and he turned us down?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
malco (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 11:29
It seems to me that the area of the team that you most need to focus on strengthening is the front five.

The good news is that it seems you have tied up the services of Nick Auterac at loosehead for next season. He is a phenomenal talent, a major physical specimen and I seriously think he has the potential to become the first choice for England within the next couple of years. A very, very good signing indeed.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 12:35
Quote:
Roaming Quin
Nick Mallet would be a strong shout, but were we not linked with him previously and he turned us down?

He stepped away from rugby to spend time with his family but has been doing the odd game for the Baa Baas etc. If he could be tempted back, he'd be an excellent choice.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 23:58
Quote:
Cookie
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

London Irish made changes too. How has it worked out for them?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 07:05
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

London Irish made changes too. How has it worked out for them?

I don't think even the most ardent Irish fans would say they are targeting the top 4. Bit of a silly comparison.

They have managed one win, though (with a bonus point)...............!

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
DOK (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:05
We have a team that could win the premiership. Sorry, but I firmly believe that. If they were coached right, hadn't had the injuries and played to their abilities they could win it.

They're not coached right, we've had tremendous injuries and the team go through the motions sometime in every game.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:08
What was Leicester's position when they made their changes (both of them)?



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:13
Quote:
Jammy Git
What was Leicester's position when they made their changes (both of them)?

In their case it seemed less about improving and more about maintaining their position (in the top 4). We don't have the luxury of being there to worry about staying there.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:14
Quote:
DOK
We have a team that could win the premiership. Sorry, but I firmly believe that. If they were coached right, hadn't had the injuries and played to their abilities they could win it.
They're not coached right, we've had tremendous injuries and the team go through the motions sometime in every game.

Totally agree with the addition of our discipline being unacceptably bad.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
DOK (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:18
My bad - you are so right about discipline! It is so bad it needs pulling out as a separate issue.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:30
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Jammy Git
What was Leicester's position when they made their changes (both of them)?

In their case it seemed less about improving and more about maintaining their position (in the top 4). We don't have the luxury of being there to worry about staying there.

They fired people to maintain the status quo at the time of firing? That doesn't seem right to me.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:34
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Jammy Git
What was Leicester's position when they made their changes (both of them)?

In their case it seemed less about improving and more about maintaining their position (in the top 4). We don't have the luxury of being there to worry about staying there.

They fired people to maintain the status quo at the time of firing? That doesn't seem right to me.

There were clearly issues up there which I'm sure will come out in time.

He'd been coach for 12 years and maybe had gone stale...........

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:36
They'd started losing more matches and were no longer regular challengers for the title. They're a team used to being top 2 and always in the final, not being usurped by other teams. The double set of changes have not yet changed that much.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:51
They finished a comfortable 4th and lost away to Wasps by a point in the play-offs. I'm sure their fans would have been a little frustrated, but not angry. There was no shame in finishing behind Wasps, Exeter and Sarries and they went very close in the play-offs.

I'd bite your hand off if you offered that to Quins!

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:42
Tigers history is better than that. Regardless, they've not improved yet, so they're a poor comparison.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Mancquin (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:56
News today that Premiership Rugby are looking again at the no relegation scenario. So if that is how it goes it doesn't matter whether Quins is first or twelfth ( or possibly 14th in the league) either way we stay up. The investors have no risk to their investment. We can concentrate on having a 25,000 seater stadium to watch a 70 year old Elton John strutting his stuff. Marvellous stuff. Cynical moi?

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 23:08
Saw this on the Warriors board, found it interesting -

A summary of the inside article:-

- Headline: Why it's time to scrap relegation from the Premiership
- Ringfencing has not gone away
- Opposition fading
- In its present form the Championship does not work, the league as a competition is a foregone conclusion
- Bristol's player salary budget of £5m is 5 times almost all of the rest.
- Luatua is on roughly twice as much as Richmond spend on their entire squad
- Second place in the Championship gets £60k
- Drama is at the other end of the league where fear of relegation means that some budgets are unaffordable but required to stay up
- Bedford and Richmond aside, all Championship clubs operate at a loss
- Exeter precedent? No one close to emulating their success
- London Welsh suicide; Bedford survived in 2000 by dropping a league
- Bristol will succeed; Yorkshire Carnegie have ambition but not close. There is no need to spend money on players if they can't catch Bristol.
- Any other Championship clubs wanting a taste of the Premiership are either lying or mad
- Different in Exeter's day: When they were promoted salary cap was £4m. Nowadays, Championship clubs spend on average £1m pa on salaries at a time when the cap is £8.5m ish taking into account marquee players etc.
- It is a leap too far to go from £1m to £8.5m which is why only clubs that go up are the ones which have just come down
- Writer suggests relegation / promotion every 4 years
- Usual arguments such as developing young players if no risk of relegation
- Problem: 13 clubs of Premiership quality currently.
- Possibly have a league of 13 but survival of the fittest?
- Most vulnerable Worcester and London Irish - both clubs up for sale
- For ringfencing to be agreed, it would have to go through a number of hurdles but "it is back on the table and it has growing support".


So, not sure on what this is all based but the writer, Owen Slot, sounds informed. It may all however be speculation.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 05:52
Probably all tied together with the discussions of the PGB today. Here's a Grauniad article about it...

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 06:22
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

London Irish made changes too. How has it worked out for them?

I don't think even the most ardent Irish fans would say they are targeting the top 4. Bit of a silly comparison.

They have managed one win, though (with a bonus point)...............!

I'm sure even the least ardent LI fan would be chasing 11th place as a minimum. In which case, changes made haven't brought the desired result. Perfectly good comparison, I'd say.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Cookie (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 08:41
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

London Irish made changes too. How has it worked out for them?

I don't think even the most ardent Irish fans would say they are targeting the top 4. Bit of a silly comparison.

They have managed one win, though (with a bonus point)...............!

I'm sure even the least ardent LI fan would be chasing 11th place as a minimum. In which case, changes made haven't brought the desired result. Perfectly good comparison, I'd say.

But of course, QK. Of course.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 08:26
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Cookie
Apologies to those reading this in duplicate as it's on another thread, but relevant here if not following the other one:
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

London Irish made changes too. How has it worked out for them?

I don't think even the most ardent Irish fans would say they are targeting the top 4. Bit of a silly comparison.

They have managed one win, though (with a bonus point)...............!

I'm sure even the least ardent LI fan would be chasing 11th place as a minimum. In which case, changes made haven't brought the desired result. Perfectly good comparison, I'd say.

But of course, QK. Of course.

Glad we can agree on something.

 
Re: Build a new team not a new stadium
blucherquin (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 09:50
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Saw this on the Warriors board, found it interesting -
A summary of the inside article:-

- Headline: Why it's time to scrap relegation from the Premiership
- Ringfencing has not gone away
- Opposition fading
- In its present form the Championship does not work, the league as a competition is a foregone conclusion
- Bristol's player salary budget of £5m is 5 times almost all of the rest.
- Luatua is on roughly twice as much as Richmond spend on their entire squad
- Second place in the Championship gets £60k
- Drama is at the other end of the league where fear of relegation means that some budgets are unaffordable but required to stay up
- Bedford and Richmond aside, all Championship clubs operate at a loss
- Exeter precedent? No one close to emulating their success
- London Welsh suicide; Bedford survived in 2000 by dropping a league
- Bristol will succeed; Yorkshire Carnegie have ambition but not close. There is no need to spend money on players if they can't catch Bristol.
- Any other Championship clubs wanting a taste of the Premiership are either lying or mad
- Different in Exeter's day: When they were promoted salary cap was £4m. Nowadays, Championship clubs spend on average £1m pa on salaries at a time when the cap is £8.5m ish taking into account marquee players etc.
- It is a leap too far to go from £1m to £8.5m which is why only clubs that go up are the ones which have just come down
- Writer suggests relegation / promotion every 4 years
- Usual arguments such as developing young players if no risk of relegation
- Problem: 13 clubs of Premiership quality currently.
- Possibly have a league of 13 but survival of the fittest?
- Most vulnerable Worcester and London Irish - both clubs up for sale
- For ringfencing to be agreed, it would have to go through a number of hurdles but "it is back on the table and it has growing support".


So, not sure on what this is all based but the writer, Owen Slot, sounds informed. It may all however be speculation.

He's the chief rugby writer for the Times.


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