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Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 09:12
When Deano arrived first thing he seemed to get in place was our defence. Ackerman at Glaws has re energised their play especially their defence. Gregor Townsend has shaken up Scotland. Tigers have had a change after many years.

I really think Quins urgently need a change of management as the squad need to be taken out of the comfy atmosphere of the same old voices. Ackerman has had new ideas and challenged the traditional mood when they played away.

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

The stadium development appears optimistic if 25k seating is the target....not sure where that level of regular support will be achieved.

I fully appreciate injuries have really hit us badly plus the old chestnut of having different styles of play for different 10s. I’m also concerned that some of 5e internationals and team leaders Danny, Chris, Mike etc are getting long in the tooth and after RWC in Japan are more than likely to retire.

 
Re: Impact of management change
10 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 12:13
Not sure there's any value in changing things until end of season.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 13:31
Quote:
10
Not sure there's any value in changing things until end of season.

The value is that a change today would give the incoming DOR time to make his own signings for the start of the new season.

 
Re: Impact of management change
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 14:04
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
10
Not sure there's any value in changing things until end of season.

The value is that a change today would give the incoming DOR time to make his own signings for the start of the new season.

Agreed. Gives the new man the time to see what we’ve got and decide what needs to change in both players and the coaching staff.

Plus you get the potential new DOR boost just by snapping the players out of the current malaise.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 13:50
So really everyone should just change the DOR and coaches every several years, unless they have a run of winning trophies so get rid when the run ends.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Dibden (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 15:10
The change needs to start with the shareholders who accept performance on the field is as important as the balance sheet and they appoint a ceo who fully shares that view.The stretch goal stated a few years ago of being the number one club in the world is a pipe dream and no more than pr speak

 
Re: Impact of management change
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 15:53
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
So really everyone should just change the DOR and coaches every several years, unless they have a run of winning trophies so get rid when the run ends.

Yes that’s what everyone is saying.

Christ.

 
Re: Impact of management change
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 15:36
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
So really everyone should just change the DOR and coaches every several years, unless they have a run of winning trophies so get rid when the run ends.

Nobody said that. Stop being so obtuse.

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 15:58
If you sack the DOR, Adi, you're still left with the attack coach, the defence coach, the skills coach and the psychologist. And I'm not convinced the scrum coach Rowntree has actually performed better than JK did when he ran the forwards. At least then we had a line out, a rolling maul and some defence. Given that JK isn't coaching the team in all these different areas, how the heck is it that we're failing in so many different ways? We know JK talks a good talk and the players seem to buy it - what on earth is going on?

There's something screwy going on (the only common thread seems to be injuries) but I really don't know what it is.

 
Re: Impact of management change
fandg2 (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 16:41
Quote:
DOK

There's something screwy going on (the only common thread seems to be injuries) but I really don't know what it is.

The 'screwy' thing going on is that the 3 'elite' foreign players bought in to see us through the international period arn't seeing us through the international period. Not the be and end all of what's going on I know but a big part of our current problem imo

 
Re: Impact of management change
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 16:43
I think the fact that only Irish have conceded more indicates a big issue for us.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:04
Quote:
DOK
If you sack the DOR, Adi, you're still left with the attack coach, the defence coach, the skills coach and the psychologist. And I'm not convinced the scrum coach Rowntree has actually performed better than JK did when he ran the forwards. At least then we had a line out, a rolling maul and some defence. Given that JK isn't coaching the team in all these different areas, how the heck is it that we're failing in so many different ways? We know JK talks a good talk and the players seem to buy it - what on earth is going on?
There's something screwy going on (the only common thread seems to be injuries) but I really don't know what it is.

For clarity I'm not saying sack JK now, just pointing out a benefit of doing so. I personally would rather replace Easter and probably mapletoft anyway.

 
Re: Impact of management change
RocQuin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:07
Quote:
DOK
If you sack the DOR, Adi, you're still left with the attack coach, the defence coach, the skills coach and the psychologist. And I'm not convinced the scrum coach Rowntree has actually performed better than JK did when he ran the forwards. At least then we had a line out, a rolling maul and some defence. Given that JK isn't coaching the team in all these different areas, how the heck is it that we're failing in so many different ways? We know JK talks a good talk and the players seem to buy it - what on earth is going on?
There's something screwy going on (the only common thread seems to be injuries) but I really don't know what it is.
He should be able to talk a good talk, he says it every week

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:22
Unfortunately some of the guys have been there for a long time JK, Tofty, Colin, Dippy, Minty, Nev, etc and are steeped in Quins over the past decade.

New ideas, new voices, plus a management team that the squad aren’t comfortable with.....Sarries pulled it off starting with Dr Venter and some young coaches. Maybe they took a risk with 5heir young coaches but Paul Gusrard, Alex Sanderson and the others plus the squad bought into the ethos.

Bucking that trend has been Rob Baxter at Chiefs but that seemed to be by harnessing their location geographically as underdogs. He maintained the squad but added quality older successful players to help them develope.

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:25
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
So really everyone should just change the DOR and coaches every several years, unless they have a run of winning trophies so get rid when the run ends.

Nobody said that. Stop being so obtuse.

Nobody said it, but it's not a bad idea. Good clear out every so many years, new blood, fresh start. Stop the leadership becoming stale and @#$%&.

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:28
Quote:
MrOther
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
So really everyone should just change the DOR and coaches every several years, unless they have a run of winning trophies so get rid when the run ends.

Nobody said that. Stop being so obtuse.

Nobody said it, but it's not a bad idea. Good clear out every so many years, new blood, fresh start. Stop the leadership becoming stale and @#$%&.

WTF? I can't write "stale and 1nbred" here? Gimme a break.

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:39
This software is used by football fans too. The profanity checker has to deal with them too!

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 17:53
Quote:
DOK
This software is used by football fans too. The profanity checker has to deal with them too!

It was folly ever to make football fans privy to the mystery of the written word.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 19:33
Sack Tofty replace with Greenwood ( would cost a lot), sack Easter and replace with anyone who can coach tackle techniqu and the very basics of defence.

It’s a dream but let’s face it we need change and quickly.

 
Re: Impact of management change
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 19:46
s c u m is filtered!

 
Re: Impact of management change
Mayor West (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 19:51
As I've said on another thread, how about getting the coaches in from the ladies squad.

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 20:26
Quote:
RodneyRegis
s c u m is filtered!

No, I’m alllowed to post, only certain words I use aren’t allowed.

:-)

 
Re: Impact of management change
Greene King (IP Logged)
26 November, 2017 22:59
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Impact of management change
blucherquin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 06:48
Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

Link?

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 07:47
"From club to commercial powerhouse; chief executive David Ellis on life at Harlequins"

As context, a 2013 piece from something enticingly describing itself as "Management Today".

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 09:07
ACKERMAN is the head coach at Glaws but has obviously had a impact on Humphries DOR. as well.

With all the experienced internationals we have at Quins l can’t believe they are not concerned about the teams defensive frailties. They should have some clear the air meeting s to point the finger at who is messing up.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 09:11
Looking at the highlights (wanted a different word) from the Bath game a lot seems to hinge on 1on1 tackling and our players are just not effective in that area.

Compare to Sarries, who generally tackle effectively and behind both tackle and gain lines.

It doesn't really matter what system is in place if we cant do basics.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:15
Quote:
Roaming Quin
Sack Tofty replace with Greenwood ( would cost a lot), sack Easter and replace with anyone who can coach tackle techniqu and the very basics of defence.
It’s a dream but let’s face it we need change and quickly.

Replace Tofty with a pundit who's done a couple of exhibition games as backs coach?



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:20
Bath, Glos and Leicester made changes - they're 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Quins and Northampton didn't and we're 7th and 8th, at least 6 points behind them.

We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Roaming Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 10:37
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Roaming Quin
Sack Tofty replace with Greenwood ( would cost a lot), sack Easter and replace with anyone who can coach tackle techniqu and the very basics of defence.
It’s a dream but let’s face it we need change and quickly.

Replace Tofty with a pundit who's done a couple of exhibition games as backs coach?

Tofty has been pretty in effective, also the pundit has done considerably more than that, but i do get your point. Mine is that imo it is those two positions that need to change.

 
Re: Impact of management change
QuincyJones (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 12:26
It's evident that JK isn't the man to head up anything. Easter needs to move on, clearly woefully inadequate. Would he have got a top defence coach job at any other club in the world than quins?....No chance. Now we know why.

The only person I would like to keep within the current setup is Nick Evans, who has given us some great go-forward in attack so far this year and he'll only get better.

The rest of them can go as far as I'm concerned.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 12:08
Quote:
Roaming Quin
Quote:
Jammy Git
Quote:
Roaming Quin
Sack Tofty replace with Greenwood ( would cost a lot), sack Easter and replace with anyone who can coach tackle techniqu and the very basics of defence.
It’s a dream but let’s face it we need change and quickly.

Replace Tofty with a pundit who's done a couple of exhibition games as backs coach?

Tofty has been pretty in effective, also the pundit has done considerably more than that, but i do get your point. Mine is that imo it is those two positions that need to change.

What's Greenwood done? Tofty joined as skills coach after learning the ropes with the U20s and others.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 13:04
In this article on How Robshaw has Earned Eddie Jones' Respect

There's a fun bit...
Quote:
Robshaw
“Little things, when you come into camp... as much as I hate the Saracens, being a Harlequins man and stuff, they all speak extremely well in terms of the way they’re coached.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Greene King (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 13:15
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

Link?

There are several interesting pieces of research into the impact of sports coaches on athlete performance which I have recently explored as pat of an academic research paper. The paper focused specifically on rugby union and is currently subject to some restrictions as it is being prepared to be published. Some key studies are:

Terry, P. Howe, B (1984). ‘Coaching preferences of athletes’. Canadian Journal of
Applied Sports Sciences, 9,pp. 188-193.

Shields, D. Gardner, D. Bredemeier, B and Bostro, A. (1997). ‘The Relationship
Between Leadership Behaviors and Group Cohesion in Team Sports’. The Journal
Of Psychology Vol. 131, Iss. 2, pp. 196-210.

Anderson, J. (1990). ‘Cognitive psychology and its implications’. New York:
Freeman.

Audus, R. Dobson, and S. Goddard, J. (1997). ‘Team performance and
managerial change in the English Football League’. Economic Affairs, 17(3), pp. 30-
36.

Camy, J. Chantelat, P. and Nier, O. (2003). ‘Les stratégies identitaires des clubs de
rugby de l’élite europeene face à la professionalisation (1987-1997)’, Science et
motricité, Vol. 3, No. 50, pp. 103-125.

Charbonn, D. Barlin, J. Kelloway, K. (2001). ‘Transformational Leadership and
Sports Performance: The Mediating Role of Intrinsic Motivation‘. Journal of Applied
Social Psychology, 2001, 31, 7, pp. 1521-1534.

Cotterill, S. and Fransen, K. (2016). ‘Athlete leadership in sport teams: Current
understanding and future directions’. International Review of Sport and Exercise
Psychology, 9:1, pp.116-133.
Crust, L. Lawrence, I. (2006). ‘A Review of Leadership in Sport: Implications for
Football Management’. Athletic Insight – The onsite journal of sports psychology.
Vol.8, Issue 4. pp.28-48.

Felton, L. and Jowett, S. (2013). ‘What do coaches do” and “how do they relate”:
Their effects on athletes’ psychological needs and functioning’. Scandinavain Journal
of Medicine & Science in Sports 2013: 23, pp. 130–139.

Flores, R. Forest, D. and Tena, J. (2012). ‘Decision taking under pressure:
Evidence on football manager dismissals in Argentina and their consequences’.
European Journal of Operational Research, Volume 222, Issue 3, 1 November 2012,
pp. 653-662.

Gebert, D. Heinitz, K. Buengeler, C. (2016).’ Leaders' charismatic leadership and
followers' commitment — The moderating dynamics of value erosion at the societal
level’, The Leadership Quarterly, February 2016, Vol.27(1), pp. 98-10.

Gillet, N. Vallerand, R. Amoura, S. and Baldes, B. (2010). ‘Influence of coaches'
autonomy support on athletes' motivation and sport performance: A test of the
hierarchical model of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation’. Psychology of Sport and
Exercise, Volume 11, Issue 2, March 2010, pp. 155-161.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 13:29
A class response, GK! smiling smiley



BB

 
Re: Impact of management change
Cookie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 14:14
Quote:
DOK
In this article on How Robshaw has Earned Eddie Jones' Respect
There's a fun bit...
Quote:
Robshaw
“Little things, when you come into camp... as much as I hate the Saracens, being a Harlequins man and stuff, they all speak extremely well in terms of the way they’re coached.

Blimey!

 
Re: Impact of management change
Boonie (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 14:16
Quote:
DOK
In this article on How Robshaw has Earned Eddie Jones' Respect
There's a fun bit...
Quote:
Robshaw
“Little things, when you come into camp... as much as I hate the Saracens, being a Harlequins man and stuff, they all speak extremely well in terms of the way they’re coached.

Interesting...could/would anyone at Quins say the same?



"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 14:43
Thanks GK but after your exploration any conclusions or relevant quotes from the list of research documents?

 
Re: Impact of management change
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 14:51
Quote:
Kent Fan
Thanks GK but after your exploration any conclusions or relevant quotes from the list of research documents?

Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 15:20
Basically it's the old dead cat bounce.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 18:35
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
DOK
In this article on How Robshaw has Earned Eddie Jones' Respect
There's a fun bit...
Quote:
Robshaw
“Little things, when you come into camp... as much as I hate the Saracens, being a Harlequins man and stuff, they all speak extremely well in terms of the way they’re coached.

Blimey!

Hell’s teeth. A man as loyal and true you’re not going to find. If Robbo’s making this sort of comment it’s a clear vote for the JK-out camp. How long now?

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 18:44
Quote:
Cookie
We're equally as close to Worcester as we are the top 4. That should raise alarm bells on its own.

Have you seen what Worcester have been doing lately? They beat Tigers at Welford Road this weekend and Saints at home the week before. They came close to beating us at the Stoop before that and four rounds back they got closer to a losing bonus point at the Rec than we just did. We’ll do well to finish above them the way we’re going.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/11/2017 22:16 by MrOther.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Greene King (IP Logged)
27 November, 2017 19:11
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Kent Fan
Thanks GK but after your exploration any conclusions or relevant quotes from the list of research documents?

Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

That's it in a nutshell. I was privileged to have access to areas of the game that many are not given and I have to say there is so much that goes on that I though I knew but got totally wrong. A huge part is the players being able to think tactically on during a match and how many felt that they couldn't. This sounded and still does sound crazy to me as they must have the autonomy to make decisions as they see it but alas this simply isn't the case (in my findings). The impact/presence/wishes of the DOR and coaches is just one reason why this doesn't happen.

The leadership and management of the DOR is the single most productive or destructive element in a winning team, again in my findings.

There is so much more to say on this but I will simply send everyone to sleep and as I said there are various elements which are subject to embargo prior to publishing.

Having spoken to those involved in top flight rugby in the UK the role of DOR is changing very rapidly, moving further away from any thought of coaching and into general management so expect coaches to have a far greater impact on player performance. Ultimately it will be up to the DOR to get the right coaches to deliver consistent on pitch performance.

Make of that what you will.

There was one area which no one has ever examined and that's the element of luck. If the ref misses a forward pass and it leads to the winning score then that's good luck for the winning team and bad luck for the losers, and you can't plan or manage for that.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/11/2017 19:15 by Greene King.

 
Re: Impact of management change
joethefanatic (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 02:22
Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Kent Fan
Thanks GK but after your exploration any conclusions or relevant quotes from the list of research documents?

Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

That's it in a nutshell. I was privileged to have access to areas of the game that many are not given and I have to say there is so much that goes on that I though I knew but got totally wrong. A huge part is the players being able to think tactically on during a match and how many felt that they couldn't. This sounded and still does sound crazy to me as they must have the autonomy to make decisions as they see it but alas this simply isn't the case (in my findings). The impact/presence/wishes of the DOR and coaches is just one reason why this doesn't happen.

The leadership and management of the DOR is the single most productive or destructive element in a winning team, again in my findings.

There is so much more to say on this but I will simply send everyone to sleep and as I said there are various elements which are subject to embargo prior to publishing.

Having spoken to those involved in top flight rugby in the UK the role of DOR is changing very rapidly, moving further away from any thought of coaching and into general management so expect coaches to have a far greater impact on player performance. Ultimately it will be up to the DOR to get the right coaches to deliver consistent on pitch performance.

Make of that what you will.

There was one area which no one has ever examined and that's the element of luck. If the ref misses a forward pass and it leads to the winning score then that's good luck for the winning team and bad luck for the losers, and you can't plan or manage for that.

GK - Bath fan here - this last observation is fascinating. You obviously can't manage the actual event but has any thought been given on how to actively manage and train the response of the players to perceived good and bad luck?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

 
Re: Impact of management change
MrOther (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 07:24
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Kent Fan
Thanks GK but after your exploration any conclusions or relevant quotes from the list of research documents?

Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
Kent Fan

Difficult to understand a coaches impact but in a results led atmosphere we like Saints appear to think an established losing management team is ok.

.

The answer is the impact of the DOR and in turn coaching staff is pivitol to success or failure on pitch. Research suggests that the change of a DOR has an initial positive impact on individual performance followed by a return to norm if the coaching staff are not changed.

That's it in a nutshell. I was privileged to have access to areas of the game that many are not given and I have to say there is so much that goes on that I though I knew but got totally wrong. A huge part is the players being able to think tactically on during a match and how many felt that they couldn't. This sounded and still does sound crazy to me as they must have the autonomy to make decisions as they see it but alas this simply isn't the case (in my findings). The impact/presence/wishes of the DOR and coaches is just one reason why this doesn't happen.

The leadership and management of the DOR is the single most productive or destructive element in a winning team, again in my findings.

There is so much more to say on this but I will simply send everyone to sleep and as I said there are various elements which are subject to embargo prior to publishing.

Having spoken to those involved in top flight rugby in the UK the role of DOR is changing very rapidly, moving further away from any thought of coaching and into general management so expect coaches to have a far greater impact on player performance. Ultimately it will be up to the DOR to get the right coaches to deliver consistent on pitch performance.

Make of that what you will.

There was one area which no one has ever examined and that's the element of luck. If the ref misses a forward pass and it leads to the winning score then that's good luck for the winning team and bad luck for the losers, and you can't plan or manage for that.

GK - Bath fan here - this last observation is fascinating. You obviously can't manage the actual event but has any thought been given on how to actively manage and train the response of the players to perceived good and bad luck?

On the training of luck, see Niccolò Machiavelli. All any DOR needs to know about whipping Lady Luck into line.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:19
If the players are unwilling or unable to think tactically during a match the “holy grail” of playing what’s in front of you seems unattainable as a coaching path.

Going back to Sarries, so rather than coaching in the normal sense, have they been drilled repeatedly over and over again over the past 4or5 seasons. first defensively and more recently in attack.

The squad seem to be interchangeable and slip into patterns of play.

Our Quins way clicked in the premiership winning season but doesn5 seem to be sustainable.

We need a big change in our management team with a change of style.

I’m sure people will shout me down about our flair game being precious. We need to graft defensive - organisation, steel and grit not this flair.

 
Re: Impact of management change
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:41
No shouting down from me. You cant build a solid base on sand. Sarries perfected their defensive game, became "boring". Once they had that licked they expanded and became more adventurous. On their day they are a joy to watch, in attack and defence. As said, players are interchangeable, they come and go but the system stays, and they all know it. I would.be happy for quins to become "boring" if it meant sorting the defence out. Only Irish have conceded more points. Get that sorted and then go to.the "quins way" of attack.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Dibden (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:55
If we have a “system “ as per Sarries can someone enlighten me please?Another issue that has arisen is the amount of orders given by coaches during games-maybe 4o/50 instructions per game so players do what the coaches want and are afraid to take their own decisions.Not unique to us of course but the best coaches empower the players.Do ours?

 
Re: Impact of management change
Cookie (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 09:32
Same. And Ellis told me last year that we'd given up the flair game (or at least were varying it more) as we'd become predictable.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:12
Quote:
MrOther
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
DOK
In this article on How Robshaw has Earned Eddie Jones' Respect
There's a fun bit...
Quote:
Robshaw
“Little things, when you come into camp... as much as I hate the Saracens, being a Harlequins man and stuff, they all speak extremely well in terms of the way they’re coached.

Blimey!

Hell’s teeth. A man as loyal and true you’re not going to find. If Robbo’s making this sort of comment it’s a clear vote for the JK-out camp. How long now?

It's a clear comment about the coaches.

JK is no longer a coach.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:37
It's a clear comment about the Saracens coaches.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:00
I think it would be disingenuous to suggest there's not a comparison going on there.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:03
Are you calling me a liar? smiling smiley Ha ha!

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:06
haha!

I will say it's entirely possible we don't do ourselves any favours comparing ourselves to Sarries. No other team in the league holds a candle to their achievements. Exeter have done great but they're some way off Saracens' standard of butchering top European opposition.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:24
I’ve gone from a dislike of Sarries to a convert although I still tend to route for the opposition when watching 5hem. Watching them play is a lesson in what can be achieved with a squad buying into a game plan.

Their commitment is almost NZ like and they work very hard to support each other in defence and attack. This takes a lot of physical effort. Most teams can peak every now and then they are more consistent. I appreciate they have lost a few games recently but on the whole they put in big shifts every game.

Hats off to Glaws last week they matched & even surpassed them last week.

We can do it this week if everyone at Quins is as committed.

 
Re: Impact of management change
DOK (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:25
but is their defence unteachable? It was taught to them! Flats said a few weeks ago that defence systems are simple because you rely on knackered forwards executing them after 78 minutes. Sarries have pride in that wolf pack defence and that what gets them off the ground and back in the fray one more time to make that important tackle when they're starved of strength and oxygen.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:31
Their squad helps that a hell of a lot.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Impact of management change
Greene King (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:41
The whole subject of leadership and follow-ship in rugby is fascinating, at least I find it fascinating. There are some really great comments and observations in this thread.I would say that having examined the effects of managerial change in sport it is extremely complex and when a team is going through a bad spell sacking the coach and putting in a new one doesn't always give a better outcome. This approach is see in football where they dismiss managers if the team bus arrives late.

On the subject of tactical thinking, this gives me the most concern as it appears to be an area where there is massive inconsistency. If players do not feel that they can make a tactical decision during play for fear of being chastised if things don't go to plan.

How do teams plan for change in luck, the answer is it is virtually impossible in a sport like rugby which is fluid. Certainly there can be plans put in place should a player get carded but apart from that it is important that players can think tactically and adapt, which echoes my previous comment.

So whats the answer?
The DOR needs to set the strategy and manage the coaches
The Coaches need to set the tactics and communicate this to the players
The players need to implement the tactics but be able to adapt
The DOR and Coaches need to adapt the tactics during play to meet the change in play



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Impact of management change
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:46
I know its not the same as luck, as you cannot account for that, but doesn't EJ do something as regards to "chaos" in training??? Designed to get England to think fast/on their feet and adapt.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Greene King (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 14:34
Quote:
HonkyTonk
I know its not the same as luck, as you cannot account for that, but doesn't EJ do something as regards to "chaos" in training??? Designed to get England to think fast/on their feet and adapt.

The difference between Eddie Jones and a DOR is that he gets involved in coaching, the majority of DOR's are moving away from a coaching role.

The RFU have rolled out a simple system which is based on CARDS:
Creative
Aware
Resilient
Decision making
Self organizing

Anyone who has undertaken a RFU coaching course is likely to be familiar with this.It's aim is to get players at all levels thinking for themselves, yet the coaching side has still to empower players to do so. The elite squad (England) has and does implement this as part of their pre-match build up.



Legally drinking ale since 1986 & moaning like a good un with Q-GOMC since 2010.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 16:09
Quote:
Greene King
Quote:
HonkyTonk
I know its not the same as luck, as you cannot account for that, but doesn't EJ do something as regards to "chaos" in training??? Designed to get England to think fast/on their feet and adapt.

The difference between Eddie Jones and a DOR is that he gets involved in coaching, the majority of DOR's are moving away from a coaching role.

The RFU have rolled out a simple system which is based on CARDS:
Creative
Aware
Resilient
Decision making
Self organizing

Anyone who has undertaken a RFU coaching course is likely to be familiar with this.It's aim is to get players at all levels thinking for themselves, yet the coaching side has still to empower players to do so. The elite squad (England) has and does implement this as part of their pre-match build up.

Chaos
A Plan (of any sort)
Route 1
DEFENCE
Strangle the Oppo


I LOVE acronyms



Illegitimi non carborundum

 
Re: Impact of management change
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:04
And there I was, sitting in my garden, hearing all these threads about how beastly Sarries CEO, DOR, players etc were and this and that, and now they are everyone's slices of sourdough bread - well, I'm blowed. Who'd have thought?

How about a few apologies to the chaps up in Mill Hill, now that you know something special did and is still happening?

Muck me, I must be dreaming...

 
Re: Impact of management change
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:07
Never complained about the playing side, always acknowledged how good they are, its the other bits

 
Re: Impact of management change
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:19
Didn't mean you, specifically, HT.

But, point taken...

 
Re: Impact of management change
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 22:25
I shouldn't be too touchy!!!!

 
Re: Impact of management change
Cookie (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 08:44
I don't think anyone's really been critical of how they've done it ON the pitch. It's more about how they've done it OFF the pitch.

 
Re: Impact of management change
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
29 November, 2017 10:23
Stretching the analysis a bit can we include the captain and senior players into the team coaching plan.

I’ve always thought when they are under the post the captain etc re emphasises the game plan, assess the need for any tweaks surely sets the “targets” for the next 10to 15 minutes to get back into the game.

Maybe this is where we are failing as we seem unable to change in games especially defensively. So either the players are not disciplined enough, not willing to put the effort in, not skilled enough to implement the changes, not fit enough, or don’t agree / respect who’s delivering the talk.

As I have said before they need some brutally truthful sessions to pull the squad together. Maybe things like the Dr Roberts & Wales, Marland & Tim Vissers problems and releases have undermined morale.

Some of the international players don’t always seem to lift the squad when they come back from games. Again last season IMHO Dr Jamie seemed only to have bucked up when a Lions place was there.


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