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Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
quins4ever (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 13:08
Despite the high of BG10, I still feel there are fundamental, long-term issues with the culture and leadership of the team.

Mike Brown's comments in the Saturday's Times seem to back this up:
"It’s a few things,” Brown said, “some of which we wouldn’t want to air in public. The international and senior players try and drive it. But we can’t always be doing it. That’s probably why you see the frustration sometimes. We try to take ownership of a lot of stuff, but it’s not just us, the coaches and the other players need to do that as well.”: [www.thetimes.co.uk]

The decline started under COS, as we have gone from AP champions to 3rd, 4th, 8th, 7th, 6th and currently 7th. So, from a top 4 team we have slid back into mid-table mediocrity. The P11 year average AP position is 5.4.

Short term, I suggest we need a proper defence coach. Data from a separate thread shows just how bad our defence is: worst in the league in terms of tackle completion and we have shipped on average 27 pts a match.

Medium term, we need a world-class DOR to truly inspire and guide the squad to achieve its full potential if we are to achieve the club's stated ambition of being "the best sports team in the world, on and off the pitch".

Otherwise, we will stay a mid-table team with the odd high, like BG10, followed by disappointing lows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2018 15:30 by quins4ever.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
02 January, 2018 13:36
Blimey.....Uncomfortable reading for JK & Minty!!!!????

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
quin_jon (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 13:48
Not uncomfortable reading at all for me, mainly as the posted link path does not seem to work :-(


"https://www.thetimes.co.uk/.../harlequins-must-change"

Error = Not Found: /.../harlequins-must-change

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 14:03
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Blimey.....Uncomfortable reading for JK & Minty!!!!????

That's q4e talking about JK and Easter, not Mike Brown!

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 14:38
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Quote:
Harleys Evil Step Mum
Blimey.....Uncomfortable reading for JK & Minty!!!!????

That's q4e talking about JK and Easter, not Mike Brown!

Isn't it the bit that has been quoted that Brown said (can't see myself as link isn't working)?

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Monte (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:02
Mike Brown’s bit is the first bit OnLY it is behind the Times pay wall so unless you log on you won’t see it. He is being critical of some players who don’t work as hard as the Senor players which I think we would all agree with. One maybe playing for Sale on Sat!

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Cookie (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:10
Here we go, folks. A pretty good and fair summary:

Harlequins go in to Big Game Ten at Twickenham this afternoon and their supporters have every right to be worried. Harlequins are brilliant at putting together a big game. The problem is that they tend to follow it up with a small one.

There is no other team in the Premiership with such an ability to take a big scalp and then trip up the next week. There is no other team who have spent so long on the launchpad to great things, who attempt take-off, briefly take flight and then nosedive.

Boy, can they lift themselves. They are better at beating Saracens at home than any other team in the Premiership. They did it only four weeks ago. But they then lost twice to Ulster and to Newcastle Falcons by one point.

It was the same story at the start of the season. Wasps had not lost at home in the Premiership since December 2015 but our mighty Quins brought that streak to an end in September. “We took the castle at the Ricoh,” John Kingston, the director of rugby, said. Indeed they did. But their own castle, the Stoop, was stormed the next week by Leicester.

If only Harlequins could be consistent. It is easy to say that from the outside; from the inside, it must be hell. This is the view of Mike Brown, who is not one to sugar-coat a bitter reality: “We are not consistent enough. We get one big win and then drop off a week later. If we want to be at the top, we have to do it week in, week out,” he said.

Why can’t they? “It must be mindset,” the full back said. “In this league, you can’t go in not fired up for the game, not in the right frame of mind, and not do the stuff you’ve worked on during the week. It’s very frustrating. We want to be playing for trophies, we want to be top of the league and back to where we were in 2012. As a player, it is tough.”

The tumble down the league from 2012 has been fast. Harlequins went from being Championship winners that year to third to fourth and then to eighth. This is their fourth consecutive season of mid-table inertia.

There is another team who have followed the same path of regression; Northampton Saints, who they play today. They were also the two English teams who bombed in the Champions Cup this autumn, with four defeats from four. Their seasons seem to be all about waging a campaign to qualify for Europe, and then, when they get there, finding that they are not fit to survive.

On the one hand, there are players such as Brown for whom this relentless mid-table existence is a kind of purgatory. On the other, there is a danger that mid-table becomes the accepted way. Nick Evans, for so long their star No 10 and now on the coaching staff, says: “Yes, that is something that we are very conscious of, that we need to change — being hard on ourselves as a coaching group and as players as well, saying, ‘This isn’t good enough.’ ”

Of course, no mid-term assessment is possible without acknowledgement of their preposterous injury list. From Kingston’s two biggest summer signings, Demetri Catrakilis and Francis Saili, he has had a total of 44 minutes of Premiership action all season. He has been without his two first-choice hookers since October. Last month, of five No 9s, not one was available, so he had to sign short contracts on two more.

For the Ulster away leg, Kingston says, there were so few players available that “my cat could have picked the squad”. He also says: “I have no idea what my best team is because of the number of players unavailable.”

This also allows him to speculate on what could be achieved when the troops start to return. “I have openly said, ‘I want us to be champions of England’,” he admits. “The players want us to be champions of England, too.”

Right now, that seems like wishful thinking, with Harlequins ninth and closer in points to the bottom than the top. Yet they have so many good players, they genuinely do have top-four potential.

At the start of the month, Kingston told his squad: “You only have four Premiership games between now and February, at which point the injury situation will have improved; hang on in there in the Premiership table for those four games, and then fourth spot and the play-offs remain a possibility.” In other words, these games are pivotal; the season lives or dies by them.

They started by beating Saracens but defeat by Newcastle means that today and Sale Sharks next weekend are massive. So why the inconsistency?

“It’s a few things,” Brown said, “some of which we wouldn’t want to air in public. The international and senior players try and drive it. But we can’t always be doing it. That’s probably why you see the frustration sometimes. We try to take ownership of a lot of stuff, but it’s not just us, the coaches and the other players need to do that as well.”

Now, if ever, is the time for the whole squad. Kingston is sure that they are making progress. “I am not just convinced, I know we are,” he says. “This side is way better than last year’s.”

It sounds great. For those one-off victories, it looks great, too. Today is called Big Game Ten. What Harlequins actually need is ten big games, starting now.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
quins4ever (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:32
Thanks Cookie. Sorry about the link. Have updated the post with a link that should work.

But it was the specific highlighted comments from Mike Brown that I was posting about, which referred to other players AND the coaches:
“It’s a few things,” Brown said, “some of which we wouldn’t want to air in public. The international and senior players try and drive it. But we can’t always be doing it. That’s probably why you see the frustration sometimes. We try to take ownership of a lot of stuff, but it’s not just us, the coaches[u][/u] and the other players need to do that as well.”

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 15:40
Quite a rare detailed article on club rugby from a mainstream newspaper, and it seems to pick up very well what our issues are.

Great at times, terrible at others. Injuries causing issues, but not the only thing to blame.

All been said before of course but it's always interesting to see the view from the outside.

The two key parts for me, where we've actually got quotes from people within the club are:

1. It is very worrying if Brown doesn't think the coaches are pulling their weight, let alone his views on the other players. It's not really something he should be saying in public either way, but if that's what he thinks it isn't great.

2. It really really worries me that JK can say something like 'this side is way better than last year's' based on what we've seen this season. I know he's not going to come out and say 'we're utterly useless' but it does all sound a bit deluded, particularly as this was said before the Northampton win.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
T-Bone (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 16:59
Very interesting.

I know I've questioned the commitment from some players at times, and various posters think that's an outrageous thing to say. It seems Brown might think the same.

You hear rumours of certain trainers being lazy in training, too interested in their plans for the weekend and their trip to Infernos, etc. All rumour of course, but there's usually no smoke without fire.

JK's comment about this year's team being way better than last year's is bizarre. I'm not sure that performances and results back him up, and I'm not sure it's true in terms of the squad either.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 17:37
I think we have a better squad than last year and I think there has been an improvement in attitude.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 18:48
I agree QP this years squad is stronger. Compare a few players who are new to last years leaverssad smileynot all like for like but same position)

Better off:

Marcus Smith is playing far better than NEV was last year(Wasps at home aside). Legend as NEV is his days were numbered before last season and we now have an absolute star who has been the spark for everything in our attack.
Catrakilis I haven’t seen much of but can’t be worse than Jackson.
Bothma has done more in 3 games than I saw Naoupu do last season.
Saili has yet to really feature but it doesn’t take a wise man to guess he would be better than Hopper.(Lowe doesn’t count given how few games he has played and didn’t play any last season)
Boyce looks to be a useful addition. Owen Evans wasn’t bad but hardly played.
Elia Elia looks like the makings of a top player

Waiting to find out:

Lewis is yet to prove better than Dickson but hasn’t had game time.
Glynn was a replacement for Twomey who is still on the books.

All in all I would agree with JK.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
MrOther (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:10
Quote:
TitusQuin
I agree QP this years squad is stronger.
...
All in all I would agree with JK.

I'm no fan of John Kingston, but I have no quarrel with his comment that "[t]his side is way better than last year’s". He might very well be right, but until he gets them performing to something like their potential he's still failing.

Having said that, there were only positives to take from BG10 in my opinion. Yeah, OK, Saints are struggling and we should've given then a caning, but we did just that. Job done, JK. No complaint. Now we really have to back it up against Sale. We should be able to go up there and win, exactly as we should have been able to go up to Newcastle and win.

I hope and believe that our senior players are Quins to the core and deeply loyal to the club. That first Chris Robshaw (*) and now Mike Brown are publicly hinting at shortcomings in the coaching set-up is very worrying. These guys don't make comments like that lightly.


(* comment in the press a few weeks ago about how well coached the Saracens guys are)

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
DOK. (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:20
Can I point out one more time than JK is not a coach?

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 19:32
Quote:
DOK
Can I point out one more time than JK is not a coach?

Why not, DOK - go on!



BB

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Rocker (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 20:34
It is a bit of a worry if senior players are coming out of those sort of comments. The comments are in line with what some of us have been worried about all this season and some of last too. A lack of commitment, a lack of quality coaching, a lack of game plan, or plan b,c,d etc.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 21:40
Quote:
Rocker
It is a bit of a worry if senior players are coming out of those sort of comments. The comments are in line with what some of us have been worried about all this season and some of last too. A lack of commitment, a lack of quality coaching, a lack of game plan, or plan b,c,d etc.

It also fits with the idea that there’s a group of senior/international players who think they’re in charge and the dressing room is unbalanced.

This is O’Shea’s fault. He gave them all the power then didn’t create a side that worked without them.

We should have ditched a decent tranche of players since 2012 but instead we’ve clung onto them and not built for the future. Now they think they know better.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 21:56
Why has nobody lambasted the article for this alone:

Quote:
Of course, no mid-term assessment is possible without acknowledgement of their preposterous injury list.

Apparently it's not a valid excuse for anything.

And why does nobody mock this statement:

Quote:
Yet they have so many good players, they genuinely do have top-four potential.

Personally I think it's a good, balanced article. Hopefully a victory over Sale will restore confidence for the players, and also for the fans.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
02 January, 2018 22:50
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Rocker
It is a bit of a worry if senior players are coming out of those sort of comments. The comments are in line with what some of us have been worried about all this season and some of last too. A lack of commitment, a lack of quality coaching, a lack of game plan, or plan b,c,d etc.

It also fits with the idea that there�s a group of senior/international players who think they�re in charge and the dressing room is unbalanced.

This is O�Shea�s fault. He gave them all the power then didn�t create a side that worked without them.

We should have ditched a decent tranche of players since 2012 but instead we�ve clung onto them and not built for the future. Now they think they know better.

I think you're right about COS starting it all but the way to sort that was never to perpetuate the problem by keeping everyone other than COS on the coaching staff.

It's why I think we need a total shake up.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 07:10
It’s a double edged sword. MB is being honest and voicing what we as fans are seeing every week. But in going public he is showing his personal frustration with the situation and has given a peek into what is happening behind the closed doors of the club.

Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

We have been compared to Saints but I don’t think anyone from them has stood out in the same way...I might be wrong. Gloucester were in a similar position of underachieving over a number of seasons but Ackerman seems to have changed some of that but with some player changes and his “magic”. From the outside it’s difficult to know what that was. The majority of the coaching voices have been the same for a number of years. I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Bedfordshire Boy (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 08:52
Quote:
Kent Fan
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

Not the way I see it at all, this is a guy who just wants his team to do better and perform to their potential.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 09:42
Quote:
Bedfordshire Boy
Quote:
Kent Fan
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

Not the way I see it at all, this is a guy who just wants his team to do better and perform to their potential.

I'd agree with you BB.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 09:43
I agree B.B. but to openly voice this to a hack is indication that he is frustrated, has voiced this internally for sometime and can’t see anything changing with the current incumbents in place.

This must be of interest to other clubs who could maybe be tempted to take him on.

Regretfully I think his England place for the RWC might be in doubt with the emergence of younger choices for FB. Watson is pressing hard this could be MB’s last 6 nations as first choice. I have always loved his approach and style but feel he missed out on England when he was probably at his best. His club trophy cupboard is a bit bare and how would I know but maybe he wants some higher European silverware before he finishes.

Always thought he’d be a good fit at either Sarries Wasps or Tigers...I just hope he stays and finishes at Quins but wouldn’t blame him if he went.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 10:35
Quote:
Kent Fan
It’s a double edged sword. MB is being honest and voicing what we as fans are seeing every week. But in going public he is showing his personal frustration with the situation and has given a peek into what is happening behind the closed doors of the club.
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

We have been compared to Saints but I don’t think anyone from them has stood out in the same way...I might be wrong. Gloucester were in a similar position of underachieving over a number of seasons but Ackerman seems to have changed some of that but with some player changes and his “magic”. From the outside it’s difficult to know what that was. The majority of the coaching voices have been the same for a number of years. I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

I'm not sure, but haven't Exeter had the same coaching team for quite some time?

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 10:41
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Rocker
It is a bit of a worry if senior players are coming out of those sort of comments. The comments are in line with what some of us have been worried about all this season and some of last too. A lack of commitment, a lack of quality coaching, a lack of game plan, or plan b,c,d etc.

It also fits with the idea that there�s a group of senior/international players who think they�re in charge and the dressing room is unbalanced.

This is O�Shea�s fault. He gave them all the power then didn�t create a side that worked without them.

We should have ditched a decent tranche of players since 2012 but instead we�ve clung onto them and not built for the future. Now they think they know better.

I think you're right about COS starting it all but the way to sort that was never to perpetuate the problem by keeping everyone other than COS on the coaching staff.

It's why I think we need a total shake up.

Yes indeed. Sadly doing it all at once isn't going to be pain free if it happens. It needed a continuous process of new blood in all areas, slowly in order to make sure we developed and built for the future after 2012, but we didn't and the last few seasons are the result.

I have nothing against Kingston if he can change things, but there have only been glimpses so far. Hopefully for everyone the new players will be able to play a match soon and we'll see how we look come 6 nations.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
DOK. (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 10:45
but the shake up in the coaching team has been Rowntree/Jones, Easter and Evans. I have said before I think the scrum was better coached under Kingston, our attack is an exercise in running sideways (until you give it to Walker) and our defence made of tissue paper.

I pin my hopes on less injuries, a more settled side, a bit more confidence and the return of some good players.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:01
Quote:
DOK
Can I point out one more time than JK is not a coach?

But he is responsible for the coaching. This is why Mallinder (DOR) was sacked, in part because he didn't cull Dorian West (Head Coach) who is widely considered to be the biggest part of the problem.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:03
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Kent Fan
It’s a double edged sword. MB is being honest and voicing what we as fans are seeing every week. But in going public he is showing his personal frustration with the situation and has given a peek into what is happening behind the closed doors of the club.
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

We have been compared to Saints but I don’t think anyone from them has stood out in the same way...I might be wrong. Gloucester were in a similar position of underachieving over a number of seasons but Ackerman seems to have changed some of that but with some player changes and his “magic”. From the outside it’s difficult to know what that was. The majority of the coaching voices have been the same for a number of years. I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

I'm not sure, but haven't Exeter had the same coaching team for quite some time?

Way too cozy with former player Baxter moving straight into coaching them.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:38
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Kent Fan
It’s a double edged sword. MB is being honest and voicing what we as fans are seeing every week. But in going public he is showing his personal frustration with the situation and has given a peek into what is happening behind the closed doors of the club.
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

We have been compared to Saints but I don’t think anyone from them has stood out in the same way...I might be wrong. Gloucester were in a similar position of underachieving over a number of seasons but Ackerman seems to have changed some of that but with some player changes and his “magic”. From the outside it’s difficult to know what that was. The majority of the coaching voices have been the same for a number of years. I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

I'm not sure, but haven't Exeter had the same coaching team for quite some time?

Way too cozy with former player Baxter moving straight into coaching them.

1. He was coaching University of Exeter
2. He started as Forward Coach
3. They were only in the Championship when he started
4. He took over in March of 2009 and was only acting HC, so effectively had a short trial

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:47
Sounds like a similar career trajectory to Minty, although obviously Minty is a good few years behind Baxter. Doesn't stop people pontificating about the cosiness around Minty's appointment though.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 11:52
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Sounds like a similar career trajectory to Minty, although obviously Minty is a good few years behind Baxter. Doesn't stop people pontificating about the cosiness around Minty's appointment though.

Agreed. Not comfortable with Minty in his current role, but Baxter did have an easier introduction and sounds like he's got more about him coaching-wise. He was quickly integrated into England's coaching group.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Stooperman (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:10
In JK's defence, the signings who have not succumbed to injury have largely been very effective. I'm thinking of Boyce, Swainston, Ellia, and Glyn here. None of them were particularly heralded, but they have made good solid contributions to the side. I think most people have been impressed by Bothma. Saili has also looked good in the few minutes we have seen him. I think Smith's emergence though not unexpected, has caught a few people by surprise in terms of just how quickly he has become accustomed to premiership rugby - so Catrakillis may or may not be a mistake, we don't know yet.

But already, the list above contains significantly more successful signings than CoS made during his tenure. I can think of Hopper, Ward and Big Mo as successes. Then the list of Sackeys, Kennedys, Fairbrothers, PDJs and various other disasters seems to exceed the successes.

In addition, NEv is looking like a good attack coach & the last two games have looked a bit better defensively. So I think Minty gets until the end of this season. Mapletoft as head coach may be part of the problem. If he is, lets see whether JK deals with it.

JK was not an inspiring appointment, but at the moment he is all we've got. I'm quite excited to see what he does with the Jamie Roberts(assuming he doesn't re-sign) and Marlande Yarde money.

As I'm sure everyone knows, I rather think that Ellis and the pension company are a lot more of the problem.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:24
Quote:
Kent Fan
I agree B.B. but to openly voice this to a hack is indication that he is frustrated, has voiced this internally for sometime and can’t see anything changing with the current incumbents in place.
This must be of interest to other clubs who could maybe be tempted to take him on.

Regretfully I think his England place for the RWC might be in doubt with the emergence of younger choices for FB. Watson is pressing hard this could be MB’s last 6 nations as first choice. I have always loved his approach and style but feel he missed out on England when he was probably at his best. His club trophy cupboard is a bit bare and how would I know but maybe he wants some higher European silverware before he finishes.

Always thought he’d be a good fit at either Sarries Wasps or Tigers...I just hope he stays and finishes at Quins but wouldn’t blame him if he went.

With all due respect, you seem to be clutching at any straw which would see Mike leaving Quins... Your conclusions all lead in one direction... it's as if you've decided on a narrative and are moulding your view of the facts to fit it.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Fearless Fred (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:33
Where does Graeme Bowerbank (Head of Rugby Operations) fit into the structure? Does JK report to him?

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
akb1 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:39
Quote:
Fearless Fred
Where does Graeme Bowerbank (Head of Rugby Operations) fit into the structure? Does JK report to him?
I would have thought he reported to JK

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:46
Quote:
Fearless Fred
Where does Graeme Bowerbank (Head of Rugby Operations) fit into the structure? Does JK report to him?

There's zero chance of that.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
T-Bone (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:47
Culture is CoS's fault and Brown is going to lose his England place and leave. So bored of these two gems.

Most of the rumours you hear tend to suggest that it is the more junior players who've come through the academy at a time when we were doing well in the league who are rather entitled and have a poor attitude. So if CoS was guilty of letting the senior players have too much say, I'm not sure how he's to blame for others having a poor attitude.

A lot of the England players rave about the fact that in camp, from Wednesday onwards the players lead the training based, and apparently Farrell and Ford have a big say in how things are run during the second half of the week so again, I think it would be normal for senior players to be heavily involved in how the week's training goes, not just during games.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:47
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Kent Fan
It’s a double edged sword. MB is being honest and voicing what we as fans are seeing every week. But in going public he is showing his personal frustration with the situation and has given a peek into what is happening behind the closed doors of the club.
Open criticism of some of the other players and coaches would seem to indicate he wants to be somewhere else.

We have been compared to Saints but I don’t think anyone from them has stood out in the same way...I might be wrong. Gloucester were in a similar position of underachieving over a number of seasons but Ackerman seems to have changed some of that but with some player changes and his “magic”. From the outside it’s difficult to know what that was. The majority of the coaching voices have been the same for a number of years. I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

I'm not sure, but haven't Exeter had the same coaching team for quite some time?

Yes, and they are following up a title miles ahead at the top of the league.

We followed up a title with a slide downwards.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 12:58
Quote:
T-Bone
Culture is CoS's fault and Brown is going to lose his England place and leave. So bored of these two gems.
Most of the rumours you hear tend to suggest that it is the more junior players who've come through the academy at a time when we were doing well in the league who are rather entitled and have a poor attitude. So if CoS was guilty of letting the senior players have too much say, I'm not sure how he's to blame for others having a poor attitude.


JK has said one of his main priorities since becoming DOR is to improve the culture and attitude. That doesn't mean COS was necessarily at fault. And just because a player's or team's attitude can be improved it doesn't mean that their attitude is poor.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 14:02
It is possible to have a great attitude but be low on confidence.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 15:01
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Sounds like a similar career trajectory to Minty, although obviously Minty is a good few years behind Baxter. Doesn't stop people pontificating about the cosiness around Minty's appointment though.

Great player but totally different character.

Easter is jack the lad, leader of “the boys”.

May well be a good coach but not sure in our dressing room with all his buddies in a team that needed fresh thinking was the right answer.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 15:07
I don't know Easter personally and I have no experience of how he acted and interacted off the pitch as a player and how he acts and interacts now as a coach, so I can't refute anything you say.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 15:13
QQ just trying to think through why Mike would go so public and express the frustration to a newspaper.

To me it would seem he’s saying I’ve had enough.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 15:40
To me he's stating the obvious.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Cookie (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 15:45
Browny made similar comments after the last World Cup about his England team mates. Wouldn't read too much into it other than him trying to kick some of the up the @#$%&.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
raedarius (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:03
Quote:
Stooperman
JK was not an inspiring appointment, but at the moment he is all we've got. I'm quite excited to see what he does with the Jamie Roberts(assuming he doesn't re-sign) and Marlande Yarde money.

May be wrong but with a large chunk of the Academy moving, unheralded, into the main squad around the same time as Yarde leaving, I suspect that a fair amount of the Yarde money may have gone on them.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 16:04
Brown has never understood why everyone else does not always have his drive and ambition.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 17:45
Quote:
Cookie
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Sounds like a similar career trajectory to Minty, although obviously Minty is a good few years behind Baxter. Doesn't stop people pontificating about the cosiness around Minty's appointment though.

Agreed. Not comfortable with Minty in his current role, but Baxter did have an easier introduction and sounds like he's got more about him coaching-wise. He was quickly integrated into England's coaching group.

We don't know yet because Baxter started with a professional side in the championship after coaching the university. His forward pack may well have got minced in his early days of coaching if Exeter had been playing Prem rugby back then? Or maybe not but it isn't comparable at this stage.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 17:50
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Sounds like a similar career trajectory to Minty, although obviously Minty is a good few years behind Baxter. Doesn't stop people pontificating about the cosiness around Minty's appointment though.

Great player but totally different character.

Easter is jack the lad, leader of “the boys”.

May well be a good coach but not sure in our dressing room with all his buddies in a team that needed fresh thinking was the right answer.

It must be difficult for him and NEv having been a part of the team for so long but from watching and what others say they were the leading thinkers in the team and had very good rugby understanding which must be why JK saw fit to stick them straight onto the senior coaching staff. With this in mind it would be a big disappointment if they weren't coming up with 'fresh ideas'. However there is no way of us knowing or maybe they have but the rest of the team can't grasp it and that is part of the problem?

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Fursty (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 18:15
Kent Quin - The Brown quote is part of a much larger article and likely taken from a much wider conversation - I think you're reading way too much into it.

On the coaching front JK has already demoted Osborne - let's see if he decides Tofty needs to move on at the end of the season.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 22:24
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I don't know Easter personally and I have no experience of how he acted and interacted off the pitch as a player and how he acts and interacts now as a coach, so I can't refute anything you say.

Nice. Well spotted - it’s just my opinion that the guy is a bit of a bell-end. The “that’s £35k down the drain” World Cup comment and his twitter account conversations with his mates in the team and seeing him being snarky with Ugo on BT are enough for me.

Great player - not sure he’s a manager.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
03 January, 2018 23:20
I believed him when he said it was gallows humour. Considering the way he played the game I don't think for one minute he was more concerned about the money than the success. I don't think there's much value judging people on such minor snippets, but we all do it I suppose. Eg. I liked him even more when I found out Entourage was his favourite TV show some years back.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 00:42
Quote:
Kent Fan
...I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

OK - repeat the same cosy opinion, as seems "popular".

Apart from Exeter/Baxter, how about Sarries/McCall, Wasps/Young or Newcastle/Richards? Strange that those that have been there the longest are now 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the league. Still, having new coaches also works: Bath are 6th and Leicester (2 changes) 9th...

Only exception is Gloucester/Ackermann, but this wasn't a mid-season change. It does show that it doesn't need to be a "headline" coach to re-align a side though.

Mind you, he wouldn't go down well here, with his history of "nonchalant ion greed"...

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 07:10
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Kent Fan
I agree B.B. but to openly voice this to a hack is indication that he is frustrated, has voiced this internally for sometime and can’t see anything changing with the current incumbents in place.
This must be of interest to other clubs who could maybe be tempted to take him on.

Regretfully I think his England place for the RWC might be in doubt with the emergence of younger choices for FB. Watson is pressing hard this could be MB’s last 6 nations as first choice. I have always loved his approach and style but feel he missed out on England when he was probably at his best. His club trophy cupboard is a bit bare and how would I know but maybe he wants some higher European silverware before he finishes.

Always thought he’d be a good fit at either Sarries Wasps or Tigers...I just hope he stays and finishes at Quins but wouldn’t blame him if he went.

With all due respect, you seem to be clutching at any straw which would see Mike leaving Quins... Your conclusions all lead in one direction... it's as if you've decided on a narrative and are moulding your view of the facts to fit it.

And if you watched Watson at 15 for England, so far he’s pressing nothing. He was rubbish at international level.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
TitusQuin (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 09:57
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I believed him when he said it was gallows humour. Considering the way he played the game I don't think for one minute he was more concerned about the money than the success. I don't think there's much value judging people on such minor snippets, but we all do it I suppose. Eg. I liked him even more when I found out Entourage was his favourite TV show some years back.

Personally i think Minty is one of the most down to earth blokes at Quins. His pathway shows that. Never taken anything for granted and it only needed one teammate(likely known only rugby his whole life) to take that comment out of context to find its way in the papers.
He always seems very honest and i'm not on twitter but given that he most probably provokes opinion.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 10:12
Talking of honesty, it was Easter that named himself as saying that 35 grand comment. He didn't need to do that, no one else was being named for anything.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 10:36
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Kent Fan
...I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

OK - repeat the same cosy opinion, as seems "popular".

Apart from Exeter/Baxter, how about Sarries/McCall, Wasps/Young or Newcastle/Richards? Strange that those that have been there the longest are now 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the league. Still, having new coaches also works: Bath are 6th and Leicester (2 changes) 9th...

Only exception is Gloucester/Ackermann, but this wasn't a mid-season change. It does show that it doesn't need to be a "headline" coach to re-align a side though.

Mind you, he wouldn't go down well here, with his history of "nonchalant ion greed"...


Whoosh!!! Sorry Bolly me old mucker but you are going to have to explain that one......



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
quin_jon (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 11:30
Quote:
Scaramouche
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
Kent Fan
...I haven’t done any research but is there any other premiership team that have had the same coaches for as long as Quins. I appreciate Minty and NEV are new but they were players for years before. It’s too cosy for the coaches and squad....no new ideas, no new opinions, no appreciable change, no new faces. It’s hard to understand why this has been the chosen route.

OK - repeat the same cosy opinion, as seems "popular".

Apart from Exeter/Baxter, how about Sarries/McCall, Wasps/Young or Newcastle/Richards? Strange that those that have been there the longest are now 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the league. Still, having new coaches also works: Bath are 6th and Leicester (2 changes) 9th...

Only exception is Gloucester/Ackermann, but this wasn't a mid-season change. It does show that it doesn't need to be a "headline" coach to re-align a side though.

Mind you, he wouldn't go down well here, with his history of "nonchalant ion greed"...


Whoosh!!! Sorry Bolly me old mucker but you are going to have to explain that one......

My guess is it's an anagram which includes a banned substance.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 16:47
Quote:
quin_jon
Quote:
Scaramouche
Whoosh!!! Sorry Bolly me old mucker but you are going to have to explain that one......

My guess is it's an anagram which includes a banned substance.

Correct...

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
MrOther (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 18:06
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I believed him when he said it was gallows humour. Considering the way he played the game I don't think for one minute he was more concerned about the money than the success.

Agree. I've wanted to make this point for a while, but didn't have the phrase "gallows humour" to hand. That he got deselected for a bit of dark humour is symptomatic of the sort of boy-scout prudishness which made bomber Lancaster unsuited to the job.

(For the record: I was pro-bomber at the time, but events proved me wrong.)

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 07:48
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
quin_jon
Quote:
Scaramouche
Whoosh!!! Sorry Bolly me old mucker but you are going to have to explain that one......

My guess is it's an anagram which includes a banned substance.

Correct...

Can't get any solvers to work that one out.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
raedarius (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 08:01
One of the words is "Nandrolone". The other word is an anagram of "chatinge",,,

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
quin_jon (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 09:31
Quote:
raedarius
One of the words is "Nandrolone". The other word is an anagram of "chatinge",,,

and that word is not teaching

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Kent Fan (IP Logged)
05 January, 2018 09:55
Ok so we’ve got the following

Good bunch of talented players but don’t play as a team so only sparks of individual skill are getting us wins.

Defensively players are not disciplined to play collectively so we are shipping tries.

Different sport but physiologically the same - Brian Clough seemed able to take average players whose strengths and weaknesses he worked out and moulder them into a good short term club side.

Our coaching team are experienced and some have played internationally so must be able to understand and identify the strength and weaknesses of the squad. The game plans and there must be more than one, must have been in JKs mind when he took over and the players he has brought into the club are those who he thought could and would be able to implement these plans on the pitch. I agree with the Military adage that every plan changes as soon as the enemy are engaged but the enemies plan(s) strengths and weaknesses to an extent are also known.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
06 January, 2018 12:50
Quote:
Kent Fan
I agree with the Military adage that every plan changes as soon as the enemy are engaged but the enemies plan(s) strengths and weaknesses to an extent are also known.

They’re using the earlier British military adages

1 “only engage an enemy if you have guns and they are armed solely with sharpened guava halves”

2 “keep throwing men hopelessly at the front until the only people left are Field Marshall Hague, his wife and their tortoise, Gerald.”

I’d say we picked number 2.

So JK’s tortoise is safe.

Unless he gets a bit peckish post training.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
06 January, 2018 14:05
For historical accuracy Hague's tortoise was called Alan.

 
Re: Problems run deep according to Mike Brown
blucherquin (IP Logged)
06 January, 2018 14:38
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
For historical accuracy Hague's tortoise was called Alan.

Damn it. You’re right.


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