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Another operating loss
RleQuin (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 16:19
The accounts report the operating loss for 2016/17 as unsustainably high at £5.6M (up from £2.97M the previous year).
Things are getting worse and worse
RleQ

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 16:40
Any explanation of the jump, RleQ? Is it the salary cap increase? We turn in crowds of 10K+ for prem home games so not much more we can do there.

I would guess ticket prices are going to have to go up next year then. Presumably we still intend to pay up to the salary cap, so no wriggle room there.

If we could do something with the Stoop outside of rugby (sweat the asset) then that would help, but what?

 
Re: Another operating loss
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:24
Didn't we also move the interest on various loans out to some other group company? Worrying.

I'm sure Quinky will be along to tell us that operating losses are a good thing.

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:26
They must be a good thing, Saracens have lots of them! smiling smiley

 
Re: Another operating loss
dr_miles (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:26
Reading the accounts it says that rugby income was £6.5m, less than a third of the total income, along with £6m central funding and £8m from commercial activities. I guess that adding £50 to a season ticket isn't going to dent those losses.

In the very last section of the accounts it states that "The ultimate parent company of Harlequin FC Holdings Limited is Union Mutual Pension Fund Limited, a company domiciled in Bermuda." - what's that about?

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:28
A man called Duncan Saville ultimately owns Harlequins. He's an Australian money man. I'm guessing this is where it's cost effective to have Harlequins in his company structure. Actually in the blurb for Harlequins FC Holding Ltd he's listed as being resident in Bermuda. So maybe that's why the company now owning us is in Bermuda when it used to be Malaysia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 17:34 by DOK.

 
Re: Another operating loss
johnlid (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:59
Not sure a loss making rugby club is a good investment for a pension fund unless it's got one eye on the potential development value of the land. We could always move in with a football club. I presume Wycombe Wanderers could do with a tenant, it had one before



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 18:01 by johnlid.

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 17:59
I never understood this balance sheet thing.
Can anyone explain where the big jump in operating loss came from?
I looked at the comparisons, and my best guess was on page 8 where Administrative Expenses jumped from 4.2m in 2016 to 6.7m in 2017.

Accounts Here if you want to look yourself

 
Re: Another operating loss
Mayor West (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 18:04
I've often wondered why there isn't a restaurant permanently at the stoop. There's parking and the cooking facilities must already be there. Would one of the bars run like a pub bring in added income? In the email they sent out it inferred that more revenue needed to be raised from the stadium/ground.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Stooperman (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 18:17
£1.2m was spent on debentures at Twickenham. I can see the logic of this, as they are billed as investments. I presume this is for the purpose of entertaining corporate clients and generating income.

Despite the massive operating loss, the shareholders are actually £2m better off than they were last year, because surveyors were commissioned to revalue the property, resulting in an uplift of £8m. Presumably, the minute they get the planning permission, their investment will pay off and the property value will rocket. In the meantime, they avoided having to inject massive amounts of cash by having a bond issue.

The club is seriously short on cash now though, with £650k in the bank. A bit of discipline on the commercial debtors front should sort that out, as we are owed £5m by debtors (sponsors and PRL I guess.)

If it weren't for guarantess from the parent company, Mosaic Limited, the club would have a going concern qualification. I.e it wouldn't last the year. But don't panic, that's always been the case.

We are paying up to the salary cap of £8.5m for senior and academy squads. Turnover increased sufficiently to cover the increas in cost of sales (mostly playing and coaching costs I guess). The mystery is the £2.6m jump in admin costs. there isn't sufficient detail in the accounts to work out what the £2.6m consists of but the blurb says it is investment in the future of the club. Quite a lot of it may well be consultants, planning permission, lawyers fees etc realting to the ground development, but thats specualtion on my part.

Bottom line, like most rugby clubs, Halrequins is unsustainable as a business without rich backers. Ultimately its a porperty portfolio with a rugby club attached. The rugby club will make tolerable losses unless it gets relegated!

 
Re: Another operating loss
RleQuin (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 18:29
Interestingly, both Duncan Saville and Charles Jillings became directors last November.
Does this mean something?
RleQ

 
Re: Another operating loss
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 19:04
Im guessing the stadium redevelopment will be a chance to get more income all year round from the ground

 
Re: Another operating loss
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 19:13
Quote:
Mayor West
I've often wondered why there isn't a restaurant permanently at the stoop. There's parking and the cooking facilities must already be there. Would one of the bars run like a pub bring in added income? In the email they sent out it inferred that more revenue needed to be raised from the stadium/ground.

I refer you to the average length of time a restaurant remains open in Twickenham

Just look at the empty retail/restaurant space in town and then imagine anyone going down the 316.

 
Re: Another operating loss
DazzaS (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 19:28
I remember when the chief executive said we would be turning a a profit by now years ago. This is something that he is responsible for and surely should be made accountable for this failing.

Not only are we continuing to make losses by the loss is growing year by year. On that alone in any company he would be seen as a poor CEO and shown the door.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Stooperman (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 19:39
Quote:
DazzaS
I remember when the chief executive said we would be turning a a profit by now years ago. This is something that he is responsible for and surely should be made accountable for this failing.
Not only are we continuing to make losses by the loss is growing year by year. On that alone in any company he would be seen as a poor CEO and shown the door.


Well yes, but then certain posters on this board would call you a conspiracy theorist is you pointed out that the accounts are fantastically opaque for a £20m turnover company and that the CEO is a million miles from his stated objective yet somehow miraculously still in post and bulletproof!

It stinks, and we all know it stinks.

And RleQ. no it doesn't mean anything that Jillings and Savile became directors. This is a relatively new company which has only just become active it bought the previous companies including Twickenham Estates and HarleQuins RFC (or whatever it was called) during the year 2017. They're just doing their company secretarial work and getting the paperwork sorted. Basically another re-structure has taken place and the ultimate pension company owner is now located in the caribbean instead of Malaysia.

The one area where they may have been naughty is in not consulting the bondholders. If I were one of the bondholders, I'd check whether you had to be formally notified of a change of control or corporate restructure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 20:11 by DOK.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 20:02
Quote:
Stooperman
Ultimately its a porperty portfolio with a rugby club attached.

I'm quite sure the rest of your assessment is accurate (I wouldn't really know but it looks good smiling smiley) however IIRC the ground was separated from the club when the companies were originally set up, i.e the success or failure of the club as a business has no bearing on the property assets or vice versa.



BB

 
Re: Another operating loss
Stooperman (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 20:11
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
Stooperman
Ultimately its a porperty portfolio with a rugby club attached.

I'm quite sure the rest of your assessment is accurate (I wouldn't really know but it looks good smiling smiley) however IIRC the ground was separated from the club when the companies were originally set up, i.e the success or failure of the club as a business has no bearing on the property assets or vice versa.

They've changed the structure again if you have a look at the new accounts. But your point is valid, the results reported are for let call it Company A. Company A is a shell company which during the year bought 97% of Company B (the rugby club), & 100% of Company C (the land owning company). So the demise of the rugby club, whilst not affecting the reults of the land owning company would ultimately be detrimental to the holding company. I think the debt is spread over three companies, so there may actually be a scenario under which the demise of the rugby club increases the net value of the Holding Company!!!

All good fun,

 
Re: Another operating loss
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 20:48
Quote:
All good fun,

Yes, I'm sure it is. Cheers! smiling smiley



BB

 
Re: Another operating loss
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 22:01
Quote:
RodneyRegis

I'm sure Quinky will be along to tell us that operating losses are a good thing.

It's not good or bad necessarily. There are many other factors to consider. To simply say it's bad is akin to people who holler that well known companies not paying tax on huge turnover is a terrible thing.

The big questions are why are they making a loss, and what are they doing about it.

I haven't looked through the accounts but from what I see, I'm not worried at all. The net worth has increased and that's far more important.

Ultimately these accounts are produced by people who know far more than I do and doubtless all is not transparent. It rarely is.

Sorry if that disappoints you.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Mayor West (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 22:01
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Mayor West
I've often wondered why there isn't a restaurant permanently at the stoop. There's parking and the cooking facilities must already be there. Would one of the bars run like a pub bring in added income? In the email they sent out it inferred that more revenue needed to be raised from the stadium/ground.

I refer you to the average length of time a restaurant remains open in Twickenham

Just look at the empty retail/restaurant space in town and then imagine anyone going down the 316.

There would be minimal set up costs and what about getting our celebrity chef supporter on board. Did you know that there is a restaurant next door in the college. It's a training one but is busy even though you need to book in advance. Don't forget that there would be no rent or rates as they are already paid for .

 
Re: Another operating loss
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 January, 2018 22:05
One other thing... We may be making profit now, or smaller losses. These accounts will be at least 6 months old.

I'd be very interested to know how much they made from the summer concerts. That's an area I think they could exploit.

I do know they replaced the pitch back in June, but I don't know if they do this every year. It could explain some losses?

 
Re: Another operating loss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 01:07
I must admit, I couldn't give a toss.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Monte (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 07:25
Quins took no risk on Elton John this was a set hire price of the grounds. They did take the risk and profit/loss on Little Mix.

 
Re: Another operating loss
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 07:49
Quote:
DOK
I never understood this balance sheet thing.
Can anyone explain where the big jump in operating loss came from?
I looked at the comparisons, and my best guess was on page 8 where Administrative Expenses jumped from 4.2m in 2016 to 6.7m in 2017.

Accounts Here if you want to look yourself

That link doesn't work for me.

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 07:51
It looks like it's a problem with their server. It may be down for weekend maintenance or some such. Check back a bit later (after lunch?) and see if it's back. They did say something about it being a beta site or some such.

 
Re: Another operating loss
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 08:57
Quote:
DOK
It looks like it's a problem with their server. It may be down for weekend maintenance or some such. Check back a bit later (after lunch?) and see if it's back. They did say something about it being a beta site or some such.

Well - not too long after lunch, I hope. I may well be going to a rugby match (without much enthusiasm, I must admit!)

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 09:26
Try this link

then filing history then the accounts from 09 Jan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/01/2018 09:27 by DOK.

 
Re: Another operating loss
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 11:02
Quote:
DOK
Try this link
then filing history then the accounts from 09 Jan

Yes, that worked. Thank you.

What happened to Sean Fitzpatrick? He used to be a director - didn't he?

There was another director, lived in Esher, his name escapes me, used to be a director?

There is nothing that I can see, that shows those two resigning?

 
Re: Another operating loss
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 11:06
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
DOK
Try this link
then filing history then the accounts from 09 Jan

Yes, that worked. Thank you.

What happened to Sean Fitzpatrick? He used to be a director - didn't he?

There was another director, lived in Esher, his name escapes me, used to be a director?

There is nothing that I can see, that shows those two resigning?

Were they board directors? Or was "Director" just a nice title?

 
Re: Another operating loss
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 12:04
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
DOK
Try this link
then filing history then the accounts from 09 Jan

Yes, that worked. Thank you.

What happened to Sean Fitzpatrick? He used to be a director - didn't he?

There was another director, lived in Esher, his name escapes me, used to be a director?

There is nothing that I can see, that shows those two resigning?

Were they board directors? Or was "Director" just a nice title?

The former.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 12:50
Fitzpatrick is a director of Harlequins Football Club Limited.

 
Re: Another operating loss
blucherquin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 14:39
Quote:
Mayor West
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
Mayor West
I've often wondered why there isn't a restaurant permanently at the stoop. There's parking and the cooking facilities must already be there. Would one of the bars run like a pub bring in added income? In the email they sent out it inferred that more revenue needed to be raised from the stadium/ground.

I refer you to the average length of time a restaurant remains open in Twickenham

Just look at the empty retail/restaurant space in town and then imagine anyone going down the 316.

There would be minimal set up costs and what about getting our celebrity chef supporter on board. Did you know that there is a restaurant next door in the college. It's a training one but is busy even though you need to book in advance. Don't forget that there would be no rent or rates as they are already paid for .

Sure - but itís a terrible place for it. I understand rents are a problem but restaurants are a massive gamble and itís not like you could walk from a nearby bar. Just look at York Street. Itís now half empty, and the empty places were bars and restaurants right in the heart of the town and a short walk from the train station and with a bus stop right outside.

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 14:52
I saw that SmokeHouse restaurant has changed it's name to The Palm Grill.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Mayor West (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 15:06
I was thinking more along the lines of Michelin than Harvester. Wherever they are you seem to have to book months in advance but I'm no restauranteur.

 
Re: Another operating loss
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 06:47
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Fitzpatrick is a director of Harlequins Football Club Limited.

This is what I was thinking of. What the difference is between the two, I don't know.

[beta.companieshouse.gov.uk]

 
Re: Another operating loss
GrubbyQuin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 08:31
Quote:
QuickerQuin
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Fitzpatrick is a director of Harlequins Football Club Limited.

This is what I was thinking of. What the difference is between the two, I don't know.

[beta.companieshouse.gov.uk]

Harlequin Football Club Limited is one company, Harlequin FC Holdings Limited is another company. Pretty straightforward really.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 08:48
Quote:
Mayor West
I was thinking more along the lines of Michelin than Harvester. Wherever they are you seem to have to book months in advance but I'm no restauranteur.

Is a sports ground really where you would set up a Michelin quality restaurant if you were a talented chef?

 
Re: Another operating loss
Bellyfull (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 12:58
Are the women included yet as they must be costing a fair bit with little return ?

 
Re: Another operating loss
ArchQuin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 13:22
Ellis must go 😴🙄

 
Re: Another operating loss
DOK (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 15:06
I think the HARLEQUIN FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED is a subsidiary of HARLEQUIN FC HOLDINGS LIMITED. I think it's the playing end of life.

The bit that owns the Stoop is HARLEQUIN ESTATES (TWICKENHAM) LIMITED

I think the HOLDINGS company owns both of them

 
Re: Another operating loss
Mayor West (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 16:49
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Mayor West
I was thinking more along the lines of Michelin than Harvester. Wherever they are you seem to have to book months in advance but I'm no restauranteur.

Is a sports ground really where you would set up a Michelin quality restaurant if you were a talented chef?

I was only thinking of other ways for the club to make money. All the facilities are already there, there's no rent or rates. There is a huge car park on a major road with thousands of houses within walking distance. The club is high profile so publicity is not a problem. If the product is good people will come. There is a place in Petersham that isn't even on a road, limited parking and nowhere near a high street. In fact it's not even properly indoors. It is always packed.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Brown Bottle (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 19:43
Quote:
If the product is good people will come.

That's what Ann Summers said.



BB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/01/2018 19:54 by Brown Bottle.

 
Re: Another operating loss
Mayor West (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 22:12
I hope you checked wether you can use a good gag BB. You don't want to upset anybody.(absolutely no pun intended, inferred or suggested .......honest).

 
Re: Another operating loss
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 22:29
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
If the product is good people will come.

That's what Ann Summers said.

She was all mouth...(Sm9)

 
Re: Another operating loss
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 12:25
Quote:
Bellyfull
Are the women included yet as they must be costing a fair bit with little return ?


I thought Tyrells were putting some money in along with central RFU Funding



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