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Positives and Negatives
Hellequin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 20:54
Positives: We won. No red cards/ bad yellows. Moments of great individual play. Kicking really good from open play, conversion and penalties.

Negatives: 1st half performance defence Conceded 4 trys, gave up 2 bonus points. Defence leaking points.

Feel free to add your views on both sides.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
miami mike (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 21:36
2 of the tries conceded were on a yellow. 15 v 15 we looked ok and when Smith / Tomua came on, better.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
kevin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 21:40
Lang n Smith future bright in midfield.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 21:42
Negative: Bothma will probably be out again for a couple of months or more. He'd been having a good game. To borrow from Mike Tyson - Bothma carries with bad intentions.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 22:15
How was the yellow not bad? No arms tackle nowhere near the ball. Two completely avoidable issues in one card. A professional yellow or a unjustified yellow is my idea of a non"bad" yellow.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 22:17
Quote:
Adi Nako
How was the yellow not bad? No arms tackle nowhere near the ball. Two completely avoidable issues in one card. A professional yellow or a unjustified yellow is my idea of a non"bad" yellow.

Some posters think it was unjustified. I'd agree with them.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 22:20
Elia's sidestep smiling smiley

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
ArchQuin (IP Logged)
13 January, 2018 22:56
The way the team never gave up and believed until the final whistle - positive
The first half when we constantly gave possession back to wasps allowing them to score points - negative

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 08:49
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Adi Nako
How was the yellow not bad? No arms tackle nowhere near the ball. Two completely avoidable issues in one card. A professional yellow or a unjustified yellow is my idea of a non"bad" yellow.

Some posters think it was unjustified. I'd agree with them.

Maybe it's because I watched it on tv, but I can not understand how it could be considered a contentious decision.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
blucherquin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 09:17
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
Adi Nako
How was the yellow not bad? No arms tackle nowhere near the ball. Two completely avoidable issues in one card. A professional yellow or a unjustified yellow is my idea of a non"bad" yellow.

Some posters think it was unjustified. I'd agree with them.

Maybe it's because I watched it on tv, but I can not understand how it could be considered a contentious decision.

Havent seen it on tv - but from the stands it just looked like a penalty. Assume it’s worse close up.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Rocker (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 09:22
What was it given for Adi?

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Dave L (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 09:28
Positives:
Getting the win from such a precarious position early on
Replacements making a difference and us not falling apart when they came on
Sinck, Care, Bothma, Dr Roberts, Lang, Elia all played well
Team spirit very evident
Crowd really got up for it

Negatives:
Line outs on the 5m line. Binned a couple of those yet again.
The sin bin spell was a shower - some rubbish defence
Injuries - Bothma and Brown a worry. Hope Walker isn’t too bad

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
jonf (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 09:32
Listened to the first half in KL and thought we may get mullered but a good last 10 minutes of first half was a good omen. Too tired to listen to the second half NI matter what...then reading about the second half gave me positive thoughts looking forward,
- Roberts is doing what he should have done on joining Quins. He was (to a major extent) rubbish but he is now class. If he can continue like this then sign him him up again, he br9ngs a lot.
- Lang is a good 10 and it questions if we actually need the Cat (an interesting situation for Quins management)
- Bothma is a great player and breaking his arm again is such bad luck
- the Chiz family of players are good, they bring so much Quins style and we do not appreciate what they all bring
- Danny Care is the best 9 there is...with respect to the guy from Wales...
- Marcus Smith is just pure class, I have no idea how someone who is in his teens has a quality like that. Well played getting him tied to the colours for a few years, he is worth it. He brings such fan pleasure!

Quins have annoyed me for a few seasons but the players are now starting to deliver a team.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Nev's Left Boot (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 09:40
Quins do leak points no doubt - but you have to recognise the skill of the opposition in scoring - Wasps scored a couple of really good tries. And that is o.k.

I thought our phase play was good, and built pressure in a way that we don't always!
I thought that we had a bit more zip from the rucks (not all the time but at points)
Scrum time was good, we seemed to have them (and the ref) in the right place after the first 20.

Bad - we cannot defend 5m line outs - don't know why - but we really cant!

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 10:25
According to TRP we only conceded 7 penalties. Hopefully it's a sign that discipline is improving.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 10:47
That is better

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Adi Nako (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 12:10
Quote:
Rocker
What was it given for Adi?

I can't remember what it was actually given for, but it was a shoulder charge on a player about 5m from the ball. I think it was technically the former, but neither offence probably warranted a yellow if done in isolation. I couldn't argue with a yellow given the combination of two issues.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 13:14
His left arm came out to go to wrap. I’d say it was more tackle than shoulder charge.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 14:09
Quote:
Adi Nako
Quote:
Rocker
What was it given for Adi?

I can't remember what it was actually given for, but it was a shoulder charge on a player about 5m from the ball. I think it was technically the former, but neither offence probably warranted a yellow if done in isolation. I couldn't argue with a yellow given the combination of two issues.

I haven't watched it back, but at the time I was amazed that Johnson was so far ahead of play - no dummy runner should be that far ahead! I thought the tackle was judged to be fine, but off the ball.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
godzilla73 (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 14:24
For me, the fact that Boyce was absolutely mullering Cooper-Woolley for most of the game at scrum time was a thing of great joy winking smiley

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
poorfour (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 14:36
From what I could see from the big screen in the ground, it looked as if Boyce slipped as Johnson got close to him, and had a choice between completing the tackle or not, but the collision was by that point unavoidable.

I can see that a card was a technically sound decision, but given how far ahead Johnson was, and how much of a meal of it he made, it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
DOK (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 14:44
Some good stats here to cheer you up

Well, on the positives

First and foremost: We never gave up. A few seasons ago we'd have been ushering them towards the try line from 60 minutes onwards.

Attack: Five tries!

Defence: We seem to operating a version that doesn't leave huge holes in it. Now the opposition have to work to breach our defence, before they just had to wait!


Discipline:
8 penalties in the end, but less of the brainless ones.

Negatives:

Defence: Still can't defend a rolling maul.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
poorfour (IP Logged)
14 January, 2018 14:53
Interesting from the stats that we won all our mails and had far more of them than Wasps, and we were better on rucks, scrums and lineouts.

The most interesting stat, though, was that we had one and a half times the number of defenders beaten than they did. That suggests to me that our first up defence is actually not that bad, but we are clearly struggling with getting width in our line, and with scramble defence after a line break.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Fanski (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 11:16
Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job?

Archie White is hopeless

14 points gifted as is the case most weeks

as usual we have to score 30 + to have a chance of winning that is not sustainable and why we are in the lower half of the table and out of the cup

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 11:19
Unfair on White

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
tani fuga fan boy (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 11:26
Quote:
HonkyTonk
Unfair on White

Agreed, I recall him throwing one rather silly pass during the match but to call out a 20(?) year old and call him hopeless is a tad aggressive.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
fandg2 (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 11:59
Quote:
Fanski

Archie White is hopeless


If that's the case, we beat Wasps with 14 players. Definite positive

(Unfortunately, I don't think he is hopeless)

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 12:11
Quote:
Fanski
I am hopeless.
14 posts of coprolite most weeks

And in alternative news...

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 12:53
Quote:
Fanski

Archie White is hopeless


When I read things like this, I wonder why some people are allowed near a keyboard...

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
never sleep (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 13:03
White won a turnover at one point in the second half where we were under pressure. This may even have been one of the turning points in the game.

But, back to the original thread:

Negatives
Suspaining more injuries - especially Bothma, as I can't see him returning this season

Positives
The "never say die" attitude.
See Big Chis playing well after the dark months of the concussion.
Seeing the effect of playing the game with two scrum halfs - maybe this should be a tactic.
Marcus Smith's performance during the last few minutes.
- and, Dave Ward mentioning the noise from the South Stand as being a motivating factor.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
DOK (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 13:35
Fanski needs to start watching games this season

In the Wasps game we won 13/15 lineouts (a completion rate of 86%)
In the Sale game we won 7/7
In BG10 we won 12/13
In Newcastle game we won 13/15

So "Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job? "

Interesting use of the word dire! smiling smiley

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
SiBolton (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 13:42
Positives, as other said the “ Never say die spirit” shown by the team
Honestly think we are improving with each game and haven’t seen that for a while as usually a good game is followed by a poor one ( still think we should have won at Sale)

Negatives, whilst it was a dead rubber, we have lost Bothma for a good few weeks and he really has been a great signing, add to that injuries to Brown, Walker

Other negatives real bored with useless, dire tags

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 13:44
I don't think our problem with the line out has been throwing/catching that much recently, more to do with what happens after we catch it!!

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 14:04
Quote:
DOK
Fanski needs to start watching games this season
In the Wasps game we won 13/15 lineouts (a completion rate of 86%)
In the Sale game we won 7/7
In BG10 we won 12/13
In Newcastle game we won 13/15

So "Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job? "

Interesting use of the word dire! smiling smiley

You forget the golden rule, DOK - facts are irrelevant when there's a dig to be had...

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 14:20
Quote:
Fanski
Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job?
Archie White is hopeless

14 points gifted as is the case most weeks

as usual we have to score 30 + to have a chance of winning that is not sustainable and why we are in the lower half of the table and out of the cup

Hang on, aren't you the guy who had a go at me for being overly negative?!

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
never sleep (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 14:32
[quote SiBolton]we have lost Bothma for a good few weeks and he really has been a great signing,/quote]
Bothma tweeted his X-Ray photo - I hope that it is only weeks - but - it is a clean break - so I think realistically, he is out for the season.
I 100% hope that he comes back next season though as he looks a real handful to the opposition.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 14:35
If you look at the photos on his twitter (click above in this thread). There is another snap of a previous broken arm, looks to be the other one to me?? I think he will be back, just may not be for a while.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 15:26
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Fanski
Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job?
Archie White is hopeless

14 points gifted as is the case most weeks

as usual we have to score 30 + to have a chance of winning that is not sustainable and why we are in the lower half of the table and out of the cup

Hang on, aren't you the guy who had a go at me for being overly negative?!

I think it was for being snide and rude. Obviously nothing wrong with talking about our players like they're dirt.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
kevin (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 17:04
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
Fanski

Archie White is hopeless


If that's the case, we beat Wasps with 14 players. Definite positive

(Unfortunately, I don't think he is hopeless)

I hope you mean “Fortunately...”

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Mayor West (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 17:37
For a game that had no consequence to the outcome for us the only negatives are the injuries. We beat a team that needed a result, came from 21 points down, we scored 5 tries with one inconclusive according to the TMO. I think some people expect us to win each game with a BP and not let the oppo score a point for there to be no negatives but I'm sure they would complain that the ball hadn't been put through the posts near the middle enough or too many passes for the tries.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
fandg2 (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 22:01
Quote:
kevin
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
Fanski

Archie White is hopeless


If that's the case, we beat Wasps with 14 players. Definite positive

(Unfortunately, I don't think he is hopeless)

I hope you mean “Fortunately...”

Mmmm still reads ok to me but then English grammar was never my strong suit lol.

It would have been a definite positive to have beaten Wasps with 14. Unfortunately White's not hopeless so we did'nt (beat Wasps with 14), was my intended meaning.

Sorry for any offence. My main pet hate on these forums is slagging off players. At the end of the day to be a professional rugby player they've been assessed since they were 14/15 yo by a double figure number of qualified coaches, all who probably know more about the game than the vast majority of any forum. At each stage in their careers they've passed several trials several times over and each time moved up a step to professional rugby. Player 'X' may not be supporter 'Y's cup of tea but they are certainly not hopeless or a donkey. Sorry rant over probably should have put this on it's own thread lol

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
15 January, 2018 22:18
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
kevin
Quote:
fandg2
Quote:
Fanski

Archie White is hopeless


If that's the case, we beat Wasps with 14 players. Definite positive

(Unfortunately, I don't think he is hopeless)

I hope you mean “Fortunately...”

Mmmm still reads ok to me but then English grammar was never my strong suit lol.

It would have been a definite positive to have beaten Wasps with 14. Unfortunately White's not hopeless so we did'nt (beat Wasps with 14), was my intended meaning.

Sorry for any offence. My main pet hate on these forums is slagging off players. At the end of the day to be a professional rugby player they've been assessed since they were 14/15 yo by a double figure number of qualified coaches, all who probably know more about the game than the vast majority of any forum. At each stage in their careers they've passed several trials several times over and each time moved up a step to professional rugby. Player 'X' may not be supporter 'Y's cup of tea but they are certainly not hopeless or a donkey. Sorry rant over probably should have put this on it's own thread lol

Well said. Only thing I'd say is that these days they're being assessed long before they're 14 years old. And yes, on a forum I think a lot of people don't appreciate the amount of hard work that these guys put in. I've asked many ex players whether they miss playing, and not one has said that they do. One told me that since his mid-teens he'd trained practically every day apart from a short break off-season; they get injured, they get battered, they are constantly in danger of a career threatening injury, or worse.

And then someone decides to claim they're useless, or a donkey... which to me, suggests two things: they don't have a clue about a professional rugby player's life, and they don't have a clue about respect.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Dibden (IP Logged)
16 January, 2018 13:18
I think we are doing better than last year which I largely attribute to Marcus Smith.However the DOR doesn’t want to recognise there is a real problem with defence and NE.If that were better we could be 4/5th level.Frustrated like many others on this obviousl failing

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
arniepie (IP Logged)
16 January, 2018 15:03
Well said QK , you wouldn’t get this far in a career if you were useless,the language can be sometimes emotive on here after a game but to describe someone as a donkey or useless is somewhat disrespectful

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Cookie (IP Logged)
16 January, 2018 15:18
[quote never sleep][quote SiBolton]we have lost Bothma for a good few weeks and he really has been a great signing,/quote]
Bothma tweeted his X-Ray photo - I hope that it is only weeks - but - it is a clean break - so I think realistically, he is out for the season.
I 100% hope that he comes back next season though as he looks a real handful to the opposition.[/quote]

3 broken arms in 6 months. Injuries were my worry before he got here and still are.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 01:29
Hang on, you were concerned we signed an injured player. I don't remember you expressing any fears that he would keep breaking his arm!

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Cookie (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 08:07
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Hang on, you were concerned we signed an injured player. I don't remember you expressing any fears that he would keep breaking his arm!

Nope. Was very clear he kept getting injured, banned and wasn't selected by the Bulls. Played 6 games in 18 months before joining us.

His ban was for a swinging arm, so maybe question marks about his tackling technique or at the very least he needs to adjust it. A ban and 3 broken arms would seem to suggest that.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 08:15
Yep, cookie can definitely bask in this one. He was roundly ridiculed for saying that he expected renners to miss more games than he played, as I remember.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Cookie (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 08:46
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Yep, cookie can definitely bask in this one. He was roundly ridiculed for saying that he expected renners to miss more games than he played, as I remember.

Thanks RR, although I take little satisfaction from it as he has been handy when he's played.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Mr_B (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 10:52
well most positives and negatives already stated above but for me watching Chis snr out run Wade leaving Wade on the floor after a missed tackle was brilliant.

As for the yellow the tackle was ok itself but apparently he took out a player off the ball so yellow. I really don't like that these days it's ok to have dummy runners that are 10 yards in front of the ball blocking defenders from making correct tackles. Think it was a harsh yellow (definite penalty) but by the rules the correct decision.

Harsh comments about Ward, think his lineouts were reasonable, way better than his waspie counterpart, has the odd wobble but so does every hooker. It would be interesting if there are any stats comparing lineout throw accuracy for each prem hooker? Personally I think we have a good team with some solid first teamers and reasonable back up squad players, I don't get the comments made to White, Ward or the others in other posts. The squad is good enough, our defence has not been and that for me is down to the coaching dept, the rest of our play has not been worse than the other prem teams, fix our defence and this team can compete for trophies.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
poorfour (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 13:56
Ward's issue is more that - like Tom Youngs for England - his wobbles tend to come at the most inopportune moments. Though I wonder how much of that is down to the caller rather than Wardy. As the ball sailed past the jumper and off beyond the end of the line on Saturday, I did wonder why anyone would call that throw when we were already under pressure in our own 22.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 14:00
Quote:
poorfour
Ward's issue is more that - like Tom Youngs for England - his wobbles tend to come at the most inopportune moments. Though I wonder how much of that is down to the caller rather than Wardy. As the ball sailed past the jumper and off beyond the end of the line on Saturday, I did wonder why anyone would call that throw when we were already under pressure in our own 22.

That's a very important point that some people overlook. If a throw is not straight, blame the hooker; if the lineout is lost, it could be the thrower, the catcher, or a the opponent... or any combination of them.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 14:19
Quote:
poorfour
Ward's issue is more that - like Tom Youngs for England - his wobbles tend to come at the most inopportune moments. Though I wonder how much of that is down to the caller rather than Wardy. As the ball sailed past the jumper and off beyond the end of the line on Saturday, I did wonder why anyone would call that throw when we were already under pressure in our own 22.

Yup it is definitely a problem that appears to occur in the most important lineouts, both defensively and in attack.

Whilst I'm sure some of the problems are sometimes caused by the jumpers/callers, it's been a big problem of Wards ever since he got into our team, so unless we're saying that every set of forwards we've had in his time at the club has problems jumping/calling, then I think it's fairly clear the issue is with Ward's throwing.

I love Ward and all that he brings to the team, but having a hooker who cannot throw has hampered us for a while. It looked like Buchanan may have been the answer but he was faltering before he got injured, and so far Elia hasn't been given enough of a chance to show he's the solution.

Either way, it's an area we need to look at if we're to progress.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
DOK (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 16:18
But what does it say when we win lineouts?

As I said

In the Wasps game we won 13/15 lineouts (a completion rate of 86%)
In the Sale game we won 7/7
In BG10 we won 12/13
In Newcastle game we won 13/15

I'm not going to go trawling through the stats of other teams, but I'd say that's not bad lineouting!

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 17:00
Quote:
DOK
But what does it say when we win lineouts?
As I said

In the Wasps game we won 13/15 lineouts (a completion rate of 86%)
In the Sale game we won 7/7
In BG10 we won 12/13
In Newcastle game we won 13/15

I'm not going to go trawling through the stats of other teams, but I'd say that's not bad lineouting!

Very telling stats which do fly in the face of the impression a lot of us have that we're not very good at line outs.

I wonder how many of those that we've lost are in crucial areas, and how many of those that we win are 'safe' lineouts where we could have used it as a better platform.

I don't think the perception that we're not great at lineouts is complete nonsense, but certainly those stats show that it's not that simple either.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 20:00
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 21:01
Quote:
talkshowhost86
Quote:
DOK
But what does it say when we win lineouts?
As I said

In the Wasps game we won 13/15 lineouts (a completion rate of 86%)
In the Sale game we won 7/7
In BG10 we won 12/13
In Newcastle game we won 13/15

I'm not going to go trawling through the stats of other teams, but I'd say that's not bad lineouting!

Very telling stats which do fly in the face of the impression a lot of us have that we're not very good at line outs.

I wonder how many of those that we've lost are in crucial areas, and how many of those that we win are 'safe' lineouts where we could have used it as a better platform.

I don't think the perception that we're not great at lineouts is complete nonsense, but certainly those stats show that it's not that simple either.

I think it's still a valid perception, although this season has seen a significant improvement in Ward/lineout, Care's box kicking and Marler's carrying.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
blucherquin (IP Logged)
17 January, 2018 21:17
Quote:
Fanski
Ward a liability on line outs as has has been since he joined - he just is dire - a captain who cannot do a basic part of his job?
Archie White is hopeless

14 points gifted as is the case most weeks

as usual we have to score 30 + to have a chance of winning that is not sustainable and why we are in the lower half of the table and out of the cup

Usual fake news...

- the line out worked well
- no he isn’t
- our defence has conceded the 3rd fewest points in Prem in last 4 games
- that isn’t why

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 07:29
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

As I pointed out it's not overwhelming evidence on its own.

But I suppose going for the cheap one liner rather than reading a post is easier so crack on.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 07:42
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Certainly seems that way! I thought our lineout has been pretty good of late. How many teams have 100% success?

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Cookie (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 07:59
Perception is the key.

Who remembers all those lineouts won between the 22s last Saturday?

But everyone remembers the one we lost on their 5m line.

So the takeaway from our lineout v Waist was that it failed when it mattered and all the good stuff is forgotten.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 08:00
3rd fewest points conceded over last 4 games - well that's cherry picking of the highest order isn't it. We could have scored around 40 fewer points and been in a much better position had we managed a couple more against sale and Newcastle, and it's the manner of the points we do concede - unanswered, avoidable tries early in a match. If this is a way of geeing up the troops then great, but if jk thinks our defence is in a good place it's a worry.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 08:53
Quote:
RodneyRegis
3rd fewest points conceded over last 4 games - well that's cherry picking of the highest order isn't it. We could have scored around 40 fewer points and been in a much better position had we managed a couple more against sale and Newcastle, and it's the manner of the points we do concede - unanswered, avoidable tries early in a match. If this is a way of geeing up the troops then great, but if jk thinks our defence is in a good place it's a worry.

Cherry picking indeed. We could be conceding even more points, but it wouldn't matter if we scored more than we conceded. Everything is relative.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
blucherquin (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 08:53
Quote:
RodneyRegis
3rd fewest points conceded over last 4 games - well that's cherry picking of the highest order isn't it. We could have scored around 40 fewer points and been in a much better position had we managed a couple more against sale and Newcastle, and it's the manner of the points we do concede - unanswered, avoidable tries early in a match. If this is a way of geeing up the troops then great, but if jk thinks our defence is in a good place it's a worry.

It’s clearly improved in the last few weeks. That’s what he was saying. Slow starts are still an issue.

But hey, lets pick apart everything to its tiniest perceived elements.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/01/2018 08:54 by blucherquin.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
blucherquin (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 08:56
Quote:
Cookie
Perception is the key.
Who remembers all those lineouts won between the 22s last Saturday?

But everyone remembers the one we lost on their 5m line.

So the takeaway from our lineout v Waist was that it failed when it mattered and all the good stuff is forgotten.

Glad i don’t go to your takeaway. Sounds depressing.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 09:14
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
3rd fewest points conceded over last 4 games - well that's cherry picking of the highest order isn't it. We could have scored around 40 fewer points and been in a much better position had we managed a couple more against sale and Newcastle, and it's the manner of the points we do concede - unanswered, avoidable tries early in a match. If this is a way of geeing up the troops then great, but if jk thinks our defence is in a good place it's a worry.

Cherry picking indeed. We could be conceding even more points, but it wouldn't matter if we scored more than we conceded. Everything is relative.

what matters is how many we score in each game compared to the opposition. Who cares if we score lots over a few games if it means we hammer one team then lose narrowly to the rest?

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 09:36
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Not really.

Winning uncontested lineouts in the middle of the park is pretty much a formality. The ones we lose are the ones in the 22 where the opposition actually go up. you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realise that we lose far too many lineouts near the line, or if we win them it's becuase we take a no-risk, low-pay-off route to 2 and the opposition defend our maul with ease. Looking at the average stats for lineouts in a whole match is completely missing the point - it's the pressure ones we're losing.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 10:26
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Not really.

Winning uncontested lineouts in the middle of the park is pretty much a formality. The ones we lose are the ones in the 22 where the opposition actually go up. you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realise that we lose far too many lineouts near the line, or if we win them it's becuase we take a no-risk, low-pay-off route to 2 and the opposition defend our maul with ease. Looking at the average stats for lineouts in a whole match is completely missing the point - it's the pressure ones we're losing.

So the ones we lose are an issue, that's not under dispute. But the ones we win are now measured on what happens after we've won them?

Sounds like you're having digs again.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 10:47
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Not really.

Winning uncontested lineouts in the middle of the park is pretty much a formality. The ones we lose are the ones in the 22 where the opposition actually go up. you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realise that we lose far too many lineouts near the line, or if we win them it's becuase we take a no-risk, low-pay-off route to 2 and the opposition defend our maul with ease. Looking at the average stats for lineouts in a whole match is completely missing the point - it's the pressure ones we're losing.

Exactly. Taking the stats in isolation is very simplistic. But I suppose if a simplistic approach backs up an argument then why try to look at it in any more detail?

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 11:23
I prefer one liners to self prepossessed diatribes tbh



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 11:40
Quote:
Scaramouche
I prefer one liners to self prepossessed diatribes tbh

Evidently.

Otherwise you would have realised that very little was prepossessed in the first place.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 11:53
Be careful or I'll tell you my red nose clown joke.



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 12:01
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Not really.

Winning uncontested lineouts in the middle of the park is pretty much a formality. The ones we lose are the ones in the 22 where the opposition actually go up. you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realise that we lose far too many lineouts near the line, or if we win them it's becuase we take a no-risk, low-pay-off route to 2 and the opposition defend our maul with ease. Looking at the average stats for lineouts in a whole match is completely missing the point - it's the pressure ones we're losing.

So the ones we lose are an issue, that's not under dispute. But the ones we win are now measured on what happens after we've won them?

Sounds like you're having digs again.

Of course they are. A top notch lineout operator will throw to the back where his backs can be closer to the ball and his forwards have more room to execute a drive for the line, giving his team options open and blind. The ones we lose are often overthrows at the back. This is a higher risk, but much better payoff if it's done right.

If you throw to the front you're much more likely to win the lineout, but is much easier to defend against. See the WC against Wales.

This is pretty basic stuff, and you know it all too well, so sounds like you're being sanctimonious/disingenuous again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/01/2018 12:10 by RodneyRegis.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
Scaramouche (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 12:19
Finessed criticism. Good work!


Sorry, have to write this as well so the one liner police dont get upset.....



If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

 
Re: Positives and Negatives
T-Bone (IP Logged)
18 January, 2018 12:37
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Quinky Kin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Scaramouche
Faced by overwhelming evidence, remains unconvinced...

Not really.

Winning uncontested lineouts in the middle of the park is pretty much a formality. The ones we lose are the ones in the 22 where the opposition actually go up. you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realise that we lose far too many lineouts near the line, or if we win them it's becuase we take a no-risk, low-pay-off route to 2 and the opposition defend our maul with ease. Looking at the average stats for lineouts in a whole match is completely missing the point - it's the pressure ones we're losing.

So the ones we lose are an issue, that's not under dispute. But the ones we win are now measured on what happens after we've won them?

Sounds like you're having digs again.

Of course they are. A top notch lineout operator will throw to the back where his backs can be closer to the ball and his forwards have more room to execute a drive for the line, giving his team options open and blind. The ones we lose are often overthrows at the back. This is a higher risk, but much better payoff if it's done right.

If you throw to the front you're much more likely to win the lineout, but is much easier to defend against. See the WC against Wales.

This is pretty basic stuff, and you know it all too well, so sounds like you're being sanctimonious/disingenuous again.

This

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