rugbyunion
Latest News:

Quinssa WebsiteQuins News from News NowQuins Official Site


Welsh disallowed try
Keith Jenner (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:15
Hoping someone can help with an argument I have been happening.

I didn’t think that the Welsh disallowed try should have been given because it really wasn’t clear who actually grounded it out of Antony Watson and the welsh player. If anything, I’d have given it to Watson as he seemed to have two hands on the ball rather than the Welsh one hand.

I’m far from an expert on the details of the rules, but I noticed that in the commentary and analysis they completely disregarded Watson being there and concentrated totally on the Welsh grounding.

If the Welsh player touched it first and was still touching it when it hit the ground then does it matter whether someone else also touched it, perhaps with a better grip? I don’t know the answer, but was really surprised that Watson’s involvement seemed to be totally ignored. It should have been mentioned if only to explain that it wasn’t relevant, but it was almost as if nobody even noticed he was there.

The fact that the try wasn’t given leads me to believe that it was relevant, as I’m pretty sure the Welsh player did have contact when the ball hit the ground.

Can anyone enlighten me.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:19
The rule is (according to ITV) that the first person touching it over the line gets the try.

I'm therefore not sure how it wasn't a try.

Watson did well to get there to put doubt in the refs mind though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2018 19:20 by talkshowhost86.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Hellequin (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:19
The only thing I can think of is if the TMO thought the welsh player pushed it forward rather than down or that his hand hid some previous downward contact from Watson.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
blucherquin (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:19
I don’t get it at all - was at game and haven’t heard any analysis but looked a clear try to me

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Keith Jenner (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:27
Thanks. That would appear to suggest that it was a try, although the TV I was watching on wasn’t good, so maybe the Welsh player could have lost contact and then retouched it after Watson had done so. The possibility Of that is probably why it wasn’t given.

I’m still surprised that nobody even seemed to mention Watson being there. I started to wonder whether they had even noticed him. Given how many casual viewers were watching they should surely have explained why it wasn’t relevant.

Maybe they did and I missed it.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
DOK (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:45
You can study it over and over here

Does the Welsh hand simply dislodge the ball further forward, rather than apply downward pressure?

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Fursty (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 19:46
I found the total insulation that it cost the Welsh the game from the ITV pundits quite annoying, it was at most a 4 point swing and more likely a 2 point swing.

For what it’s worth I thought it was a try

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Keith Jenner (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 20:03
Quote:
DOK
You can study it over and over here
Does the Welsh hand simply dislodge the ball further forward, rather than apply downward pressure?

Thanks for that. Looking at it with a better picture, it certainly does look like a try to me.

However, on the main point of my post, the fact that the TMO stated that the first grounding was by England, the commentators ignoring Watson’s involvement seems particularly odd.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Keith Jenner (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 20:05
Quote:
Fursty
I found the total insulation that it cost the Welsh the game from the ITV pundits quite annoying, it was at most a 4 point swing and more likely a 2 point swing.
For what it’s worth I thought it was a try

Very good point. They went back for the advantage and took the 3 points didn’t they.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 20:06
Thought I heard the TMO say that the Welsh player had no control over the ball hence it was a knock forward. Clearly there was no downward pressure. So the right decision, although some will disagree.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Keith Jenner (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 20:16
Quote:
QuinAlan
Thought I heard the TMO say that the Welsh player had no control over the ball hence it was a knock forward. Clearly there was no downward pressure. So the right decision, although some will disagree.

The exact wording from the TMO was:

“The ball has come off the knee of the Welsh player, but has not been clearly grounded. The first grounding is by England.”

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
D-Quins (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 20:22
He said there was not clear and obvious grounding of the ball, hence he was unsure who was in control when it hit the ground.

The question was try Yes or No, if it had been any reason I can't award the try it would have been a try.

to me the Ref was generous to Wales all day long but may be if he had been more generous with his question then they would have got it.

It was not in the last minutes so you can never say what would have happened after that if it had been given. England looked the most dangerous team today to me, if they had been forced to go for it they may have been more destructive.

Two weeks until the Scots, lets hope for a dry sunny day. They of course will be praying for wind rain etc

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Mancquin (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 21:50
Neither player had control of the ball and control rather than downward pressure is the criterion by which TMOs decide under the most recent ruling. No try.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Saintquin (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 21:58
Why do people keep going on about downward pressure? That law doesn't exist!
I'd have giving the Try!



Harlequins, (was once) probably the best rugby club in the world!
(Sm115)(Sm115)(Sm115)

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
wheeliequin (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 22:03
I didn't think giving the ball a pat on the side with no obvious control was a try

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
poorfour (IP Logged)
10 February, 2018 23:56
The first angle shown in the stadium (and on most TV replays, by the sound of things) made it look like a try. There was then a second angle shown, which made it look pretty clear that Watson had two hands on the ball before there was Welsh contact.

That second angle I haven't seen replayed on twitter, but I thought it was the decisive one.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
DOK (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 00:05
Well I think all this discussion is sufficient to show that a TMO could not answer a "Try Yes or No" question with any degree of certainty.

Had it been a "any reason not to award..." then things might have been different.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
T-Bone (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 01:16
I thought it should have been a try. If that was England trying to score if have been pretty annoyed. As an aside i thought graces wasn't at his best. Presumably forgotten about offside and rolling away.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
11 February, 2018 06:17
Quote:
Saintquin
Why do people keep going on about downward pressure? That law doesn't exist!
I'd have giving the Try!

Law 21 grounding the ball:
1 the ball can be grounded in goal if:
a by holding it and touching the ground with it
Or
b by pressing down on it with hand(s)or arm(s) or front of the players body waist to neck.
3 an attacking player grounding the ball in in goal scores a try

This would indicate downward pressure is needed and so no try from me

Also as was said above they took the easy 3 and the try was out wide so may have only made a 2 point difference.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 06:54
This thread is based upon a false premise.

It wasn't a try, so there was no try to disallow.

We pay thousands of pounds to experts with tens of thousands of pounds worth of equipment to adjudicate on these matters.

If he says it wasn't a try.

Then.

It wasn't a try.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Boffboy (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 07:23
Who cares

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
QuickerQuin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 07:42
Quote:
Boffboy
Who cares

Obviously, you do, because you went to the trouble of replying.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Mayor West (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 09:25
Not a try. Poorfour's explanation is my view. Wouldn't have been too disappointed if it was ours not given in the same circumstances .

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 09:43
Quote:
Saintquin
Why do people keep going on about downward pressure? That law doesn't exist!
I'd have giving the Try!

22.1 Grounding the ball

Grounding the ball
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Mayor West (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 10:32
I've just heard on the radio that there are conclusive pictures of the ball being grounded. All the newspapers have these pictures so can anybody put them on here to clear things up.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
tigerburnie (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 14:42
The TMO clearly said that the ball was not grounded by the welsh player, tough, could have gone either way, but it didn't and lets face it Wales had enough of the game to win it, but they couldn't.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
1908 (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 18:44
I thought Evans was in front of the kicker anyway.

Worried about England. They should have put away that Welsh team quite comfortably. They seemed to stop playing with tempo and allowed the Welsh to come on to them.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
blucherquin (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 18:54
Quote:
1908
I thought Evans was in front of the kicker anyway.
Worried about England. They should have put away that Welsh team quite comfortably. They seemed to stop playing with tempo and allowed the Welsh to come on to them.

That’s known as the “Wrigglesworth effect”

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
11 February, 2018 19:57
We very rarely play well against Wales. Not sure why.

Should be expecting to put them to the sword most of the time, they are a massively overrated side, as shown by their pathetic results vs SH teams.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Boffboy (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 05:09
Shouldn’t this be on an England rugby page ?

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
cwrich (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 09:51
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
1908
I thought Evans was in front of the kicker anyway.
Worried about England. They should have put away that Welsh team quite comfortably. They seemed to stop playing with tempo and allowed the Welsh to come on to them.

That’s known as the “Wrigglesworth effect”

Oh the irony ... what you would have given for the WIgglesworth effect yesterday

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 10:02
Quote:
cwrich
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
1908
I thought Evans was in front of the kicker anyway.
Worried about England. They should have put away that Welsh team quite comfortably. They seemed to stop playing with tempo and allowed the Welsh to come on to them.

That’s known as the “Wrigglesworth effect”

Oh the irony ... what you would have given for the WIgglesworth effect yesterday

It’s not that ironic. He’s a superb premiership scrum half but wasn’t up to speed for international rugby.

Hardly like I was saying he couldn’t have helped us be less than appalling against a 14 man team.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 10:14
I've seen some suggestion that there's video/pictures that show that Evans actually knocked the ball with his finger before his shin/knee.

Anyone else seen/heard this as that would make the grounding issue largely irrelevant.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
T-Bone (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 10:30
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I've seen some suggestion that there's video/pictures that show that Evans actually knocked the ball with his finger before his shin/knee.
Anyone else seen/heard this as that would make the grounding issue largely irrelevant.

Yes, seen the video now, and the ball clearly touches his hand. What you can't really tell though, as it is on super slo-mo and zoomed in, is whether the ball then goes backwards or forwards onto his knee. Arguably moving at that pace, it must have gone forwards or he'd have overrun it.

Anyway, it wasn't given, they got the 3 and there was plenty of time left.

If I was a Welsh fan IU'd be more annoyed that they failed to finish the try where Underhill put in a superb tackle. The tackle was amazing, but I think the player should have been able to finish

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 10:36
Quote:
T-Bone
Quote:
talkshowhost86
I've seen some suggestion that there's video/pictures that show that Evans actually knocked the ball with his finger before his shin/knee.
Anyone else seen/heard this as that would make the grounding issue largely irrelevant.

Yes, seen the video now, and the ball clearly touches his hand. What you can't really tell though, as it is on super slo-mo and zoomed in, is whether the ball then goes backwards or forwards onto his knee. Arguably moving at that pace, it must have gone forwards or he'd have overrun it.

Anyway, it wasn't given, they got the 3 and there was plenty of time left.

If I was a Welsh fan IU'd be more annoyed that they failed to finish the try where Underhill put in a superb tackle. The tackle was amazing, but I think the player should have been able to finish

Do you have a link to the video? Would just be interested to see it as I'm not sure I've seen an angle showing that so far.

I agree otherwise though. Wales weren't whinging when Evans scored off a massive forward pass last week that the TMO missed so double standards and all that.

 
Re: Welsh disallowed try
Dave L (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 10:47
No, the rules are - England are whingers whereas Celtic nations are plucky underdogs who deserve all of the luck they get. (Sm100)

There's enough doubt in the passage of play IMO to mean that the correct decision was probably reached anyway.

England will need to improve and I'd like to think that EJ's options will increase over the coming weeks with Nathan Hughes, Marler and Sinckler all becoming available. Hughes coming back adds a heavy duty carrier and takes a bit of the pressure off of Mako on that front. England plain miss Billy V though.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?