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Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:17
Firstly, I missed the Wasps game yesterday so can't comment on it. I had intended to watch but there was a change of plan and by the sounds of it I was lucky to miss it.

Anyhow, reading threads on here I notice a few interesting things:

1) Blaming individuals - I don't know how many people on here actually ply or played the game, or to what standard, but have you ever known a game where one person single-handedly lost a match? Players may have a poor game, but it's a team effort.

2) There are two teams in a match. It's sad that we seem to rarely admit that the other team played well when we lose; it's always that we were terrible, defence is useless, DoR is useless etc etc. Sometimes these points may be true, but at least give credit to the opposition.

3) This is the most grating point for me. Criticising players for their performance is fair enough (although I doubt any of us could do better), and a fair critique is reasonable. But at what point, and why, do posters think it's reasonable to start insulting and abusing professional sports players and coaches? I glanced at one thread to see Charlie Matthews being called "eeyore"; he recently had a whole thread claiming he is a "useless donkey"; JK is regularly abused, including for his physical appearance. Frankly it's embarrassing as the posters would doubtless not raise a squeak if they spoke to the individuals in person. And for the record, these are decent people, doing a job - if you meet them you'll find that almost without fail they are really nice people.


That's it really. Rant over. I just find it disheartening that (presumably) adult fans think it's OK to insult people from behind a keyboard. But if that makes you feel better, or brave, or clever, then perhaps that says something about you.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Cookie (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:23
Ah, QK, we've been expecting you.

Totally agree on individual criticism. Won't participate unless it is to defend the player in question (although not always possible!).

But I think you should watch the game (or at least the highlights) as without doing so you won't understand the level of frustration from that performance. And Wasps have been given credit in places.

But this was another shocking result and (worse) a totally disjointed performance with all the hallmarks of what we are now - weak in defence/ill-disciplined/lacking in basic structures etc.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
T-Bone (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:33
I agree that personal insults against a player or coach are uncalled for. I was guilty of it this weekend on Facebook for which I feel rather embarrassed.

I think criticising an individual player's performance or skills is acceptable though. I complete agree that it is very, very rare that one player alone can cost a win. Botica v Northampton at home maybe, but even then we should have been 2 scores clear by then.

A player having a shocking performance can play a very large part in a loss though, just as a player can contribute hugely to a win, especially when they are in positions where their influence is pivotal. The influence of a hooker, 9 and 10 is greater than other individual positions, so a particularly strong or weak showing will have a disproportionate impact.

Of course no player goes out and tries to lose us or anything, that's just hyperbole used in the heat of the moment.

As for whether supporters could do better, in 99.99% of cases no, but that is pretty irrelevant. If I do my job badly I wouldn't expect to be free from criticism just because someone in a different profession can't do my job as well as me. These aren't children trying their best at the local club, but well paid professional sportsmen, so I'm afraid that part of accepting your pay cheque is accepting that supporters who pay good money to watch will judge your performance.

Finally, as for praising the winning side rather than just criticising Quins when we lose, I think a lot of supporters are very happy to do so, and if Quins play well but lose to a better team most supporters readily accept that, but sometimes our performance is so awful that the opposition don't really need to play that well. Wasps did play well, especially given their numerical disadvantage, but we didn't make them work for their win at all.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Dark Pies (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:37
Agree its bad form to single-out individual players and pin everything on them. For example, saying Lewis should 'never play for Quins again', which is the same as saying sack him, is not very pleasant.
But he was undeniably poor yesterday and last week. I think there's a middle ground where we agree players don't always perform well but don't launch personal attacks or public calls for our players to be hung, drawn and quartered.

Bit different with JK as he's the boss and the buck stops with him. The comments about his weight and appearance are very childish and inappropriate though IMO.

To answer your question "have you ever known a game where one person single-handedly lost a match?" I'll just say 'Botica vs Saints' and leave it at that...

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:39
"3) This is the most grating point for me. Criticising players for their performance is fair enough (although I doubt any of us could do better), and a fair critique is reasonable. But at what point, and why, do posters think it's reasonable to start insulting and abusing professional sports players and coaches? I glanced at one thread to see Charlie Matthews being called "eeyore"; he recently had a whole thread claiming he is a "useless donkey"; JK is regularly abused, including for his physical appearance. Frankly it's embarrassing as the posters would doubtless not raise a squeak if they spoke to the individuals in person. And for the record, these are decent people, doing a job - if you meet them you'll find that almost without fail they are really nice people."

Considering I am not a professional player, then no I could probably not do better, in the same way I am pretty sure they would not do better at my job!!! Ive said before, I have no issues with Quins losing when we play well and can say yep, better team won. My issue is that it is quite often these days, teams do not have to play that well to beat us.

Ive got to agree with the last part of Cookies post. Yesterday was a complete disaster. I totally agree with you about the pathetic comments regarding peoples appearance etc, no place for it.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
thomh (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 13:56
Quote:
Quinky Kin

2) There are two teams in a match. It's sad that we seem to rarely admit that the other team played well when we lose; it's always that we were terrible, defence is useless, DoR is useless etc etc. Sometimes these points may be true, but at least give credit to the opposition.

Agree with a lot of your post. On this one, I would just note that on this occasion I think people are generally impressed with the Wasps performance from Sunday. However, our squad is good enough that there shouldn't be a club side in the country capable of dismantling them with only 14 men. That can happen only if Quins massively underperform.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 14:01
I agree entirely on abuse - i personally don’t think Lewis should play for us again because he’s not good enough. But it’s only my view - expressed without abuse - and if others don’t agree that’s the point of a discussion board.

As I said on the other thread - if I was over the top then I apologise but I was angry. But don’t agree you can’t criticise a player. We rightly criticised Marler when he lost us the game the other week with his red card.

No I couldn’t play rugby better than a professional rugby player but that’s not the point - it doesn’t make me unable to criticise their performance. I’m sure they’d be rubbish at my job.

For example I can’t sing like Adele, but I’m allowed to think she sounds like a fog horn being let off into a small bucket.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 14:12
Everyone should agree on the personal insult stuff.

It's childish and not needed.

To be fair though most on here don't descend to those levels (as Blucherquin) says.

But the JK brigade will often confuse questioning a players performance with personal abuse (very different things) and then take the moral high ground which is very tedious.

Quote:
HonkyTonk
"3) This is the most grating point for me. Criticising players for their performance is fair enough (although I doubt any of us could do better), and a fair critique is reasonable. But at what point, and why, do posters think it's reasonable to start insulting and abusing professional sports players and coaches? I glanced at one thread to see Charlie Matthews being called "eeyore"; he recently had a whole thread claiming he is a "useless donkey"; JK is regularly abused, including for his physical appearance. Frankly it's embarrassing as the posters would doubtless not raise a squeak if they spoke to the individuals in person. And for the record, these are decent people, doing a job - if you meet them you'll find that almost without fail they are really nice people."
Considering I am not a professional player, then no I could probably not do better, in the same way I am pretty sure they would not do better at my job!!! Ive said before, I have no issues with Quins losing when we play well and can say yep, better team won. My issue is that it is quite often these days, teams do not have to play that well to beat us.

And as for the idea that we can't criticise because we aren't professional rugby players? Lolz.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2018 14:16 by talkshowhost86.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Stooperman (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 14:18
I think its fair to criticise individual shortcomings in skill, application or attitude. Marler rightly came in for a hammering for his silly red card which almost certainly cost us a game, & Lewis rightly comes in for criticism for his lack of skill in getting the ball quickly and accurately to the best player on the team.

In addition, Lewis's performance was doubly frustrating because many of us non professional rugby playing non coaching jo publics were able to see before the game that Kitto would have been a much better option to start at 9.

In summary, unless there was a darn good reason not to start Kitto (injury etc), JK's decision making can be called into question - and not for the first time.

Like many others, I can't see us getting significantly better without some changes to the coaching set up. The first and very obvious place to make changes would be the defence coach. Sorry Nick you're a top bloke and a Quins legend, but the defence is rubbush and hasn't improved ove the last season and a half.

So I think this is a reasonable post in which I have singled out individuals (Marler, Lewis, JK and Easter ) for criticism, but without being unneccessarily abusive and giving reasons for why I think the criticism is justified.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 14:41
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 14:56
I'm not suggesting for one second that players' performances shouldn't be criticised, but it could be done it a more level-headed way. Lewis earns a living as a Premiership rugby player and has been employed by several clubs. He may not be the best, but there is only one Danny Care. And he has had a few decent games for us, although the last few haven't been very good.

I'm also not suggesting that because none of us are anywhere near as good then we can't criticise, just that we should be a tad more realistic (see above). Lewis is a stop-gap, he's not a Lions contender. But he does his best and that's all he can do.

I'm glad that nearly everyone agrees about the abuse though, except for this keyboard warrior comment:

Quote:
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Cookie (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 15:11
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I'm not suggesting for one second that players' performances shouldn't be criticised, but it could be done it a more level-headed way. Lewis earns a living as a Premiership rugby player and has been employed by several clubs. He may not be the best, but there is only one Danny Care. And he has had a few decent games for us, although the last few haven't been very good.
I'm also not suggesting that because none of us are anywhere near as good then we can't criticise, just that we should be a tad more realistic (see above). Lewis is a stop-gap, he's not a Lions contender. But he does his best and that's all he can do.

I'm glad that nearly everyone agrees about the abuse though, except for this keyboard warrior comment:

Quote:
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

Hold up! He's not a stop-gap. Kitto is. Lewis is Dickson's replacement and has been here over a year.

Also, intrigued to know when he had these 'few decent games' - yesterday was only his 9th! Get those rose-tinted specs off!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2018 15:15 by Cookie.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:04
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I'm not suggesting for one second that players' performances shouldn't be criticised, but it could be done it a more level-headed way. Lewis earns a living as a Premiership rugby player and has been employed by several clubs. He may not be the best, but there is only one Danny Care. And he has had a few decent games for us, although the last few haven't been very good.
I'm also not suggesting that because none of us are anywhere near as good then we can't criticise, just that we should be a tad more realistic (see above). Lewis is a stop-gap, he's not a Lions contender. But he does his best and that's all he can do.

I'm glad that nearly everyone agrees about the abuse though, except for this keyboard warrior comment:

Quote:
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

As above - not a stop gap, an actual signing.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:11
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I'm not suggesting for one second that players' performances shouldn't be criticised, but it could be done it a more level-headed way. Lewis earns a living as a Premiership rugby player and has been employed by several clubs. He may not be the best, but there is only one Danny Care. And he has had a few decent games for us, although the last few haven't been very good.
I'm also not suggesting that because none of us are anywhere near as good then we can't criticise, just that we should be a tad more realistic (see above). Lewis is a stop-gap, he's not a Lions contender. But he does his best and that's all he can do.

I'm glad that nearly everyone agrees about the abuse though, except for this keyboard warrior comment:

Quote:
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

Why is it a keyboard warrior comment? Your latest proclamation that we shouldn't criticise individual players is laughable. Just because you can't trot out your tired old line about table position anymore, rather than watch the game and decide for yourself, you've gone off on a holier-than-thou rant about people having the temerity to expect our players to be able to play to an acceptable standard.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:16
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Quote:
Quinky Kin
I'm not suggesting for one second that players' performances shouldn't be criticised, but it could be done it a more level-headed way. Lewis earns a living as a Premiership rugby player and has been employed by several clubs. He may not be the best, but there is only one Danny Care. And he has had a few decent games for us, although the last few haven't been very good.
I'm also not suggesting that because none of us are anywhere near as good then we can't criticise, just that we should be a tad more realistic (see above). Lewis is a stop-gap, he's not a Lions contender. But he does his best and that's all he can do.

I'm glad that nearly everyone agrees about the abuse though, except for this keyboard warrior comment:

Quote:
Oh for heaven's sake. Get off the pulpit.

Why is it a keyboard warrior comment? Your latest proclamation that we shouldn't criticise individual players is laughable. Just because you can't trot out your tired old line about table position anymore, rather than watch the game and decide for yourself, you've gone off on a holier-than-thou rant about people having the temerity to expect our players to be able to play to an acceptable standard.

My post isn't about the Wasps game. It's about CAW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2018 16:16 by Quinky Kin.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:21
Perhaps, but it's still laughable.

The idea that because posters would be unlikely to say something to a player, they shouldn't discuss it on here is just silly. It would be incredibly rude to tell a player he had a stinker, it's not rude to suggest it on a forum about the club.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:46
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Perhaps, but it's still laughable.
The idea that because posters would be unlikely to say something to a player, they shouldn't discuss it on here is just silly. It would be incredibly rude to tell a player he had a stinker, it's not rude to suggest it on a forum about the club.

Quite -- a food critic doesn't march into a kitchen and tell Gordon Ramsay his quennell's were terrible.

Nor indeed would you tell Quinnell.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 16:53
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Perhaps, but it's still laughable.
The idea that because posters would be unlikely to say something to a player, they shouldn't discuss it on here is just silly. It would be incredibly rude to tell a player he had a stinker, it's not rude to suggest it on a forum about the club.

I repeat - I believe that criticising a player is fine. Abuse isn't. I believe it was you who referred to Charlie Matthews as "eeyore" - you think that's acceptable? Personally I think it's insulting and childish.

If you think it's fine, that's your prerogative. I sense you may be in the minority.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
GP2110 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:17
I'm pretty sure Matthews is big enough and ugly enough to get over it.

If a player plays terribly, he has to accept that he may get criticism from fans. Welcome to life as a professional sportsman.

To suggest that fans can't criticise individual players is nonsense.

Having to deal with the press / media / fans is the reason why sportsmen get paid as much as they do. Calling someone a donkey is hardly insult of the century.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:18
You know full well it was me (Sm22)

Meh, I'm not proud of it, but I thought it was pretty apt given his performance. I've stuck up for Charlie plenty of times on here (including in that thread), I'd hardly call it abusive.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Cookie (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:20
Can we get back to these 'few decent games' our 'stop gap' scrum half is meant to have had.......??

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
talkshowhost86 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:28
It does feel like the 'abuse of players' issue is being used a bit as a Trumpian distraction here to try and deflect from the bigger issues within the club.

Pretty much everyone agrees abuse of players is unacceptable, even those who have lapsed into it on occasions. It's not really an issue that should be up for debate.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Cookie (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:34
Quote:
talkshowhost86
It does feel like the 'abuse of players' issue is being used a bit as a Trumpian distraction here to try and deflect from the bigger issues within the club.
Pretty much everyone agrees abuse of players is unacceptable, even those who have lapsed into it on occasions. It's not really an issue that should be up for debate.

Precisely. Lewis is, I'm sure a genuinely honest pro, but it was flagged as a bad signing as he was Exeter's 3rd choice when they kept all their 9s during the 6Nations and he wasn't what we needed as a back up for DC (with Mulchrone).

Unfortunately for him, when he starts as a replacement for Care and gets found out, some will use that to demonstrate the sorry state of affairs in certain key positions and use it as an example of the direction of the club.

Harsh, maybe. Real life, though.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Fursty (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:37
Lewis isn’t great - and I agree he’s s poor signing. However saying ‘Lewis Out’ is tantamount to saying sack him for a poor performance which isn’t really on.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
RodneyRegis (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 17:52
I'll say it again, it's a message board. Why is it 'really not on'?

And it's not for a poor performance, it's for being patently not up to snuff.

I'm sure he's a wonderful guy who helps old ladies across the road and gives generously to charity, but he was flagged up by several posters as a terrible signing and he hasn't failed to disappoint.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2018 17:57 by RodneyRegis.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
GP2110 (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 18:05
is it any different to JK out after every game?

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
blucherquin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 18:10
Quote:
Fursty
Lewis isn’t great - and I agree he’s s poor signing. However saying ‘Lewis Out’ is tantamount to saying sack him for a poor performance which isn’t really on.

I called it “Lewis out” coz I think he shouldn’t be playing and it’s a play on “JK out”

No I don’t want anyone “sacked” from their job - having been sacked from several myself over the last 25 years - but you’re making it sound like I want my local postie sacked for dropping letters in a puddle.

Really not sure where this imaginary moral high ground lies - I hope he has a very happy life but I don’t think he’s good enough as our replacement 9.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
QuinAlan (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 18:19
We praise players when they play really well, so why should'nt we be able to criticise them when they have a stinker..?? Thats just absurd. If I was a professionbal player & played as poorly as Lewis has done recently then I would expect a full on dressing down from my coach & some harsh criticism from the fans. As a professional I would however take it on the chin & make darned sure I played hell of a lot better in the future. We dont know any reasons why he may have been so poor, is he carrying an injury? If so then its more baffling why we didnt start with Kitto, but the club dont tell us very much, leaving fans to make some often incorrect assumptions, & calling a big 2nd row a donkey is hardly abuse.

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Jammy Git (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 18:42
Lewis is a terrible player in a crucial position on a pitch with a teenager relying on his service. I don't want to see him starting for Quins outside of a proper emergency because he makes us a lot worse and his entire pro career that I've seen has been very low quality.

He was an awful signing, an awful selection, and as a fan of the club I think it's important that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot by continuing to select him.

No-one was upset when PDJ left and Lewis is worse.



O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 18:58
No, at least Lewis made it onto the pitch!!!

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
ArchQuin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 20:52
QK - watch the match and focus on the performance rather than what other posters opinions are - tell us about the positives that most of us didn't see 😀

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 23:32
Quote:
GP2110
I'm pretty sure Matthews is big enough and ugly enough to get over it.

That's not really the issue. Either you think it's OK to abuse someone, or you don't. I don't. It's all a bit too "football" for me.

But hey, apparently he earns good money so it's OK confused smiley

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Quinky Kin (IP Logged)
12 February, 2018 23:36
Quote:
ArchQuin
QK - watch the match and focus on the performance rather than what other posters opinions are - tell us about the positives that most of us didn't see 😀

If I get a chance in the coming week, I will. And I don't have an issue with critiquing a player's game, or the team as a whole. I try to do so objectively. But this thread wasn't started in response to the Wasps game. Every time we lose, threads degenerate into abuse of individual players by some posters. Rugby fans are said to be mostly decent people; we're even subject to campaigns to "respect the ref". Why should it be ok to show disrespect to players and coaches?

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
GP2110 (IP Logged)
13 February, 2018 05:56
I think we have very different views of what abuse is

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
Bolly-Quin (IP Logged)
13 February, 2018 08:31
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Perhaps, but it's still laughable.
The idea that because posters would be unlikely to say something to a player, they shouldn't discuss it on here is just silly. It would be incredibly rude to tell a player he had a stinker, it's not rude to suggest it on a forum about the club.

Quite -- a food critic doesn't march into a kitchen and tell Gordon Ramsay his quennell's were terrible.

Nor indeed would you tell Quinnell.

Mmm - not sure:- a rugby correspondent wouldn’t go into the dressing room and tell them they played badly, but a punter should go in and tell Ramsey his quenelles were poor as he’s paying for them! Likewise a STH?

If Scott Quinnell can make quenelles, I’d eat them!

 
Re: Criticism of individual players
blucherquin (IP Logged)
13 February, 2018 09:10
Quote:
Bolly-Quin
Quote:
blucherquin
Quote:
RodneyRegis
Perhaps, but it's still laughable.
The idea that because posters would be unlikely to say something to a player, they shouldn't discuss it on here is just silly. It would be incredibly rude to tell a player he had a stinker, it's not rude to suggest it on a forum about the club.

Quite -- a food critic doesn't march into a kitchen and tell Gordon Ramsay his quennell's were terrible.

Nor indeed would you tell Quinnell.

Mmm - not sure:- a rugby correspondent wouldn’t go into the dressing room and tell them they played badly, but a punter should go in and tell Ramsey his quenelles were poor as he’s paying for them! Likewise a STH?

If Scott Quinnell can make quenelles, I’d eat them!

Well look, either way to claim I'm abusing Lewis is silly. I think he's been very very poor and had a shocker on Sunday and I really hope we don't play him again, but hey, who knows with Quins these days.

On a related note there were some "fans" aged about 20/21, a lad and two girls over by the east stand pitch side post match outside the Kings Bar, shouting "come on Kingston show yourself, Kingston out, come out you fat loser" (or similar).

They quickly shut up when they saw the looks they got from people around them.


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